Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

[sal]

Hi Southerner,

It's a control of the advertised price, not the selling price. Innovative practices are also a way of competing. It's really a challenging position for Spyderco to try to please all links in the business chain. You might consider all points of view for a bigger picture look?

sal

[BrianMcCord]

Amazon isn't the only place to buy knives, there are a lot of good reputable dealers around.

I have never bought a knife off Amazon.

No, but everyone knows it was the cheapest. As with Ebay, there was the risk of a counterfeit, but you could get 60% off on a model some days. I remember Chokwe's going for $95.

Still going, I see. Try voting with your dollar.

[BrianMcCord]

Hi Southerner,

It's a control of the advertised price, not the selling price. Innovative practices are also a way of competing. It's really a challenging position for Spyderco to try to please all links in the business chain. You might consider all points of view for a bigger picture look?

sal

Your patience is commendable. For a founder of a company as large as Spyderco, to be spending so much of his time trying to please ONE intolerable person is unreal in a world of 7 billion people.

[Wanimator]

The price increases don't over shadow the value either. Not by a long shot. Some more exotic or artistic models are really up there but not what I'd consider overpriced, there are real overpriced products on the market, not naming names but they have followings. Can't please everyone, especially somebody who's already got an allegiance elsewhere.

[Paracelsus]

Back on topic.

If you think the Polestar should be priced the same as the Tenacious, buy the Byrd Raven 2.
It's a Polestar with a 50/50 choil at the same price as the Tenacious.

I believe that Sal has stated that the Polestar is a derivation of the Raven design.

I have the Raven 2, and I can say it is one of my favorite tools.
When purchasing, I weighed it against the Polestar, and decided I preferred the front choil to the extra blade length,
although I do like the thinner blade stock, denim g10 and bronze washers on the PS. No bad choice here.

I don't think the Polestar is overpriced. I'd rather have one than a Delica, because:
I prefer CTS-BD1 to VG10, G10 to FRN, and liner- to back-lock. So.

I would love to see CTS-XHP and D2 become more common low-to mid-range steel offerings.

Much respect to Sal for his patience and equanimity.

[JaseRicco]

Amazon isn't the only place to buy knives, there are a lot of good reputable dealers around.

I have never bought a knife off Amazon.

No, but everyone knows it was the cheapest. As with Ebay, there was the risk of a counterfeit, but you could get 60% off on a model some days. I remember Chokwe's going for $95.

Amazon is actually not the cheapest. Take the Persistence, Efficient and Assist, because these are the knives I know the most about at this point, their prices are the same across all authorized retailers...give or take just a few dollars. Amazon just happens to have the best shipping and return policies, which makes purchasing and satisfaction extremely easy.

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

[MichaelScott]

This is an interesting discussion because it has, so far, centered around the idea of value compared to price (or cost). I submit the “value” of the Polestar and Alcyone are dependent on a potential buyer’s attitudes and reasons for buying a knife in the first place. Most discussion on these knives relate to the idea that there is, or should be, a category defined as a “Value Lineup”. This lineup is really defined by price to the buyer as the sole value attribute. Given this as a starting point, the Polestar and Alcyone don’t fit in. If one is constrained solely by purchase price, the argument is moot: no, they don’t “fit in”.

However, if the perspective of value is broadened to include other attributes such as materials, ergonomics, task-usefulness (can the blade cut well for the intended uses and can it be readily maintained and will it resist damage under normal use, things like that), longevity and quality of construction and after-sales support, then these two knives must be perceived as definitely in the upper range of any “value lineup”, justifying their approximately 30% price increase over, say, the Tenacious family. What is 30%? In this case, about $20, which won’t get you and another person into a movie theatre these days but might pay for a quality burger dinner for two.

I think the Polestar and Alcyone are knives for the educated knife buyer and user, especially those who may be on a limited income and have few funds to spare for more exotic and sophisticated knives. The main problem will be how to succcessfully market them for that audience.

[Ankerson]

This is an interesting discussion because it has, so far, centered around the idea of value compared to price (or cost). I submit the “value” of the Polestar and Alcyone are dependent on a potential buyer’s attitudes and reasons for buying a knife in the first place. Most discussion on these knives relate to the idea that there is, or should be, a category defined as a “Value Lineup”. This lineup is really defined by price to the buyer as the sole value attribute. Given this as a starting point, the Polestar and Alcyone don’t fit in. If one is constrained solely by purchase price, the argument is moot: no, they don’t “fit in”.

However, if the perspective of value is broadened to include other attributes such as materials, ergonomics, task-usefulness (can the blade cut well for the intended uses and can it be readily maintained and will it resist damage under normal use, things like that), longevity and quality of construction and after-sales support, then these two knives must be perceived as definitely in the upper range of any “value lineup”, justifying their approximately 30% price increase over, say, the Tenacious family. What is 30%? In this case, about $20, which won’t get you and another person into a movie theatre these days but might pay for a quality burger dinner for two.

I think the Polestar and Alcyone are knives for the educated knife buyer and user, especially those who may be on a limited income and have few funds to spare for more exotic and sophisticated knives. The main problem will be how to succcessfully market them for that audience.

The problem is the price increase over the Tenacious family, $20 is more than enough for people who buy in that price range not to buy one. That $20 might as well be a Million for most of them.

One can talk about value and qaulity all day long but in the end the person's eyes will just glaze over and they will suffer brain lock as they can't get past the price. I have been there, more than a few times over the years and MOST of the time I was wasting both my time and breath.

That's not to say they aren't good knives, because they are and I can see the value in them personally as I am sure others here can.

It's a very tough market in that general price range.

[TomAiello]

Honestly, I like the Raven 2 better than either the Tenacious or the Polestar.

[araneae]

I would wager that to the average knife buyer, a US made steel like bd-1 is somewhat of an unknown and wouldn't be a big selling point. For me, its in the same class as 8Cr more or less performance wise and I don't see it as a real premium. I grabbed a Polestar at the SFO sale and don't see it as much better than the already very nice Raven 2. If i was comparing them in store, I'd almost surely take the $15 cheaper Raven. Not that the Polestar is bad in any respect, just hard to say the materials are worth $15 more to me as a knife user.

I posted that a while back about the Polestar. If you can discern much difference between 8Cr and BD1 in regular use, I think you are either A. deluding yourself or B. astoundingly focused and analytical. To me as a budget knife shopper, there is no reason to pay $15 extra for an American steel of almost identical performance. The Raven 2 wins every time.

And as mentioned previously, the Delica is only $10 more and you get VG-10 and a highly refined design. If I was a slightly educated knife buyer shopping in that $ range, I would take a Delica every time over the Alcyone, unless I hated back locks. The Delica is widely known as a great bang for the buck, and rightly so.

I think the Polestar/Alcyone at the current price miss the mark as "budget knives" when you look at the Byrd models or compare them with other companie's budget knives (Ontario Rat, Kershaw USA or import speedsafe knives, and many CRKT models that use steels more knife novices know like 8Cr13, AUS8 or 420HC. $65 for me is a stretch of "budget knife" when there are so many perfectly decent knives around today for under $30. This isn't even considering the growing number of Chinese brands that are making nice knives with Sandvik or D2 now.

Having carried the Polestar pretty much daily for the last 3 weeks at work, I can say it's a good design. Honestly though, if I hadn't snagged a Polestar at the SFO sale, I wouldn't own one. I would however be happy with My Raven 2. Perhaps adding to the Byrd line would be more sensible for budget offerings; or doing what is needed to keep Spydie value knives well under $50 where the budget buyer is comfy.

[JaseRicco]

This is an interesting discussion because it has, so far, centered around the idea of value compared to price (or cost). I submit the “value” of the Polestar and Alcyone are dependent on a potential buyer’s attitudes and reasons for buying a knife in the first place. Most discussion on these knives relate to the idea that there is, or should be, a category defined as a “Value Lineup”. This lineup is really defined by price to the buyer as the sole value attribute. Given this as a starting point, the Polestar and Alcyone don’t fit in. If one is constrained solely by purchase price, the argument is moot: no, they don’t “fit in”.

However, if the perspective of value is broadened to include other attributes such as materials, ergonomics, task-usefulness (can the blade cut well for the intended uses and can it be readily maintained and will it resist damage under normal use, things like that), longevity and quality of construction and after-sales support, then these two knives must be perceived as definitely in the upper range of any “value lineup”, justifying their approximately 30% price increase over, say, the Tenacious family. What is 30%? In this case, about $20, which won’t get you and another person into a movie theatre these days but might pay for a quality burger dinner for two.

I think the Polestar and Alcyone are knives for the educated knife buyer and user, especially those who may be on a limited income and have few funds to spare for more exotic and sophisticated knives. The main problem will be how to succcessfully market them for that audience.

I would wager that to the average knife buyer, a US made steel like bd-1 is somewhat of an unknown and wouldn't be a big selling point. For me, its in the same class as 8Cr more or less performance wise and I don't see it as a real premium. I grabbed a Polestar at the SFO sale and don't see it as much better than the already very nice Raven 2. If i was comparing them in store, I'd almost surely take the $15 cheaper Raven. Not that the Polestar is bad in any respect, just hard to say the materials are worth $15 more to me as a knife user.

...And as mentioned previously, the Delica is only $10 more and you get VG-10 and a highly refined design. If I was a slightly educated knife buyer shopping in that $ range, I would take a Delica every time over the Alcyone, unless I hated back locks. The Delica is widely known as a great bang for the buck, and rightly so.

I think the Polestar/Alcyone at the current price miss the mark as "budget knives" when you look at the Byrd models or compare them with other companie's budget knives...

Having carried the Polestar pretty much daily for the last 3 weeks at work, I can say it's a good design. Honestly though, if I hadn't snagged a Polestar at the SFO sale, I wouldn't own one.

This is exactly the point that I was trying to make in my original post. There are in fact two types of values when discussing a knife. The first is simply for the budget conscious individual that has limited funds to spend on a knife. This is where a company such as Spyderco comes in, when they create a Value/Budget line. It is assumed the moment that you click on this lineup to see what is offered, that the knives will be of lesser cost because they will also be of lesser quality than most of Spyerdocs knives...i.e. made in china with 8cR13. But the buyer will be purchasing a Spyderco nonetheless, a company who is renowned for making stupendous knives in both design and quality. So even though the knife is of lesser quality, there is no downside for this type of individual who just wants a knife at an affordable cost from a company such as Spyderco. The second type of value is where one can physically and visually see the “value” of what went into designing and producing a knife...i.e.steel, better G-10 offered in Gray, great ergonomics, and possibly even better fit and finish.

I belong to the first group. I just simply want a knife that has decent quality, not the best quality, from a company like Spyderco. I fully understand that a closer inspection of these types of knives are going to reveal some flaws, whatever they may be. And that is completely understandable, becaseue in the end, the knife only cost $40. And if something happens to it, it only costs $40 to replace.

So lets play a game that we are all familiar with from childhood...”Which One Doesn’t Belong”

Alcyone - $62
Ambitious - $39
Efficient - $42
GrassHopper - $20
Persistence $20
Polestar - $65
Resilience - $52
Tenacious - $45/$48

Every one of the above knives is at a $50 price point and below. Only two are not...the Alcyone and Polestar of course. And there are two that I didn’t include in the above list, the Cat and Chicago, both of which are out of Taiwan with BD1 steel and are still only priced at $55 & $52 respectively.

I must admit that Eric felt the market would not appreciate the cost difference and it appears as though he was correct. Sales are slow on the 2 models and I have been studying the models to determine the next direction. I thought the gray G-10 might be a detractor, I decided that it is nice subtle color with reasonable texture that is not black.
sal

I have to agree with Eric here. But this is because the question becomes, what exactly is a “budget” knife price. Some might go as far as to say that they consider any knife under $100 a budget knife. Some might say $75, and some will be at the other end of things saying they wouldn’t purchase a Budget knife over $30 $40. But as I watch knife reviews and read the comments, the consensus with the majority of individual who purchase Value/Budget knives is that they should be at the $50 price point and below. So I believe Spyderco would have sold more units yielding in a bigger profit margin had these knives been priced with he rest of the Spyderco Value Folders.

So I would rather see the Polestar and Alcyone made with 8cR13 and priced more in line with the rest of the Spyderco Value Folders, or made with BD1 or better out of Taiwan or Japan and priced however it needs to be.

[zhyla]

Has anyone gotten one of these two new models and can compare them to the Tenacious? I’m curious if they feel like they’re worth the extra $20.

I still think the pricing makes sense but the steel doesn’t. I don’t know how BD1 compares to the generic D2 that some competitors are putting in their knives in this price range but I think D2 would have been better received by enthusiasts. And a vertically slimmer model is sorely missing in this line.

[Larry_Mott]

Honestly, I like the Raven 2 better than either the Tenacious or the Polestar.

Same here. I got the Raven2 just after launch and only recently it got kicked out of my pocket in favor of the S30V Wharnie Delica.
In my experience the RAven is easy to sharpen, it does lose the razor's edge pretty quick but retains a 'good enough' edge for pretty long.

[araneae]

Has anyone gotten one of these two new models and can compare them to the Tenacious? I’m curious if they feel like they’re worth the extra $20.

I still think the pricing makes sense but the steel doesn’t. I don’t know how BD1 compares to the generic D2 that some competitors are putting in their knives in this price range but I think D2 would have been better received by enthusiasts. And a vertically slimmer model is sorely missing in this line.

It deoesnt feel $20 better to me than the Tenacious. Similar build quality IMO, and steel is the only difference in materials. as I said above, no real noticeable improvement in steel performace for me.

Curious what makes the price make sense for you when you haven't handled one to compare and you don't know how the steel compares?

[Joris Mo]

I think the Polestar and Alcyone are much better value than the Tenacious, I've tried the Tenacious but never really liked it enough to use it much.
Actually got a Polestar as a gift, probably wouldn't have tried it otherwise but really liked it once I gave it a try. Have actually gotten the Alcyone as well now.
The Polestar and Alcyone are definitely a step up from the original value line like the Tenacious but doesn't mean they can't be part of it.
(I think it's a step up in quality as well as design btw)

[sal]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

[dplafoll]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

I think that when you get into the "budget" or "value" part of the market, price truly becomes the largest concern, at the expense of most or all other concerns. I'm generalizing, but the average buyer of a Tenacious just doesn't care about a slightly-better steel but at a significant cost increase (and in this price area, ~$20 is significant). They are probably a "normal" person i.e. non-enthusiast, and they probably don't know better and don't care and just want the cheaper price, especially when they are already spending a "large" amount of money on a knife (as opposed to the ~$5-10 "knife" next to the Tenacious in the case at Wal-Mart or Dick's). Or, it's an enthusiast who wants a beater knife, and then they still don't care about the better steel because it's a beater, and they can always re-sharpen it or replace it and getting the lowest price is part of the goal. Or that enthusiast won't be buying it because they're already buying a nicer model in the first place (which is my case personally).

A related question: How well is the Efficient selling compared to the Polestar/Alcyone, and to the Tenacious family? I personally think the Efficient is the best design of all of those knives, and since it's very nearly a liner lock Native for ~$45 it's the best value of all of them as well. I'd recommend the Efficient over the Tenacious at equal prices, and then I'd probably recommend it over the Polestar/Alcyone as well because of the ~$20 savings. My personal opinion is that ~$50 is about the max price for a successful "budget" or "value" folder; anything more, and you're into "real" knife territory and you need a corresponding upgrade in materials and manufacturing.

[steelcity16]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

I don't know what the opinions of others regarding COO are, but at least for me I am guilty of generalizing COO when it comes to the value/price comparison. For high quality USA made goods, I typically am willing to pay almost any price if it is something I really want/need. If the COO is somewhere like Germany, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, or Japan, I also will typically pay a pretty high price for something I want. But for stuff coming out of Taiwan, I typically expect a substantial discount compared to products coming out of the other countries I mentioned. I have A LOT of Taiwan-made tools and knives, and most are very high quality and I have zero complaints about them, but I also pay very little for them compared to goods from those other countries. Same deal with China, but to a much greater degree. While a lot of stuff coming out of China is unfortunately not the best quality, I do have some tools and knives that I would consider good quality, and even a good value considering what I paid.

So in short, for Spyderco knives, at least for me, they would have to be Ganzo-level prices to get me to open my wallet for any China/Taiwan made knives. I'm not sure what the price increase would be for the GB2 if it were made in Golden, but I personally would be much more likely to shell out $250 for a Golden-made GB2 than $155 for a Taiwan-made GB2. Even if they are of the exact same quality. Call me crazy I guess! :)

It seems like there are a lot of people on this forum who don't think this way, but in the tool forums I frequent, COO is a HUGE deal and a lot of people refuse to even set foot in Harbor Freight, Wal Mart, and the like. I may be a COO snob to a degree, but I am a Harbor Freight almost weekly snapping up cheap Taiwan made tools that can hold their own with Craftsman, Snap On, Mac, Matco, Wera, Wiha, etc.

[Ankerson]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

In that price range and for the typical customer who buys knives in that range price really is everything.

Even $5 or less can infuence them to buy something else.

With 2 knives in the case sitting next to each other most of them will pick the cheaper one.

Now that's not to say that everyone would because there are people around that do have a large varity of knives from various ranges.

It's just a tough customer base that shops in that price range, although some do evolve and learn and start to see the value in the higher end models. For those people get to experience the more refined designs, steels and fit and finish and can appreciate what goes into them.

[Ankerson]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

I don't know what the opinions of others regarding COO are, but at least for me I am guilty of generalizing COO when it comes to the value/price comparison. For high quality USA made goods, I typically am willing to pay almost any price if it is something I really want/need. If the COO is somewhere like Germany, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, or Japan, I also will typically pay a pretty high price for something I want. But for stuff coming out of Taiwan, I typically expect a substantial discount compared to products coming out of the other countries I mentioned. I have A LOT of Taiwan-made tools and knives, and most are very high quality and I have zero complaints about them, but I also pay very little for them compared to goods from those other countries. Same deal with China, but to a much greater degree. While a lot of stuff coming out of China is unfortunately not the best quality, I do have some tools and knives that I would consider good quality, and even a good value considering what I paid.

So in short, for Spyderco knives, at least for me, they would have to be Ganzo-level prices to get me to open my wallet for any China/Taiwan made knives. I'm not sure what the price increase would be for the GB2 if it were made in Golden, but I personally would be much more likely to shell out $250 for a Golden-made GB2 than $155 for a Taiwan-made GB2. Even if they are of the exact same quality. Call me crazy I guess! :)

It seems like there are a lot of people on this forum who don't think this way, but in the tool forums I frequent, COO is a HUGE deal and a lot of people refuse to even set foot in Harbor Freight, Wal Mart, and the like. I may be a COO snob to a degree, but I am a Harbor Freight almost weekly snapping up cheap Taiwan made tools that can hold their own with Craftsman, Snap On, Mac, Matco, Wera, Wiha, etc.

Taiwan is not China, the standard of living in Taiwan is MUCH higher than in China typically.

That said it really doesn't matter what country the knife is made in because it's the maker who sets the standards not the factory that produces them. There is more to it than that, but that's true in general terms.

How many times have we all heard that Eric has gone over to Taiwan or China to check on things?

There have been some extremely high quality knives coming out of Taiwan and not just Spyderco's either. The factory that Spyderco uses is outstanding to say the least.