HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

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HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Stuman » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:54 pm

I’m relatively new on here so forgive me if this has already been brought up but I just want all of your thoughts on where should Spyderco go next in terms of Super Steels because we’ve had HAP 40 and we’ve had CTS Maxamet both are very high alloyed high speed steels but since the HAP range of steels is from Japan the next one up is there top tier HSS, which is HAP 72 and I think with Maxamet the logical choice next would be CPM REX 121 Which is a ridiculously mad HSS and will give Maxamet a run for its money also I’d like to put YXR7 Matrix HSS out there to because to my knowledge Spyderco has not made a knife in that steel either. Anyway I digress so please let me know what you think. Cheers ! Hopefully Spyderco will take note of what is said.
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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Evil D » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:03 pm

121 was apparently tested and there was a Mule planned but I believe Maxamet was chosen over it.
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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby TomAiello » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 pm

I'd love to see a REX 121 mule, regardless.

For that matter, I'd love to see a VTOKU2 mule.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby jpm2 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:08 pm

I think Spyderco made the right choices with hap40 and maxamet.
hap40 is very well balanced high end HSS. Maxamet is at the high extreme of wear resistance and hardness.
All that's needed is experiment with ht.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Stuman » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 pm

jpm2 wrote:I think Spyderco made the right choices with hap40 and maxamet.
hap40 is very well balanced high end HSS. Maxamet is at the high extreme of wear resistance and hardness.
All that's needed is experiment with ht.
It’s not really a case if Spyderco made the right choice, it’s about where to next and the logical choice for the Japanese super steel would be HAP 72 or May be YXR7 which is what I’d love to see but interms of western super steels the next step and logical choice would be Rex 121 and as steels get more advanced my hope is that Spyderco will be leading this as they have done because companies such as Kershaw failed miserably in there attempts to rain in Maxamet where as Spyderco has mastered its method to deal with such ultra high carbide steels and have gone into full production where as Kershaw made a limited run as they could not deal with Maxamet in high production numbers do to warping after grinding and it eating there grinding equipment even though it was hardened to a low 60 to 61 HRC but I’m not dissing Kershaw. There where honest enough to say they don’t know how to treat for all intensive purposes this super steel.
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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby TomAiello » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:50 pm

I'm very happy with Maxamet. I'm just interested in seeing Mules in the others so I could try them out. It's kind of like an addiction. Ok, it's actually, more or less exactly like and addiction. ;)

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby jpm2 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Honestly, I'm excited to see any new hss used as knife steel. I understand doing it just because they can, but from a practical standpoint wondering what hap72 and rex121 would bring that maxamet hasn't already got covered? Same for hap40 vs yxr7.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby sal » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:09 pm

Hi Jpm,

I think there is sort of a Renaissance in blade steels and blade edges. It isn't a better than observation. It's more kind of like; "Yes, I've tasted blueberries and I know that black raspberries are similar, but I want to taste the difference for myself". We think it's a good thing because we get to see "Real World Testing" of these steels in addition to our lab testing as long as an examples of the steel become available to the Steel junkie's.

sal

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:15 pm

Sal,

Is there any chance we'll see more carbon steel fixed blades?

I really appreciate all of the experimentation you do with blade steels, especially H1, LC200N etc. While I like a tough carbon steel or tool steel, I like them better in fixed blades than folders. I don't use folders in ways that the extra strength is beneficial to me, but fixed blades are another story.

M4 street beat? :D

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby the Southerner » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:17 pm

Stuman wrote:I’m relatively new on here so forgive me if this has already been brought up but I just want all of your thoughts on where should Spyderco go next in terms of Super Steels because we’ve had HAP 40 and we’ve had CTS Maxamet both are very high alloyed high speed steels but since the HAP range of steels is from Japan the next one up is there top tier HSS, which is HAP 72 and I think with Maxamet the logical choice next would be CPM REX 121 Which is a ridiculously mad HSS and will give Maxamet a run for its money also I’d like to put YXR7 Matrix HSS out there to because to my knowledge Spyderco has not made a knife in that steel either. Anyway I digress so please let me know what you think. Cheers ! Hopefully Spyderco will take note of what is said.
Let's do neither so we can get prices back down to reasonable levels.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby the Southerner » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:30 pm

Stuman wrote:I’m relatively new on here so forgive me if this has already been brought up but I just want all of your thoughts on where should Spyderco go next in terms of Super Steels because we’ve had HAP 40 and we’ve had CTS Maxamet both are very high alloyed high speed steels but since the HAP range of steels is from Japan the next one up is there top tier HSS, which is HAP 72 and I think with Maxamet the logical choice next would be CPM REX 121 Which is a ridiculously mad HSS and will give Maxamet a run for its money also I’d like to put YXR7 Matrix HSS out there to because to my knowledge Spyderco has not made a knife in that steel either. Anyway I digress so please let me know what you think. Cheers ! Hopefully Spyderco will take note of what is said.
The "super steel" issue has gotten out of hand. It's good business for Spyderco because in a rather compartmental industry with so few aspects to the product, stringing along a never ending series of "best" steels is good money making. It is good for the industry as well because it has forced others to adopt objectively good steels, Cold Steel being a prime example. AUS-8 is fine when it's not gummy, but it is nice to have the luxury of more carbide, and XHP/S30V/D2 is probably the best upper-end compromise. That was the whole point of S30V. However, as we've seen recently, it's not good for us necessarily because there's a heavy price to pay for your wallet. I myself am boycotting Spyderco until this, to be frank, hype machine cools off, and encourage others to do the same. The machine is overheating. Unless your day job consists of repeatedly cutting cardboard nonstop or something similarly difficult, the difference between cts-xhp, an already very hard steel, and something truly insane like REX 121 or Maxamet is meaningless. It's like driving to work every day in a Ferrari F1 car.

Also, people weren't using there knives much to begin with because Spyderco was already the upper end. Now you'll use them even less because they cost that much more to replace, I know I did.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby TomAiello » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:50 pm

the Southerner wrote:Let's do neither so we can get prices back down to reasonable levels.
Honestly, prices are at reasonable levels. If you just ignore all the high end, there are enough good Spyderco models that I could use them happily for the rest of my life and be totally satisfied (for normal use). VG-10 is a great steel, and for any normal person a Manix 2 LW in CTS-BD1 is going to be plenty of folding pocket knife. The options in a normal budget range include things like the VG-10 Dfly, Delica and Endura, the Value line folders, all the Byrds...the list goes on.

If you don't want to pay the high end prices for the premium offerings--then just don't pay them. If you're a normal person instead of a knife nut, there's no reason to go buying Maxamet and s110v, or integral titanium locks.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby jpm2 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 pm

sal wrote:Hi Jpm,

I think there is sort of a Renaissance in blade steels and blade edges. It isn't a better than observation. It's more kind of like; "Yes, I've tasted blueberries and I know that black raspberries are similar, but I want to taste the difference for myself". We think it's a good thing because we get to see "Real World Testing" of these steels in addition to our lab testing as long as an examples of the steel become available to the Steel junkie's.

sal
Howdy Sal,
I'll taste all the HSS you're willing to supply. You're right, there may be one I haven't tried that I like just as well, or better.
Thanks

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Stuman » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 am

The thing we all need to look at is that we need to progress and never regress, never 2 steps forward 3 steps back and as the way steels are made with ever more advanced processes with more complex compounds added with ever increasing complexity I want my favourite knife company (Spyderco) to lead the way in knife steel metallurgy and yes there is more than one way to skin a cat but it better be a Spyderco doing the skinning ! Lmao but really we should look ahead and try not to reminisce too much about steels of yesteryear that are now used in other items. We can still use old steels such as the SK range but for a company such a Spyderco using old steels on there top tier platforms is a big mistake as they are the knives that truly point out that Spyderco has listened to us customers. We should always look to the future and Spyderco too, and put the best materials and components in together with the top high end steels to make knives but on the flip side Spyderco has more than one High end HSS and does use none HSS in a lot if there platforms and has a wide range of choice of steels available and if you don’t like the idea of progress and advancing the steels and components used to make Spyderco’s then there are plenty of other brands out there. With regards to HSS been useless and pointless on a knife it’s no different to using carbon fibre scales/handles or even Titanium on a knife because your really not going to be able to use its performance to its max but it does however add to its prestige and looks awesome and it’s no different with steels but top high end materials do demand a premium price for which I and plenty of other customers are more than happy to pay for.
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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Canazes9 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:19 am

the Southerner wrote:
Stuman wrote:I’m relatively new on here so forgive me if this has already been brought up but I just want all of your thoughts on where should Spyderco go next in terms of Super Steels because we’ve had HAP 40 and we’ve had CTS Maxamet both are very high alloyed high speed steels but since the HAP range of steels is from Japan the next one up is there top tier HSS, which is HAP 72 and I think with Maxamet the logical choice next would be CPM REX 121 Which is a ridiculously mad HSS and will give Maxamet a run for its money also I’d like to put YXR7 Matrix HSS out there to because to my knowledge Spyderco has not made a knife in that steel either. Anyway I digress so please let me know what you think. Cheers ! Hopefully Spyderco will take note of what is said.
The "super steel" issue has gotten out of hand. It's good business for Spyderco because in a rather compartmental industry with so few aspects to the product, stringing along a never ending series of "best" steels is good money making. It is good for the industry as well because it has forced others to adopt objectively good steels, Cold Steel being a prime example. AUS-8 is fine when it's not gummy, but it is nice to have the luxury of more carbide, and XHP/S30V/D2 is probably the best upper-end compromise. That was the whole point of S30V. However, as we've seen recently, it's not good for us necessarily because there's a heavy price to pay for your wallet. I myself am boycotting Spyderco until this, to be frank, hype machine cools off, and encourage others to do the same. The machine is overheating. Unless your day job consists of repeatedly cutting cardboard nonstop or something similarly difficult, the difference between cts-xhp, an already very hard steel, and something truly insane like REX 121 or Maxamet is meaningless. It's like driving to work every day in a Ferrari F1 car.

Also, people weren't using there knives much to begin with because Spyderco was already the upper end. Now you'll use them even less because they cost that much more to replace, I know I did.
I use my knives and don't feel the need to justify the manner and extent with anyone else - I paid for them. Your Ferrari F1 analogy is spot on, but perhaps not for the reasons you feel. Not everyone will want to purchase or use an exotic F1, many may feel there is "no need". The fact is high end exotics push the realm of what is possible and that technology benefits everyone whether they believe it or not.

Continuing with the car analogy, my mundane company car is a Ford Taurus with the 2.0 Ecoboost engine. It uses technology that was for only high end exotics many years ago. The performance it achieves rivals all but the very best high end exotics of a few decades ago and absolutely blows away the highest end race technology of the decades previous to that. All while achieving gas mileage, reliability and crash worthiness that were literally inconceivable a few decades ago - at an inflation adjusted price that is far cheaper than the exotic high end technology of decades past.

Whether you purchase or use the exotic steels from Spyderco or other companies you still receive the benefits as can be witnessed by the proliferation of choices available today from Spyderco and others, with the base steels available today far exceeding the performance technology of base steels available in inflation adjusted more expensive knives from decades ago. The biggest difference is that unlike a Ferrari F1, I can afford to use and play with the exotic high end steels available.

An odd thing I've noticed in my time, is that most people eventually get to a point as they age where they reach technology & information overload. Eventually, they just want the world to stop spinning so they can catch up an adjust. I'm already feeling some of those effects myself - I work in an extremely data intensive environment. In my early days I was seen as one of the "go to guys" for the newest technology role outs, now I find myself cursing every time a new version of software is rolled out. At the end of the day the world won't stop spinning for me, nor you.

David

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby SF Native » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:09 pm

the Southerner wrote: Let's do neither so we can get prices back down to reasonable levels.
Trying to start a spyderco buyers union?
Sorry, no. You don’t get to dictate my buying habits. You don’t get to restrict my freedom to spend as I please. If you can’t keep up, that’s the American way and not my problem.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby TomAiello » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:26 pm

Isn't HAP 72 the one that's meant to cut at extreme temperatures? Holds it's edge up to 1100F or something?

Or am I misremembering that?

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby jpm2 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:36 pm

The big difference I see in hap72 and maxamet is 8% molybdenum. Not sure what difference it makes, but I'm willing to taste it.

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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby Stuman » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
the Southerner wrote:
Stuman wrote:I’m relatively new on here so forgive me if this has already been brought up but I just want all of your thoughts on where should Spyderco go next in terms of Super Steels because we’ve had HAP 40 and we’ve had CTS Maxamet both are very high alloyed high speed steels but since the HAP range of steels is from Japan the next one up is there top tier HSS, which is HAP 72 and I think with Maxamet the logical choice next would be CPM REX 121 Which is a ridiculously mad HSS and will give Maxamet a run for its money also I’d like to put YXR7 Matrix HSS out there to because to my knowledge Spyderco has not made a knife in that steel either. Anyway I digress so please let me know what you think. Cheers ! Hopefully Spyderco will take note of what is said.
The "super steel" issue has gotten out of hand. It's good business for Spyderco because in a rather compartmental industry with so few aspects to the product, stringing along a never ending series of "best" steels is good money making. It is good for the industry as well because it has forced others to adopt objectively good steels, Cold Steel being a prime example. AUS-8 is fine when it's not gummy, but it is nice to have the luxury of more carbide, and XHP/S30V/D2 is probably the best upper-end compromise. That was the whole point of S30V. However, as we've seen recently, it's not good for us necessarily because there's a heavy price to pay for your wallet. I myself am boycotting Spyderco until this, to be frank, hype machine cools off, and encourage others to do the same. The machine is overheating. Unless your day job consists of repeatedly cutting cardboard nonstop or something similarly difficult, the difference between cts-xhp, an already very hard steel, and something truly insane like REX 121 or Maxamet is meaningless. It's like driving to work every day in a Ferrari F1 car.

Also, people weren't using there knives much to begin with because Spyderco was already the upper end. Now you'll use them even less because they cost that much more to replace, I know I did.
I use my knives and don't feel the need to justify the manner and extent with anyone else - I paid for them. Your Ferrari F1 analogy is spot on, but perhaps not for the reasons you feel. Not everyone will want to purchase or use an exotic F1, many may feel there is "no need". The fact is high end exotics push the realm of what is possible and that technology benefits everyone whether they believe it or not.


David
Yes that’s what I’m talking about, we should always push the realms of possibility to progress and push the envelope of what is possible and that’s why I’m asking where to next because if we go back to the materials of old (Not that it’s a bad thing in some scenarios) then that is regressing and your turning the clock backwards in the wrong direction. We should push the limits of of our technology and using HSS in a knife is just that and should it be HAP 72 or YXR7 and Rex 121 that’s progress no matter how you look at it wether it’s required or not and at the end of the day I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it but from where I can see Spyderco does just this - pushing the limits and having the cahoonas to do it first and do it well. Us humans learn from our mistakes and pritty quick to but I’m sure you all agree that launching and going into full production of Maxamet, HAP 40 was not a mistake, it was a huge success which brings me on to my question ‘Where to next ?”
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Re: HAP 72 or CPM REX 121 Spydie

Postby EngDevGr3 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Hoping to keep this alive...I imagine that if Spyderco is mastering Maxamet, then Rex 121 wouldn't be that much of a jump in the manufacturing process.
On another note, I think there would be a market for even the mule blade in Maxamet and Rex 121. Say a run once a year for each or either of those. I think that train would roll for a long time.
In the case for the extreme level steels, it is difficult to find people doing runs of these. Until Spyderco took on Maxamet, it was in the realm of Rex 121 at the moment. Small runs from custom makers here and there.
Spyderco is already the Super Steel king. I say wear the crown proudly and keep pushing the envelope.


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