Vanadis 4 Extra

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Johnnie1801
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Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Johnnie1801 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:58 am

Just wondering if anyone has tried Vanadis 4 Extra, it looks similar to M4 but maybe a bit tougher. Any chance we'll ever see this steel in a Spyderco Mule or folder?
Currently enjoying Spyderco's in - S30V, VG10, Super Blue, Cruwear x4, CTS XHP, S110V x2, M4 x3, S35VN, CTS 204P x2, S90V, HAP 40, K390, RWL34, MAXAMET, ZDP 189, REX 45


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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Doc Dan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:09 am

Looks like a good steel for the Urban LW to me.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Ankerson » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:21 am

Johnnie1801 wrote:Just wondering if anyone has tried Vanadis 4 Extra, it looks similar to M4 but maybe a bit tougher. Any chance we'll ever see this steel in a Spyderco Mule or folder?

V4E and CPM 4V are about the same.

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/shop/c ... rbon-steel

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Johnnie1801 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:41 am

Thanks for the link Jim. If it's similar to 4V then I'm hoping Spyderco can get some to play with but this quote doesn't give me much confidence :(
CPM 4V is very close to the composition of Bohler Uddeholm Vanadis 4 Extra. It has better edge holding than CPM 3V and is tougher than M4.

I think Crucible was brilliant to make this steel. V4E is an excellent steel with one problem. It is very hard to buy from BU. We’ve been trying to get this steel for years and have only succeeded in getting a few small pieces. Crucible recognized the demand and made CPM 4V. V4E has the advantage of its third generation particle metallurgy. CPM 4V has the advantage of being available for sale.
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Last edited by Johnnie1801 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Currently enjoying Spyderco's in - S30V, VG10, Super Blue, Cruwear x4, CTS XHP, S110V x2, M4 x3, S35VN, CTS 204P x2, S90V, HAP 40, K390, RWL34, MAXAMET, ZDP 189, REX 45


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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby BrianMcCord » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:49 am

Doc Dan wrote:Looks like a good steel for the Urban LW to me.
+1
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby TomAiello » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:54 am

I think V4e and CPM 4v are basically identical, just made by different companies.

I'm really looking forward to the Ankerson Bowie, and I recently picked up a Bradford Guardian 3 in v4e, which I've been really impressed with so far (I've been EDCing it and no folder for the past two weeks).

I think CPM 4v/v4e are going to be great steel, especially for larger blades, and especially for fixed blades. I'd be interested in an Urban sprint in v4e, for sure, but I'd also like to see more fixed blades in it. Bushcraft or Southfork would be very interesting in this steel.

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby ikaretababy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:39 pm

I would REALLY like to see the proficient in either 4ve or cpm 4v

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby steelcity16 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:06 pm

I've been reading up on this one and it sounds like a great steel similar to 4V. I'd be a buyer of any sprints in this steel (and 4V...and 3V). Shaman, Manix, Native, Military, PM2 all sound good to me!
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:48 pm

Bumping for some V4E. I think a DLC V4E Millie sounds like a winner.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby curlyhairedboy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:18 am

Definitely interesting to hear the equivalence to 4V. Now that bowie is sounding real good...
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Slash » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:07 pm

I have a tomahawk made with v4e. Hoping I'll never need to use it to rescue anyone. But, I don't think it will break if used for such a task. Did chop up some wood and it held up as it should have.
Last edited by Slash on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Wanimator » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:12 am

Shaman or Manix 2 XL in 4v...

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:02 am

Wanimator wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:12 am
Shaman or Manix 2 XL in 4v...

I hear ya. I hope V4E or 4V hit all of the larger models. Manix XL, Shaman, Manix Backlock, Military, Native etc. I would EDC a Native LW and/or Manix LW in these steels as well. The Para 3 in 4V sold out in under an hour. Lets see how some of these other models fair.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Bodog » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:51 am

I like vanadis 4E better than 4v. There's more going on than it shows on paper. Is it a giant difference? Meh. But us steel junkies aren't looking for giant differences. V4E takes a better polish and the edge holds together better. I don't cut miles and miles of rope so i can't say one is better than the other in that regard. In the ways i use knives V4E performs better than 4V. V4E has been hard to get in the US. It's a steel BU itself recommends for knife blades, along with M390 and elmax. 4V isn't bad but if it says anything I'd rather have M4 more than 4V and V4E more than M4. But the differences wouldn't probably be that apparent in light everyday use. The same can be said for a lot of steels.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Barmoley » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:02 am

This is very interesting. I only have experience with 4v. Do the knives you are comparing have same geometry, similar heat treat and were sharpened the same? On paper the steels are very similar, but the production process is somewhat different.

Best regards.

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Xplorer » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:05 am

I've recently made a couple of 4V knives and a couple V4E knives. Prior to working with the steel, everything I had read was leading me to believe V4E was somehow going to prove to be the slightly better knife steel of the two. Since I make knives from Uddeholm Vanax and Bohler M390 already I was leaning toward sticking with those companies and using V4E as well.
Now that I've had a chance to play with heat treating variations and made a few knives to test I have a somewhat different view. I am seeing very impressive test results with both steels but I just don't see a measurable difference between them in terms of cutting & chopping tests as well as overall edge stability and break strength. Testing hasn't shown me any realistically discernible difference between the two. There are very slight differences, but the differences are so minor that I don't think anyone would be able to tell one from the other when using the two steels. I would liken it to the perceivable difference in using S30V and S35VN, there just isn't one. I am confident that if there is a difference in performance between a 4V knife and a V4E knife, the difference has far more to due with the heat treat than the steel.
I generally don't concern myself with the cost of steel because I make custom knives one at a time, I want them to exhibit exceptional performance, and I can simply factor the cost into the price. But, when my tests show the two steels are basically equal and the cost of V4E is literally 40% higher than 4V I find it really hard to justify buying V4E. I can't see passing on (or absorbing) that extra cost for effectively no benefit.
All that said...other than price and availability, I have nothing whatsoever negative to say about V4E. It's a fantastic steel (one of my favorites) and so is 4V.

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Bodog » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:12 am

Xplorer wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:05 am
I've recently made a couple of 4V knives and a couple V4E knives. Prior to working with the steel, everything I had read was leading me to believe V4E was somehow going to prove to be the slightly better knife steel of the two. Since I make knives from Uddeholm Vanax and Bohler M390 already I was leaning toward sticking with those companies and using V4E as well.
Now that I've had a chance to play with heat treating variations and made a few knives to test I have a somewhat different view. I am seeing very impressive test results with both steels but I just don't see a measurable difference between them in terms of cutting & chopping tests as well as overall edge stability and break strength. Testing hasn't shown me any realistically discernible difference between the two. There are very slight differences, but the differences are so minor that I don't think anyone would be able to tell one from the other when using the two steels. I would liken it to the perceivable difference in using S30V and S35VN, there just isn't one. I am confident that if there is a difference in performance between a 4V knife and a V4E knife, the difference has far more to due with the heat treat than the steel.
I generally don't concern myself with the cost of steel because I make custom knives one at a time, I want them to exhibit exceptional performance, and I can simply factor the cost into the price. But, when my tests show the two steels are basically equal and the cost of V4E is literally 40% higher than 4V I find it really hard to justify buying V4E. I can't see passing on (or absorbing) that extra cost for effectively no benefit.
All that said...other than price and availability, I have nothing whatsoever negative to say about V4E. It's a fantastic steel (one of my favorites) and so is 4V.

Chad
Thanks for the insight. Did you heat treat both according to manufacturer's recommendations or did you deviate? If they are that similar then I'd believe that if heat treating directly in line with each other they would yield the same end results. I have never heard that any mass manufacturers deviate from manufacturer's recommended protocols. Playing with the heat treatment outside of standards will yield varied results and it would absolutely stand to reason that a steel like 4V could be made to function on par with 4VE. The question is if mass producers take the time to make that happen. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that.

Speaking of which, a known heat treating and knife making professional and knife abuser, Dan Keffeler, used V4E exclusively for several years. Peter's Heat Treating consulted with him quite a bit based on his knowledge. Did he switch to 4V based on 4V having exactly similar performance and ability to obtain it easier and cheaper? If 4V is so similar and easy to obtain and cheaply bought compared to V4E I'd think he'd make that switch. Maybe he has. But i agree with you that 4V and V4E are some of the steels i find most able to withstand a variety of uses.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Bodog » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:06 pm

Barmoley wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:02 am
This is very interesting. I only have experience with 4v. Do the knives you are comparing have same geometry, similar heat treat and were sharpened the same? On paper the steels are very similar, but the production process is somewhat different.

Best regards.
Behind the edge thickness was similar, as was the edge bevel angle. 4V was hollow ground, V4E was saber. 4V was heat treated iaw manufacturer's recommended protocols, no cryo, nothing abnormal. Exactly what the manufacturer recommended to obtain 62 RC. I don't know how the V4E was heat treated. It was done by a mass producer and they said nothing about doing anything special or outside of manufacturer's recommended protocols. I believe they said the knives were finished at 61-62 RC.

In that test V4E was much better than the 4V. I build in anecdotal statements from reliable sources into my assessment of 4V. If i said my opinions based on my own findings i wouldn't recommend 4V much at all to anyone compared to other steels already easily available on the market. Also based on my own opinion based on my own tests I'd wholeheartedly recommend V4E to anyone wanting the best overall steel where corrosion resistance isn't an issue. Based on the large gap between V4E and 4V I have to assume someone deviated somewhere leading to either higher than normal performance for V4E or lower than normal performance for 4V. i try to be fair and account for that in my statements even though my own personal findings show that there is a pretty large gap between the two.
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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Barmoley » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:18 pm

Thank you very much for the reply. V4e gets great reviews, but is almost imposible to get a knife in. 4v is not that common either, but I read that cutting competition guys are now using it instead of m4, which was favorite for years. So I am wondering if your experience has more to do with incorrect heat treat of 4v rather than inherent problem with the steel.

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Re: Vanadis 4 Extra

Postby Xplorer » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:53 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:12 am
Thanks for the insight. Did you heat treat both according to manufacturer's recommendations or did you deviate? If they are that similar then I'd believe that if heat treating directly in line with each other they would yield the same end results. I have never heard that any mass manufacturers deviate from manufacturer's recommended protocols....
Hi Bodog,
I have been testing a variety of heat treat protocols providing a range of results. Nearly all of them are within the range that would be considered manufacturer's recommendations. There isn't one set manufacturer recipe called for with these and many knife steels. It's more of a manufacturer recommended range and it's up to the maker or heat treat company to decide the specifics based on their desired result. For example, here's a little bit of what the manufacturer's heat treat recommendations say for V4E and 4V:

V4E -
Heat treat between 1725F and 2160F. (this range of temps provides a range of hardness between 60 and 66)
For best wear resistance HT between 2010F and 2160F.
Triple temper at 1000F for best ductility.
Suggested range of tempering options for various hardness and toughness results from 750F - 1100F. (this range of tempering combined with the range of austenitizing temps results in a potential range of hardness between HRC 46 and HRC 63/64)
4V -
Heat treat at 2100F for best wear resistance
Heat treat between 1875F and 1950F for best balance of toughness and wear resistance.
Heat treat at 1800F for max toughness.
Triple tempering is recommended within a range between 1000F and 1100F.

Both steels suggest some form of cryo treatment and different cryo soak times will achieve different results. There's quite a bit more details involved in the manufacturer recommendations than this as well.

So, when deciding on the heat treat protocol (even for a mass manufacturer) a decision has to be made as to what the desired "target" is. Maybe that's just a hardness number or maybe it's more specific than that. Then, whoever is doing the heat treating uses the range of steel manufacturer guidelines to figure out a protocol that will achieve (hopefully) the desired result (assuming it's the first time they're heat treating that steel to that target HRC). The range of possible heat treat results that fall within the manufacturers recommendations is huge.

With some of the older steels and particularly the simple steels, it can sometimes be a bit more simple because the steel might not provide as wide a range of usable results and it may have been heat treated for so many years that it's easy to choose to go with a time tested recipe. This isn't the case with 4V or V4E or frankly most of the steels us steel geeks, geek about.
Bodog wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:12 am
..Speaking of which, a known heat treating and knife making professional and knife abuser, Dan Keffeler, used V4E exclusively for several years. Peter's Heat Treating consulted with him quite a bit based on his knowledge. Did he switch to 4V based on 4V having exactly similar performance and ability to obtain it easier and cheaper? If 4V is so similar and easy to obtain and cheaply bought compared to V4E I'd think he'd make that switch. Maybe he has. But i agree with you that 4V and V4E are some of the steels i find most able to withstand a variety of uses.
I don't know what Dan Keffeler's views are on either V4E or 4V. I do know he makes some nice knives and he's a great Blade Sports competitor. His competition chopper that he sells seems to be offered in O-1 steel whenever I see one for sale but that could just be coincidence. However, I wouldn't be surprised if his personal comp. chopper is V4E. If I was going to compete in Blade Sports my comp chopper would probably be V4E as well. As I said earlier, there are differences and they are minor. For competition that is intended to push the extremes of edge stability and all that goes into that I do think I could squeeze a little bit more performance out of V4E than 4V. Under those circumstances an extra 40% cost wouldn't matter to me one bit.

I should also note that the heat treat would be tailored specifically for competition, in which case I would be more focused on hardness and wear resistance than normal. For the same knife design to be used as a camp knife, a wilderness chopper, or any other real-life outdoor or utility purpose the heat treat should be slightly different. Same for a mass-produced pocket knife. In order to be capable and reliable for a wide range of use it would give up a little wear resistance (via hardness) in order to offer a little more ductility. When heat treated within the ranges that offer this balanced performance I can no longer say one steel is better than the other to a degree that I can identify through use. In fact, even with each steel heat treated for competition I'm not sure the competition format would even be enough to make the differences apparent to the user. Although I do see V4E having a very slight edge over 4V, I see it as more of an "on paper" advantage that is so slight that I simply suggest it shouldn't matter to any potential knife buyer whether a knife is V4E or 4V even if they were the same price. They're both going to provide the user the same impressive performance experience if heat treated properly.

Best regards,
Chad
Last edited by Xplorer on Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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