? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

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Canazes9
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? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Canazes9 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:02 pm

Why hasn't Spyderco made any flippers with the standard bushing pivot? Judging by the way it works on knives like the PM2 (very flickable, usually wears in to free drop, no side play, robust design) it would seem like a solid way to make a flipper. Is there a reason this won't work well or is it just because of the current market trend is for bearing flippers?

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Evil D
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Evil D » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:20 pm

Many of us have asked the same. So far I've had mostly good experiences with the bearings but judging by the current Military pivot design I do believe that knife would flip like a pro without bearings. I'm sure part of it is a selling point. I have mixed feelings because my Sliveraxes do flip perfectly and the pivots are rock solid but I do like things to be simpler when possible so I would definitely trade them for the same pivot style that the Military has.
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Sharp Guy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:21 pm

Canazes9 wrote:...Is there a reason this won't work well or is it just because of the current market trend is for bearing flippers?
I don't know for sure but I have a feeling it's a case of keeping up with the Jones's. I'm pretty sure a flipper that uses a bushing pivot and PB washers would work just fine but at least some of potential buyers might view that as inferior to other models or brands that use ball bearings.
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby curlyhairedboy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:10 am

Honestly my Slysz Bowie has action AT LEAST as smooth as any bearing-based flipper I've used. A little shake and it falls shut.

I think the biggest issue is the detent tuning required for dual opening methods. I'm sure it's possible to get a stiff enough detent to overcome any pivot friction pretty easily, but it might come at the expense of effortless thumbhole opening.
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby ZrowsN1s » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:56 am

I've been wanting this for a while. +1
Also I don't see the need for two opening methods. If it's a flipper, I want to open it with the flipper. Eliminate the thumb hole (obviously keep the small trademark hole), and make it a straight flipper. It would allow for a slimmer pocket friendly design.

*edit, I should say, I dont "personally" need two ways to open the knife. I can see the need (or want ) for some people.
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Evil D
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Evil D » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:43 am

ZrowsN1s wrote:I've been wanting this for a while. +1
Also I don't see the need for two opening methods. If it's a flipper, I want to open it with the flipper. Eliminate the thumb hole (obviously keep the small trademark hole), and make it a straight flipper. It would allow for a slimmer pocket friendly design.

*edit, I should say, I dont "personally" need two ways to open the knife. I can see the need (or want ) for some people.

I see the double opening methods both ways. I like the Mantra 2 and Southard because of their slim profiles but I reeeeeally like opening my Sliverax with the hole and if it didn't have that nice oversized hole I wouldn't have been able to mod it.

On the flip side (pun intended) if they make a knife with a hole that only serves as a trademark and the designed opening method is the flipper, then there's no need to have a detent that caters to both opening methods. For example the Southard is a nightmare to open via the hole but flips like a champ.
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Drewthebrave » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 am

Evil D wrote:
ZrowsN1s wrote:I've been wanting this for a while. +1
Also I don't see the need for two opening methods. If it's a flipper, I want to open it with the flipper. Eliminate the thumb hole (obviously keep the small trademark hole), and make it a straight flipper. It would allow for a slimmer pocket friendly design.

*edit, I should say, I dont "personally" need two ways to open the knife. I can see the need (or want ) for some people.

I see the double opening methods both ways. I like the Mantra 2 and Southard because of their slim profiles but I reeeeeally like opening my Sliverax with the hole and if it didn't have that nice oversized hole I wouldn't have been able to mod it.

On the flip side (pun intended) if they make a knife with a hole that only serves as a trademark and the designed opening method is the flipper, then there's no need to have a detent that caters to both opening methods. For example the Southard is a nightmare to open via the hole but flips like a champ.
Same experience with the Positron. The flipping action is slick, but the hole is useless unless you use the flipper to "pop" it over the release bearing.

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby soundshaman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:53 am

Totally agree with this idea of a no bearing flipper.

Compression lock, bushing, flipper :)

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Bill1170 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:53 am

Bushings on PM2 and Manix 2 are smooth enough for me, and I prefer the rugged simplicity they embody.

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby p_atrick » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:27 am

It looks like Spyderco is getting more serious about their flipper options. So if they were to go with a PM2 style pivot on a flipper, I would be that they would want to get their ball bearing flippers in a good place before adding a second pivot style. Eric said all the right things on the Shot Show videos about the CQI changes. Time will tell if more work is needed. I remember somebody here posted some close ups of the Sliverax with the steel bearing interface has some milling marks. Is this an issue? Who knows. Is the option in the revised Advocate (I assume the washers won't have the same milling marks) better? Again, who knows. Once all these questions are answered, only then would I expect Spyderco to add the PM2 style pivot on a flipper. But, what do I know...

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Canazes9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:29 pm

Back to the first page bump, still hoping for a response from Spyderco.

David

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby timlara » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:04 pm

I agree with Sharp Guy that the main motivation for the bearings is marketing. In fact, you could argue the same for Spyderco doing flippers at all. But if they are selling well, then I certainly can't blame them.

I personally will always prefer the Spydiehole as a deployment method and since most non-backlock Spydies can "flick deploy" just as fast as any bearing-loaded flipper, I find having the flipper tab in addition to a Spydiehole to be less elegant and mostly just in the way during use and carry. I fully admit I'm also getting old and cranky. ;)
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sal
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby sal » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:02 pm

Hi David,

We've played around with a variety of flipper methods. As Tim mentioned, our customers are asking for ball bearings, so we'll use ball bearings. The day may come when we change, or go on to something newer.

sal

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Canazes9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:07 pm

sal wrote:Hi David,

We've played around with a variety of flipper methods. As Tim mentioned, our customers are asking for ball bearings, so we'll use ball bearings. The day may come when we change, or go on to something newer.

sal

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The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
Thanks for the response Sal!

David

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 am

What about Thrust Tapered Roller Bearings?

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sal
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby sal » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 am

At it's current rate of development, it looks like Autos might be legal in the next few year. I wonder what that will do to flippers? Autos are now legal in Colorado, though still against Federal law.

We're working on a couple.

sal

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby Canazes9 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:58 am

sal wrote:At it's current rate of development, it looks like Autos might be legal in the next few year. I wonder what that will do to flippers? Autos are now legal in Colorado, though still against Federal law.

We're working on a couple.

sal
For me it becomes a question of how reliable an auto can be. I have very little frame of reference, have a few assisted flippers of various brands that are cheaply manufactured and the springs tend to break. If an auto could be built that would be reliable for literally hundreds of thousands of openings I would like to have one if they become legal in my area.

Maybe some autos are that reliable now?

I wouldn't mind paying extra for a reliable auto built really well with high quality steel.

David

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sal
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby sal » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:26 am

We do cycle tests on our autos. At least a hundred thousand openings.

sal

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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:45 am

Based on what I've seen over the last 30 years here in California, not only will autos remain illegal here, they may ban flippers.
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Re: ? for Spyderco regarding flipper design

Postby ThePeacent » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:48 am

sal wrote:We do cycle tests on our autos. At least a hundred thousand openings.

sal
two new autos...that's Spyderco again in the cutting edge.
Can't wait to hear more, the Autonomy was always a wondrful but odd specimen in the catalog.

it is true that more and more states are allowing automatics these days (thanks Kniferights! :D ) and they have lots of appeal and a big market, but quality autos are expensive now.

there is a company specialised in autos that published its tests with their "Chain driven" model and it went through 418'000 cycles before failure :eek:

that was back in 2014 and they've been pulling out new models and improving with great success

I wish the best of luck for Spyderco in that niche :spyder:


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