Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

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Re:Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “Value Lineup”

Postby JaseRicco » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:00 pm

Thanks for the info Sal..very much appreciated. Rare to see an owner educate their consumers and offer some insight to their business.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in their “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby elena86 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:29 pm

sal wrote:XHP seems to be preferred over D2.

sal
That would be amazing :eek: CTS-XHP is a superb steel in my book.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby vivi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Larry_Mott wrote:i might be biased, using and preferring the Byrd Raven 2 by a country mile out of the value line models.
The way i see it you're kind of competing with yourself in a market segment where the customer ultimately goes for the cheapest option.
Mind you, these are just my personal thoughts.
I'm in a similar boat. I own some Cara Cara 2's and I can't think of a modern clipped folder under $50 I'd rather carry, much less under $25. I gifted an Efficient and Tenacious, and while I felt the fit and finish were a step above the Cara Cara FRN, I still prefer the design of the Cara Cara. The size, ergonomics, blade shape and lock work really well for me.

There are really only two others folders under $100 I like as much. The Pacific Salt is nice for the more contoured handle scales and of course the rust proof H1 blade. The Cold Steel Large Voyager has a nice FFG CTSBD1 blade, strong lock and a beefy, comfortable handle, but lacks my preferred spyder hole. The Cara Cara holds its own against both.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone Both OVERPRICED

Postby MichaelScott » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:08 pm

sal wrote:. For years forumites have been asking for a Tenacious type model, but with a better steel, preferably a US steel.

I must admit that Eric felt the market would not appreciate the cost difference and it appears as though he was correct. Sales are slow on the 2 models and I have been studying the models to determine the next direction. I thought the gray G-10 might be a detractor, I decided that it is nice subtle color with reasonable texture that is not black.

Options:

1) Make the models in China with 8Cr13MoV and black G-10 Which will put it into direct competition with the Tenacious and Efficient.
2) Make the models in Taiwan with a higher grade steel and some other colored G-10. This will make it more expensive, take it out of the affordable range, but produce a **** fine design (IMO) that is highly refined at a very good quality.
3) Make the models in Golden with a special steel like CPM Cruwear and an off color G-10, knowing this would more than double the current price.
4) Try to educate the consumer as to the real value of the knife as is.

Your thoughts?

sal
I think the knives are caught in the twilight zone between the Tenacious family and the more refined models like the Manix, Native, PM2 & 3. There is not enough, for the average buyer not well versed in knife steels and technology, to clearly differentiate them from the Tenacious family or identify them with the higher quality offerings. I am not an uneducated knife aficionado but they slipped right by me. To the majority of potential buyers who are looking for folding or EDC knives in the “budget”range there is little at first glance to justify their “higher” prices. The knife market is awash in locking folding knives the $30 - $50 range. Just take a stroll through Amazon, any internet knife retailer, etc. and see for yourself. The myriad offerings in this range attempt to differentiate themselves with color, prehistoric handle shapes, ninja blade shapes and other relatively function-free attributes. I’d say 90% of their potential buyers don’t know the differences among the main types of knife steels, nor care that much.

A knife buyer must have a certain level of knowledge about steels, but also about design, ergonomics and how those relate to the intended use and function of a particular knife in order to make an informed choice. Otherwise, it boils down to what looks the coolest and the best price.

About that gray G10, not so much. For a design that is very similar to the Tenacious family, the gray color and obvious pattern are not strong statements and give the knife a kind of ho-hum appearance. It’s an opinion of course, but I think well founded.

As to your options. Number 1 is not good. Why would you want yet another model to compete with the Tenacious and Efficient? Especially one that doesn’t differentiate itself from the Tenacious by that much?

Option 2: What other Spyderco knives would the new Polestar compete with? What would be it’s advantage over them? It would be a matter of education to get the new Polestar situated favorably with other Spydercos in the similar price range. And still there would be that nagging similarity with the Tenacious family at a considerably lower price point.

Option 3: Pretty much the same objections as Option 2, only more so since the price would be in the PM2 and PM3 range for example.

Option 4: Very difficult. I would think that buyers in the Polestar’s price range would be difficult to educate since they would already have to appreciate ergonomics, steel and quality of construction then be shown how those relate to the Polestar. And, once one does understand and appreciate those values it would seem likely that, unless funds were a real constraint, one would be prompted to move to a model that incorporates more and better attributes.

The Polestar and it’s little cousin are in a tough place. Adding on about $20 to get a Polestar instead of a Tenacious makes a lot of sense if you understand the differences and how much more $20 will buy but I don’t think most people will take that leap.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby RamZar » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:11 pm

Make Polestar and Alcyone with linerless FRN.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby sal » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:36 pm

Pretty hard to make Linerlock without liners?

sal

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Sharp Guy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:39 pm

sal wrote:Pretty hard to make Linerlock without liners?

sal
Haha! Excellent point!
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby RamZar » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:58 pm

sal wrote:Pretty hard to make Linerlock without liners?

sal
Sorry. Didn’t know they were liner locks. However, you can have a light inexpensive liner lock with FRN & D2 for under $40.
Last edited by RamZar on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Nate » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:08 pm

Option 5) Are there any other Chinese steels that could be used on these models to offer an upgrade and differentiate them from the other value line offerings, while not being as expensive as US steel?

Otuerwise have to agree with MichaelScott's thoughts, sounds like these models are in a tough spot.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby npad69 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:53 pm

This is what I like most about this forum, even if it always drains my wallet dry, I always learn something each day

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby NickShabazz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:37 am

I'd always thought of this line as being the evolution, design wise, of the Tenacious and pals. I'd love to see them continue to be made in China, maybe with something like 14C28N or D2 (which would be a nice boost from 8Cr), and gradually replacing the Tenacious line.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby olywa » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:08 am

I lean towards option 2 with XHP. Thanks for inviting open discourse on this Sal.

(I'd also like to see the Efficient get the same treatment plus add a deep-carry wire clip.)

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:19 am

Thanks for the enlightening discussion, Sal!

I'd personally prefer option 2 for a couple reasons - the enthusiasts I know have been clamoring for a premium steel tenacious since forever. I know I'd bite.

Reason: they're the perfect introduction to spyderco design and quality while retaining enough conventional properties (not super lightweight, liner lock) to remain accessible. That makes them WONDERFUL gifts.

Edit: I always thought the G10 on the polestar looked like denim.

If it was actually denim micarta with xhp, that would make for a kickass knife coming in around 100 bucks.
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby the Southerner » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:23 am

JaseRicco wrote:Both the Polestar and Alcyone are good looking knives, which is certainly to be expected from Spyderco. In a very short time I have come to love Spyderco designs and quality. And as far as I can tell, the quality is right on par with the Tenacious and Percistence, as that’s exactly what they are...a Tenacious with Gray G-10 scales and CTS BD1 steel, and a Percistence with Gray G-10 and CTS BD1 Steel. I gotta say though, in my opinion Spyderco definately dropped the ball on the price point of both knives. From what I am seeing the Alcyone can be found for roughly $60 and the Polestar for roughly $64. Considering the fact that you can pick up one of Spyderco’s most beloved knives, the Delica 4, for $69...what’s the deal with the price?? There are plenty of other Spyderco knives as well from Spyderco’s “Non Value” line in the $65-$70 price range as well...you have the Endura 4, dragonfly 2 and Centofante 3, all good looking knives, all made in Japan and all with VG10 steel. With all of this said, the Polestar and Alcyone at these price points do not belong in the “Value” line. I strongly feel that any knife in their Value line should fall below $50. And honestly, I dont feel that this knife has been made with much higher quality materials than the Tenacious and Percistence. G-10 from what I can tell is the same, just different color pattern, steel is a bit better, but not by much. So if the Tenacious goes for roughly $45 and the Percistence for $38, with the Polestar and Alcyone being marginally better in quality...$45 and $50 respectively is where I feel these knives should be priced.

Well, thats it for my rant...still have much love for Spyderco anyway. The two knives I have purchased recently will NOT be the last :) :) :spyder: :spyder:
They used to be priced at $50, but Spyderco has gotten greedy, thanks to how loud this echo-chamber is, and so now something that cost $50 last Monday now costs $70 today. And Spyderco lied about why they raised the price this time. Last time it was because of the Amazon boogeyman, which makes sense, don't want to allow one dealer to control you because then they'll suck the blood out of you. However, Amazon complied perfectly with the %40 MAP price floor instituted in 2016, so Spyderco's "muh dealers" argument this time is a straight up lie, they're just jacking the price because they think you're enough of a sucker to pay it. This makes you wonder about the sincerity of the first MAP.

Boycott Spyderco until the prices come back down, and buy Cold Steel in the meantime. Now that they're using CTS-XHP and S35vn, along with what is easily the best lock in the business and unskeletonized g10, Cold Steel has objectively better knives and value. The only thing Spyderco guys can still say is "well, we have American made knives!" Yeah, and 75% of Spyderco's production occurs outside the US, so it's a non-point.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby BrianMcCord » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:30 am

sal wrote:Pretty hard to make Linerlock without liners?

sal
Too funny!
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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby the Southerner » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:33 am

JaseRicco wrote:Both the Polestar and Alcyone are good looking knives, which is certainly to be expected from Spyderco. In a very short time I have come to love Spyderco designs and quality. And as far as I can tell, the quality is right on par with the Tenacious and Percistence, as that’s exactly what they are...a Tenacious with Gray G-10 scales and CTS BD1 steel, and a Percistence with Gray G-10 and CTS BD1 Steel. I gotta say though, in my opinion Spyderco definately dropped the ball on the price point of both knives. From what I am seeing the Alcyone can be found for roughly $60 and the Polestar for roughly $64. Considering the fact that you can pick up one of Spyderco’s most beloved knives, the Delica 4, for $69...what’s the deal with the price?? There are plenty of other Spyderco knives as well from Spyderco’s “Non Value” line in the $65-$70 price range as well...you have the Endura 4, dragonfly 2 and Centofante 3, all good looking knives, all made in Japan and all with VG10 steel. With all of this said, the Polestar and Alcyone at these price points do not belong in the “Value” line. I strongly feel that any knife in their Value line should fall below $50. And honestly, I dont feel that this knife has been made with much higher quality materials than the Tenacious and Percistence. G-10 from what I can tell is the same, just different color pattern, steel is a bit better, but not by much. So if the Tenacious goes for roughly $45 and the Percistence for $38, with the Polestar and Alcyone being marginally better in quality...$45 and $50 respectively is where I feel these knives should be priced.

Well, thats it for my rant...still have much love for Spyderco anyway. The two knives I have purchased recently will NOT be the last :) :) :spyder: :spyder:
Spyderco just jacked their prices because they think you will pay more for the same item today compared to what it cost on Monday, the "Amazon" excuse is a lie. Boycott them and buy Cold Steel instead, Cold Steel has objectively better knives and value now that they're using modern high carbide steels.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby sal » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:18 am

Hi Southerner,

Welcome to our forum.

I do think you do not understand our pricing. We believed that charging as much as the market will bare is biting the hand that feeds you, so we try to keep our prices as reasonable as possible and still run our business.

As far as coming on to our forum and trying to promote Cold Steel, you probably won't get a favorable response. In fact it looks like you are trolling, which may be sport on the forums to which you are accustomed, but we try to avoid it here. Cold Steel makes a good knife, and Lynn has always been quality conscious. I can see that you are a Cold Steel fan by your combative attitude, but try to keep in mind that the culture of this forum is somewhat unique in that we try hard to be civil and informative. "My dad can lick your dad" is a bit immature here.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Ankerson » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am

Cold Steel has some good products for sure, I know because I tested a lot of them over the years.

But as Sal said this is the Spyderco Company forum so it's not in the best form to promote Cold Steel here.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby the Southerner » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:43 am

sal wrote:Hi Southerner,

Welcome to our forum.

I do think you do not understand our pricing. We believed that charging as much as the market will bare is biting the hand that feeds you, so we try to keep our prices as reasonable as possible and still run our business.

As far as coming on to our forum and trying to promote Cold Steel, you probably won't get a favorable response. In fact it looks like you are trolling, which may be sport on the forums to which you are accustomed, but we try to avoid it here. Cold Steel makes a good knife, and Lynn has always been quality conscious. I can see that you are a Cold Steel fan by your combative attitude, but try to keep in mind that the culture of this forum is somewhat unique in that we try hard to be civil and informative. "My dad can lick your dad" is a bit immature here.

sal
Again, the Amazon justification made sense with the first price floor you instituted back in 2016 because you really could get, for example, a Delica for $36 like new "used" condition from the warehouse. That's probably unfair to you or your favored dealers because people with overhead simply can't compete with that. However, the second price floor you instituted came after Amazon absolutely complied with the 2016 MAP, so by then everyone was on a leveled playing field, the only way Amazon could go lower was if someone was selling a used knife, and that is outside the process so used knives don't matter. So your Amazon argument this time just doesn't make sense because Amazon was nullified by the 2016 price floor.

I mean, obviously you charge what you think you can get from people. That's what business is, Spyderco isn't a charity. However, I'm kinda surprised that you think the people you're up-charging won't fight back against you as you are fighting against them.

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Re: Spyderco’s Polestar & Alcyone should not be in the “VALUE LINEUP”

Postby Ankerson » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:49 am

Amazon isn't the only place to buy knives, there are a lot of good reputable dealers around.

I have never bought a knife off Amazon.


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