Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

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Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby JaseRicco » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:10 pm

Both the Polestar and Alcyone are good looking knives, which is certainly to be expected from Spyderco. In a very short time I have come to love Spyderco designs and quality. And as far as I can tell, the quality is right on par with the Tenacious and Percistence, as that’s exactly what they are...a Tenacious with Gray G-10 scales and CTS BD1 steel, and a Percistence with Gray G-10 and CTS BD1 Steel. I gotta say though, in my opinion Spyderco definately dropped the ball on the price point of both knives. From what I am seeing the Alcyone can be found for roughly $60 and the Polestar for roughly $64. Considering the fact that you can pick up one of Spyderco’s most beloved knives, the Delica 4, for $69...what’s the deal with the price?? There are plenty of other Spyderco knives as well from Spyderco’s “Non Value” line in the $65-$70 price range as well...you have the Endura 4, dragonfly 2 and Centofante 3, all good looking knives, all made in Japan and all with VG10 steel. With all of this said, the Polestar and Alcyone at these price points do not belong in the “Value” line. I strongly feel that any knife in their Value line should fall below $50. And honestly, I dont feel that this knife has been made with much higher quality materials than the Tenacious and Percistence. G-10 from what I can tell is the same, just different color pattern, steel is a bit better, but not by much. So if the Tenacious goes for roughly $45 and the Percistence for $38, with the Polestar and Alcyone being marginally better in quality...$45 and $50 respectively is where I feel these knives should be priced.

Well, thats it for my rant...still have much love for Spyderco anyway. The two knives I have purchased recently will NOT be the last :) :) :spyder: :spyder:
Last edited by JaseRicco on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby TriggerThumb » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:18 pm

My opinion is that the market will decide whether or not they are overpriced. If it's not an attractive option for you, then you wont buy it. There are many spyderco I scoff at the idea of buying, but I am happy that other people find joy in their purchase. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Also, there is probably a great variance in what I think something is worth, and what it costs to produce, and what the manufacturer can sell for at a reasonable price. I trust Sal&Co to charge fairly, therefore I don't question when a price seems steep. Just my opinion.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:21 pm

TriggerThumb wrote:My opinion is that the market will decide whether or not they are overpriced. If it's not an attractive option for you, then you wont buy it. There are many spyderco I scoff at the idea of buying, but I am happy that other people find joy in their purchase. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Also, there is probably a great variance in what I think something is worth, and what it costs to produce, and what the manufacturer can sell for at a reasonable price. I trust Sal&Co to charge fairly, therefore I don't question when a price seems steep. Just my opinion.

Agree completely with your post. There are balances and tradeoffs that have to be compromised and Spyderco is excellent. I do not question their price decisions either. I am glad they have so many great designs within a wide range of budget options.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “Value Lineup”

Postby JaseRicco » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:30 pm

Right, I agree. What I am saying is that if you are going to label something as a “Budget/Value” knife, then one needs to price it accordingly. So maybe both knives are priced accurately as far as cost of production is concerned, but then just place them in the regular lineup instead of trying to pass them off as something they are not...“Budget/Value” knives. I watched plenty of reviews on both of these knives, and 9 times out of 10 the review of the knives were good, but on the budget, most agreed overpriced. So I guess I have a problem with the label more than the actual cost.

Good points raised by both of you though.
Last edited by JaseRicco on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby TriggerThumb » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:40 pm

:D
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby BrianMcCord » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:25 am

This price point comes from shipping US steel to China in an attempt to make everyone happy, from what I understand. A value folder from China, with a US steel. I'm sure the price-point would be lower with 8cr13mov. I have ZERO experience with CTS-BD1, but for some reason, it is more appealing than 8cr. Just Spyderco offering more options, I suppose.

Are you unhappy with these knives? If you choose not to return them, I would be glad to take them off of your hands, for a fair price.

Sorry about your experience, but thank you for being respectful about your issue.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby vivi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:07 am

CTSBD1 is a very nice steel that I would be more than happy to see in more spyderco designs from any country.

I think the price is fine on these models. I'd buy a Polestar if it were a lockback. Aside from the lock it hits all the right marks for me.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby zhyla » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:00 am

Disclaimer: I haven't handled either of these knives, though I do own an Ambitious and a Tenacious.
JaseRicco wrote:a Tenacious with Gray G-10 scales and CTS BD1 steel, and a Percistence with Gray G-10 and CTS BD1 Steel.
I think this is probably the wrong way to come at these knives. Just because they're G-10 slab handles with liner locks doesn't mean they should cost the same as all knives that share their construction. Without having them in hand to evaluate their fit and finish I can't really comment on whether that's a good price for these knives or not. I would hope that Spyderco has upped their game a little on this. The Tenacious line is good but for their 2nd major Chinese line I bet they've made improvements.

Secondly these are G-10 slab handle construction. They can't be compared to an FRN Delica in price. That's like saying why would you buy a PM2 when a Delica is half the price?

I'm really happy to see more Chinese made knives from Spyderco. Despite Vivi's glowing praise for CTS-BD1 in another thread, I question its use here. We're seeing a lot of Chinese knives running D2. I think I'd much rather have D2 if given the choice. And that would probably reduce the price.

But I'm not without a complaint here... where's the SE versions? The SE Tenacious is a beast. An SE Alcyone would be fantastic.

Oh, and one last thing on the price. OP, what similar knives from other companies are priced lower than these?

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby sal » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:09 am

Hi JaseRicco,

"Overpriced" is a value judgement that generally means the the product is not worth the price being charged, in the opinion of the speaker.

Probably some history and "edge-u-cation" might help? We've been making the Tenacious for some time. We use a Chinese steel (8Cr13MoV) in the Tenacious family. For years forumites have been asking for a Tenacious type model, but with a better steel, preferably a US steel.

I designed the Polestar and the Alcyone to be affordable folders, primarily for the Scout market. The Scouts have been enjoying our affordable Chinese made knives. I spent a long time in product development of the designs with many models and prototypes before I was satisfied that the design was as good as it could be given the parameters. I personally enjoy carrying both. The Polestar is a mini Military model with all of the some features (less the finger choil, giving better edge/handle interface) and the Alcyone a smaller version of that. The Polestar also has a a shorter blade than the Military which makes it legal in many areas where the Millie is too long.

Due to the requests on steel, I decided to use a USA made steel that at least one of the makers had the equipment to properly heat treat. That steel was Carpenter's CTS-BD1, which is a refinement of Hitcahi's Gingami I. The added costs is the use of the USA made steel and the makers investment in equipment. I must admit that Eric felt the market would not appreciate the cost difference and it appears as though he was correct. Sales are slow on the 2 models and I have been studying the models to determine the next direction. I thought the gray G-10 might be a detractor, I decided that it is nice subtle color with reasonable texture that is not black.

I'm carrying a Polestar today.

Options:

1) Make the models in China with 8Cr13MoV and black G-10 Which will put it into direct competition with the Tenacious and Efficient.
2) Make the models in Taiwan with a higher grade steel and some other colored G-10. This will make it more expensive, take it out of the affordable range, but produce a **** fine design (IMO) that is highly refined at a very good quality.
3) Make the models in Golden with a special steel like CPM Cruwear and an off color G-10, knowing this would more than double the current price.
4) Try to educate the consumer as to the real value of the knife as is.

Your thoughts?

sal

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Re:Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “Value Lineup”

Postby JaseRicco » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:21 am

BrianMcCord wrote: but for some reason, it is more appealing than 8cr. Just Spyderco offering more options, I suppose.

Are you unhappy with these knives? If you choose not to return them, I would be glad to take them off of your hands, for a fair price.

Sorry about your experience, but thank you for being respectful about your issue.
More appealing because it’s USA made, which I agree with.

Couldn’t be unhappy with them as I have not purchased either knife. I was perusing Spyderco’s Value Lineup for a third knife when I came across the Polestar and Alcyone. My first thought was that they were both overpriced at above $60, and when watching reviews on the knives, this same point about them being overpriced kept coming up in both the reviews and commments. So I figured I would take to, my new home, the Spyderco Forum lol, and rant a little.

Thanks for saying so.
Last edited by JaseRicco on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby Ankerson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:24 am

I think the budget priced customers are more fickle in general than most other customers who buy in the other price ranges.

And there is a lot of competition in the lower price ranges as we all know so I think it's hard to introduce new models in that range.

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Re:Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “Value Lineup”

Postby JaseRicco » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:29 am

Ankerson wrote:I think the budget priced customers are more fickle in general than most other customers who buy in the other price ranges.
Of course they/we are. The terms budget and fickle often go hand and hand.
Last edited by JaseRicco on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “Value Lineup”

Postby JaseRicco » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:34 am

Vivi wrote:CTSBD1 is a very nice steel that I would be more than happy to see in more spyderco designs from any country.

I think the price is fine on these models. I'd buy a Polestar if it were a lockback. Aside from the lock it hits all the right marks for me.

Of course it is...it’s USA made, and would love to see this steel rather than a Chinese steel.

Funny how we all have different preferences. A preference for me is liner lock instead of lock back. :) :) :spyder: :spyder:
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby TriggerThumb » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:35 am

Sal, thanks for your input here. It is fascinating to get insight into the makers perspective.

I wish these knives were more in line with my wants and needs, as the g10 color is hands down my favorite in the lineup. Still within the realm of possibility for me, but not soon as there are so many knives yet to collect! I still don't even have 's delica!!
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby Ankerson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:36 am

sal wrote:Hi JaseRicco,

"Overpriced" is a value judgement that generally means the the product is not worth the price being charged, in the opinion of the speaker.

Probably some history and "edge-u-cation" might help? We've been making the Tenacious for some time. We use a Chinese steel (8Cr13MoV) in the Tenacious family. For years forumites have been asking for a Tenacious type model, but with a better steel, preferably a US steel.

I designed the Polestar and the Alcyone to be affordable folders, primarily for the Scout market. The Scouts have been enjoying our affordable Chinese made knives. I spent a long time in product development of the designs with many models and prototypes before I was satisfied that the design was as good as it could be given the parameters. I personally enjoy carrying both. The Polestar is a mini Military model with all of the some features (less the finger choil, giving better edge/handle interface) and the Alcyone a smaller version of that. The Polestar also has a a shorter blade than the Military which makes it legal in many areas where the Millie is too long.

Due to the requests on steel, I decided to use a USA made steel that at least one of the makers had the equipment to properly heat treat. That steel was Carpenter's CTS-BD1, which is a refinement of Hitcahi's Gingami I. The added costs is the use of the USA made steel and the makers investment in equipment. I must admit that Eric felt the market would not appreciate the cost difference and it appears as though he was correct. Sales are slow on the 2 models and I have been studying the models to determine the next direction. I thought the gray G-10 might be a detractor, I decided that it is nice subtle color with reasonable texture that is not black.

I'm carrying a Polestar today.

Options:

1) Make the models in China with 8Cr13MoV and black G-10 Which will put it into direct competition with the Tenacious and Efficient.
2) Make the models in Taiwan with a higher grade steel and some other colored G-10. This will make it more expensive, take it out of the affordable range, but produce a **** fine design (IMO) that is highly refined at a very good quality.
3) Make the models in Golden with a special steel like CPM Cruwear and an off color G-10, knowing this would more than double the current price.
4) Try to educate the consumer as to the real value of the knife as is.

Your thoughts?

sal
Hi Sal,

Personally I would go with option #2 if it was up to me. Something like CPM S35VN would be a nice steel choice.

Would be an all around better knife and appeal to a broader customer base.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby Larry_Mott » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:45 am

Ankerson wrote:
sal wrote:Hi JaseRicco,

"Overpriced" is a value judgement that generally means the the product is not worth the price being charged, in the opinion of the speaker.

Probably some history and "edge-u-cation" might help? We've been making the Tenacious for some time. We use a Chinese steel (8Cr13MoV) in the Tenacious family. For years forumites have been asking for a Tenacious type model, but with a better steel, preferably a US steel.

I designed the Polestar and the Alcyone to be affordable folders, primarily for the Scout market. The Scouts have been enjoying our affordable Chinese made knives. I spent a long time in product development of the designs with many models and prototypes before I was satisfied that the design was as good as it could be given the parameters. I personally enjoy carrying both. The Polestar is a mini Military model with all of the some features (less the finger choil, giving better edge/handle interface) and the Alcyone a smaller version of that. The Polestar also has a a shorter blade than the Military which makes it legal in many areas where the Millie is too long.

Due to the requests on steel, I decided to use a USA made steel that at least one of the makers had the equipment to properly heat treat. That steel was Carpenter's CTS-BD1, which is a refinement of Hitcahi's Gingami I. The added costs is the use of the USA made steel and the makers investment in equipment. I must admit that Eric felt the market would not appreciate the cost difference and it appears as though he was correct. Sales are slow on the 2 models and I have been studying the models to determine the next direction. I thought the gray G-10 might be a detractor, I decided that it is nice subtle color with reasonable texture that is not black.

I'm carrying a Polestar today.

Options:

1) Make the models in China with 8Cr13MoV and black G-10 Which will put it into direct competition with the Tenacious and Efficient.
2) Make the models in Taiwan with a higher grade steel and some other colored G-10. This will make it more expensive, take it out of the affordable range, but produce a **** fine design (IMO) that is highly refined at a very good quality.
3) Make the models in Golden with a special steel like CPM Cruwear and an off color G-10, knowing this would more than double the current price.
4) Try to educate the consumer as to the real value of the knife as is.

Your thoughts?

sal
Hi Sal,

Personally I would go with option #2 if it was up to me. Something like CPM S35VN would be a nice steel choice.

Would be an all around better knife and appeal to a broader customer base.
I'm leaning towards option #2 as well, but i might be biased, using and preferring the Byrd Raven 2 by a country mile out of the value line models.
The way i see it you're kind of competing with yourself in a market segment where the customer ultimately goes for the cheapest option.
Mind you, these are just my personal thoughts.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Sharp Guy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:08 pm

I like the Alcyone, including the choice of scales and BD1 steel. I think it's a great value and definitely belongs in the Value Line. The only thing holding me back from buying one is that it's made in China. That probably wouldn't be a deal breaker but I also have a pile of other knives and more on pre-order. So I I'm trying to be a little more selective on what I purchase.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Wanimator » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:24 pm

The US choice is appealing, and may benefit from a rebranding of the knife, like a name change to work well and convince everybody that it's new

The second Taiwanese option seems to be more easily integrated jnto the current lineup but it would certainly be less of a standout than if it were Cruwear and USA made.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby zhyla » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:29 pm

Sal, thanks for the very informative post. It’s nice to see that kind of insight into the business.

What are your thoughts on D2 for the value line?

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby sal » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:50 pm

XHP seems to be preferred over D2.

sal


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