Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

[Joris Mo]

Thanx Joris,

I agree with you, but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.

sal

That would be a real shame, do hope that the design might still be used someday if this version doesn't make it. Maybe make it a regular version and see if it will hold up with regular production knives.
(or like I suggested elsewhere make the Polestar in Cruwear with linerless G10 and a backlock :D )

[sal]

You would prefer a back-lock to a Linerlock. What is your favorite lock? You do get to play with all of them.

sal

[JaseRicco]

You would prefer a back-lock to a Linerlock. What is your favorite lock? You do get to play with all of them.

sal

In my little experience with knives, I prefer linerlocks. My thought process here is that liner locks are extremely easy to close one handed.

:) :spyder:

[olywa]

I really dig the backlock on the Native series, and the new Manix Backlock carries it to a whole 'nuther level.

That being said, the linerlock on my Resilience is solid, robust and authoritative. I use that knife harder than any other folder I own. Takes everything I throw at it and asks for more. When I need a hard-use knife and can't carry a fixed blade, I carry my Resilience.

[zhyla]

Curious what makes the price make sense for you when you haven't handled one to compare and you don't know how the steel compares?

Ah, fair question. I was mainly making the point that the market in general seems to be preferring D2 as a better-than-8Cr steel and from a marketability point of view BD1 doesn't do this line any favors. I only briefly owned a BD1 Spyderco and all I know is it sharpens easy. Given the choice of a $40 Tenacious and a $60 Polestar I think I'd just take the Tenacious. If I handled a Polestar I suspect I'd realize whatever effort Sal put into the knife is worth the extra $20.

But that's me. It's good to remember that while most of us don't blink at a $60 knife, for a lot of people that's the very top end of their knife budget.

So in short, for Spyderco knives, at least for me, they would have to be Ganzo-level prices to get me to open my wallet for any China/Taiwan made knives.

This is an often discussed topic, but I would say we're past the point where Chinese knives are automatically suspect. It's kind of a mess, some brands have very poor crap from China and good knives from China. Spyderco seems to only be making good knives in China. And then there's some brands that only make super high end knives in China.

Taiwanese Spyderco's have long been well regarded.

You would prefer a back-lock to a Linerlock. What is your favorite lock? You do get to play with all of them.

sal

I think for value folders the liner lock makes great sense. Especially since the Tenacious line has great liner locks (robust, easy to access). I used to avoid liner locks but so many great designs out there use them and I got used to it.

CBB is my favorite, but it's not the kind of lock you can shove into any design, I get that. Nothing wrong with a good back lock either.

[MichaelScott]

In general, I prefer Spyderco's rendition of the back lock. All of mine have been positive, strong and it is easy to tell if the lock hasn’t fully engaged (some bit caught up in the works). I have two one-hand closing techniques so that’s not an issue.

[Surfingringo]

This is an interesting discussion because it has, so far, centered around the idea of value compared to price (or cost). I submit the “value” of the Polestar and Alcyone are dependent on a potential buyer’s attitudes and reasons for buying a knife in the first place. Most discussion on these knives relate to the idea that there is, or should be, a category defined as a “Value Lineup”. This lineup is really defined by price to the buyer as the sole value attribute. Given this as a starting point, the Polestar and Alcyone don’t fit in. If one is constrained solely by purchase price, the argument is moot: no, they don’t “fit in”.

However, if the perspective of value is broadened to include other attributes such as materials, ergonomics, task-usefulness (can the blade cut well for the intended uses and can it be readily maintained and will it resist damage under normal use, things like that), longevity and quality of construction and after-sales support, then these two knives must be perceived as definitely in the upper range of any “value lineup”, justifying their approximately 30% price increase over, say, the Tenacious family. What is 30%? In this case, about $20, which won’t get you and another person into a movie theatre these days but might pay for a quality burger dinner for two.

I think the Polestar and Alcyone are knives for the educated knife buyer and user, especially those who may be on a limited income and have few funds to spare for more exotic and sophisticated knives. The main problem will be how to succcessfully market them for that audience.

Very astute post Michael. I think you hit the nail on the head with your point about what we really mean by "Value lineup". Honestly, I don't think there is any more "value" in the value line (in the most literal sense of the word) than in other areas of the Spydero lineup. I also agree with you that most people, at least as it relates to the value line knives, are using price as the sole definition of value. I also kind of think that the value line isn't so much a value line as it is a budget line. And it seems that's how people want to define it.

I'm not so sure, however, that education is the answer here. I think there's a lot to be said for keeping it simple when it comes to putting options in front of the consumer. I think the easiest way to market the value line knives is by price. In other words, define a line of knives by their price range (say $25-$45) and make the best knives you can that fit inside that price point. Once you start moving into the "no man's land" between that line and the next then sales (as you suggested) become dependent on educating the client on things like what value really means. That's a daunting task and probably doesn't make for an efficient sales model.

disclaimer: I'm a crusty old surfer and haven't been in the business world for almost 2 decades. I was also a C+ economics student in college. So be sure to give the above opinions the respect they deserve based on that resume! :rolleyes: :cool:

[Surfingringo]

One other thought, country of origin plays a HUGE part in this perception. Lets say Spyderco had decided to make the Polestar in Golden and they had managed to cut enough costs on materials and manufacturing to produce that knife for the same $65 that the China made version sells for. Let's also assume, for the sake of argument, that the knife that Golden produced for $65 had the exact same fit, finish, and quality as the current China made Polestar. I'd wager that the Polestar would be selling like hotcakes and people would be marveling at the value of that $65 knife made in Golden. Yet as it is, we have the exact same knife that is viewed by some as not a very good value. The only difference in those two hypothetical knives is the country of origin yet their value would be perceived COMPLETELY differently.

[Joris Mo]

You would prefer a back-lock to a Linerlock. What is your favorite lock? You do get to play with all of them.

sal

Backlock is my favorite, I'm not very worried about Spyderco folders closing on me whatever the lock but most can still open a bit too easy too my liking. The backlock is in my opinion the safest lock because it is also very good at keeping the blade closed when it's not supposed to open.
(CBBL is quite good at keeping a knife closed/pulling it back in when almost closed)
I have used all different types of locks, carried PM and PM2 as main edc for years and have owned probably over 150 Spydies through the years but came to the conclusion that some of the more hazardous situations that where lock related were when a knife fell or when I jumped or whatever and a folder would open when not supposed to.
My favorite edc's during the past year, besides the Polestar, have been the Native 5 LW, UKPK droppoint,Hawkbill Dragonfly, Stretch 2 LW and Police 4.
The current Golden backlocks are also some of the best I've ever seen, loved the one on the Manix backlock as well but the handle is a bit too thick for my liking. Will be interested in a G10 Native now that they are linerless!

I am aware that my taste is probably not the standard commercial taste, sometimes seems like many people consider backlocks old fashioned and I even prefer tip-down carry so there's probably something wrong with me which might be why I appreciate Spyderco's relatively weird designs so much. :D

[Joris Mo]

And yes I must agree with Gringo, I believe that it could've been a hit if it was made in Golden for a bit more as well.

[MichaelScott]

Lance,
I believe you are correct. Rather than “value”, “budget” seems to be one of the main operating perceptions here. “Value” does have to include, as you suggest, country of origin. Good catch! Even though the concept of value is generally very subjective I think you are absolutely correct in positing that it must for most people, include where and by whom a product is made. Objectively it may make no difference as you point out, but I also think that plays a significant role in people’s perceptions of these two knives.

Marketing and education appear to be strange bedfellows, especially in the “budget” arena. I don’t see how you could quickly and effectively educate buyers in the budget category as to the nuanced and possibly sophisticated advantages of what appear to be very similar products but that are priced differently enough to cause concern of the buyer. In this case, would it be worth the time and expense to do so? I expect not, and I wouldn’t know where to start anyway.

The last twenty years or so of my working life was spent in the corporate worlds. Now I think that didn’t matter all that much since marketing, customers, product education and all the rest remain pretty much mysteries and those who claim to understand them really don’t.

Pretty soon I’ll be back in the river fly fishing for trout. I’ll pack one of my Spydercos along, not to clean fish but to scare them into being more careful next time.

[JaseRicco]

Thanx Joris,
...but it seems that the price is more important to most than the design or the fit and finish. As it is going now, they probably won't survive.
sal

I think that when you get into the "budget" or "value" part of the market, price truly becomes the largest concern, at the expense of most or all other concerns. I'm generalizing, but the average buyer of a Tenacious just doesn't care about a slightly-better steel but at a significant cost increase (and in this price area, ~$20 is significant). They are probably a "normal" person i.e. non-enthusiast, and they probably don't know better and don't care and just want the cheaper price, especially when they are already spending a "large" amount of money on a knife (as opposed to the ~$5-10 "knife" next to the Tenacious in the case at Wal-Mart or Dick's).

In that price range and for the typical customer who buys knives in that range price really is everything.

Even $5 or less can infuence them to buy something else.

With 2 knives in the case sitting next to each other most of them will pick the cheaper one.

Now that's not to say that everyone would because there are people around that do have a large varity of knives from various ranges.

It's just a tough customer base that shops in that price range, although some do evolve and learn and start to see the value in the higher end models. For those people get to experience the more refined designs, steels and fit and finish and can appreciate what goes into them.

Price is only more important than design, fit and finish when it comes to Value/Budget Knives. At this level customers are just not that concerned with higher end qualities mostly because they are content getting a decent quality knife at a great price, and because they don’t know much about the higher quality knives and what goes into producing them. Like Dplafoll stated, price is the biggest concern in this type of market. And like Ankerson stated, the slightest increase or deviation from a certain price point is going to scare this market rather than attract them.

A perfect example of this is my experience. I just recently made the decision to start carrying an EDC type of folder. And the fist thing that I did was google these exact words...”best affordable edc knives”. This search yielded lots of results, and some of those results were of the Spyderco Value Folders. At this point I cared very little of the type of steel, type of lock, scales and didn’t even have a size in mind. I simply wanted the best, good looking quality knife I could afford...period. And to my surprise, when I visited the Spyderco’s website, there was an entire line of knives that fit this description. So I certainly applaud what you have done offering these types of knives for those of us that cannot afford a higher end knife. And its not just about being able to afford the purchase, it’s also about affording the replacement. As I have said before, not only can I afford to buy these budget knives, but I can afford to replace them if something were to happen.

Its a shame that the two knives “may not survive”, because they are good looking designs and look like quality knives.

:) :spyder:

[zhyla]

Its a shame that the two knives “may not survive”, because they are good looking designs and look like quality knives.

They can’t all be winners. On the bright side if they go on clearance we can all pick them up at a discount :).

[JaseRicco]

Its a shame that the two knives “may not survive”, because they are good looking designs and look like quality knives.

They can’t all be winners. On the bright side if they go on clearance we can all pick them up at a discount :).

This is true.

I’d love that, cause thats about the only way that I’m gonna be able to pick them up.

:) :spyder:

[cabfrank]

I'm still disappointed for Sal, and all the work he put in, if the model doesn't take off though. I guess he's probably had a few like that, but vastly more that were runaway hits.

[JaseRicco]

I'm still disappointed for Sal, and all the work he put in, if the model doesn't take off though. I guess he's probably had a few like that, but vastly more that were runaway hits.

Of course. These two knives were personally designed by Sal, so it’s a shame. But as Zhyla stated, they can’t all be winners. And Spyderco has had a ton of winners. Not sure if you read some of my posts, but when I was looking for quality knives, all I kept seeing was Spyderco Spyderco Spyderco. So I am thrilled with my decision to start a Spyderco Collection.

:) :spyder:

[cabfrank]

You'll be very happy. I've had many brands, but I only buy Spyderco, for many years now.

[JaseRicco]

You'll be very happy. I've had many brands, but I only buy Spyderco, for many years now.

Completely Agree

[Donut]

I was going to comment that the Raven 2 is a pretty exceptional model, but now I wonder, where does the price difference between the Raven and these two models come from?

Also, there seem to be a lot of knives coming out of China from other brand names with steel called "D2". Is that really ingot D2? I feel like D2 would be an upgrade to 8Cr13 or even BD1 (for wear resistance). D2 would make a nice Tenacious or Raven 2.

[Nate]

Also, there seem to be a lot of knives coming out of China from other brand names with steel called "D2". Is that really ingot D2? I feel like D2 would be an upgrade to 8Cr13 or even BD1 (for wear resistance). D2 would make a nice Tenacious or Raven 2.

I've seen speculation that the commonly used Chinese "D2" is Cr12MoV, which is a D2 equivalent, but with much lower Vanadium, so the wear resistance likely isn't going to be there if accurate.