Where is the new, improved Advocate?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
flash900
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Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#1

Post by flash900 »

The January Byte says that, "all Advocate knives in current production feature an improved pivot construction with thicker steel washers and larger ball bearings seated in a phosphor bronze housing. This enhanced version of the Advocate is in stock now and ready to ship."

But if you go to Spyderco's listing for the Advocate, it says "out of stock."

When it is back in stock, how will we know whether it's the improved version?

Kizer had a similar situation when it reissued an improved version of the Feist folder without marking it in any way as new or improved.

I had one of the original Advocates. Mine operated perfectly.

Sadly, it was stolen along with many other Spydercos and other knives in my collection.

I was reluctant to gamble on finding another that was issue-free until I saw the notice in the Byte.

Question: Has Spyderco recalled all existing stock or marked the improved model in any way?

Thank you.
elduderino04
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#2

Post by elduderino04 »

I'm assuming that Spyderco is treating the Advocate reissue in the same way as its other CQI efforts, in which case there likely won't be any overt mark indicating whether the knife is the new version (although I have seen some knives that have a date stamp that's visible upon disassembly. Perhaps all newer knives have this?) I would think, however, given the amount of time that has passed since production was halted (I believe it was early Spring 2017), any that you find in stock going forward will be the improved version.

If you want to make sure you're getting the new version, I imagine you could call whichever dealer you're buying from and ask them when they received the shipment you're purchasing.
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RamZar
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#3

Post by RamZar »

The two letter code on the box should indicate month and year it was manufactured. I’m assuming those on or after January 2018 (AR) would be the CQI Advocates?

Here’s a link to the January 2018 Spyderco Byte:

https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... 963d2ec1ef
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TazKristi
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#4

Post by TazKristi »

Hey, flash900:
The updated Advocate is an inline change so we did not mark or call out anything different. Just as we've done with any other inline change. We just started shipping it again this week. Our website inventory hasn't been updated yet, only because between SHOT Show and a couple of local events we've been short-staffed and running a little crazy. We'll get inventory added to the site tomorrow but we're sorry for the oversight today when we released the byte.

We did not recall the original production because we truly didn't believe there was a need to. We stopped production and stopped shipping the Advocate in 2017 so that we could take the time to research thoroughly. Our warranty records verified that there were only a handful of knives actually returned to us. The overwhelming majority of owners with an original production Advocate were pleased and had no issues (just like you were prior to your knife being stolen).

Any Advocate now shipping from us has been updated. This includes shipments from SFO as well as those to our Dealers and Distributors. Having said that though, the knives were produced prior to this month so the date code on the box should not be used as an indicator. We would suggest communicating with your chosen retailer to see if they still have original inventory. Since we just started shipping the updated Advocate, Dealers and Distributors won't have them just yet but they will very soon. It's important to note, we stand behind the original and the updated Advocate equally.

I hope this information helps. Thanks much for your continued support and interest.

Kristi
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spyderg
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#5

Post by spyderg »

I don’t have an Advocate but do have a Mantra. I’ve had it apart and looked at the “issues” inside. While I was surprised at how small the bearings are, and my washers are indeed “cupped” there is no sign of it failing, breaking or wearing out in any way. In fact it has gotten smoother the more I’ve used it. I of course applaud Spyderco’s efforts to improve the design, even if it’s not actually necessary. At least from what I have seen personally.
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RamZar
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#6

Post by RamZar »

Image
Image
As some of you may know, in 2017 there was some concern regarding the engineering of the Advocate’s pivot design. We monitored this issue very closely and tracked every Advocate knife returned for warranty evaluation. Although only a handful of Advocates were actually affected, we embraced the opportunity to make this remarkable design even better. We are now proud to announce that all Advocate knives in current production feature an improved pivot construction with thicker steel washers and larger ball bearings seated in a phosphor bronze housing. This enhanced version of the Advocate is in stock now and ready to ship.
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flash900
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#7

Post by flash900 »

Thanks, Kristi and forum folk.
ABX2011
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#8

Post by ABX2011 »

Seems like if they had just changed the lettering on the blade tang - font or size - then one could tell the new from the old. Otherwise there's no way to tell other than from the action. This will create a headache for dealers and customers and complicate resale as well.
Saying "only a handful were affected" strikes me as misleading. I for one did not return mine to warranty because I didn't think it would be fruitful. Instead I sold it at a big loss to someone who was ok with the subpar action.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#9

Post by Liquid Cobra »

ABX2011 wrote:Seems like if they had just changed the lettering on the blade tang - font or size - then one could tell the new from the old. Otherwise there's no way to tell other than from the action. This will create a headache for dealers and customers and complicate resale as well.
Saying "only a handful were affected" strikes me as misleading. I for one did not return mine to warranty because I didn't think it would be fruitful. Instead I sold it at a big loss to someone who was ok with the subpar action.
You might be able to tell simply by looking st the pivot. These bearings are the same one used on the Sliverax. The bearings are easy to see on the Sliverax, so maybe they are on the Advocate as well.
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ABX2011
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#10

Post by ABX2011 »

Hope so. Anyway, I don't think I'll get another one. The handle was a bit thin and slick for me.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#11

Post by haayema »

Will the new washer and ball bearing set up fit in the original Advocate too?
I imagine it doesn't, but thought I'd ask anyway, for completeness.
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TazKristi
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#12

Post by TazKristi »

ABX2011 wrote:Seems like if they had just changed the lettering on the blade tang - font or size - then one could tell the new from the old. Otherwise there's no way to tell other than from the action. This will create a headache for dealers and customers and complicate resale as well.
Saying "only a handful were affected" strikes me as misleading. I for one did not return mine to warranty because I didn't think it would be fruitful. Instead I sold it at a big loss to someone who was ok with the subpar action.
Hey, ABX2001:
I'm not clear on how it's misleading. The information provided is fact. We can't speak to any knives that weren't sent to us for evaluation. If you didn't send your knife to us how could we account for it in our findings? We worked with those who did return their Advocate to us to find a resolution and make it right for each individual. Resolutions included replacement or refund of MSRP. I'm sorry that you chose to sell your Advocate for a "big loss" but by not sending your knife in we never had the opportunity to make things right for you. It sounds as if you are assuming that there were high numbers of other people who made the same choice that you did but we don't like to ever assume anything. We strive to do business in a fair and proper manner. One of the ways that we do that is to rely on facts.
Liquid Cobra wrote:You might be able to tell simply by looking st the pivot. These bearings are the same one used on the Sliverax. The bearings are easy to see on the Sliverax, so maybe they are on the Advocate as well.
This is true. Hopefully, this image helps explain it.
Advocate_Bronze_CloseUp4.png
haayema wrote:Will the new washer and ball bearing set up fit in the original Advocate too?
I imagine it doesn't, but thought I'd ask anyway, for completeness.
Hi, haayema:
No, I'm sorry it won't. There's more to it than just simply swapping them out.

I mentioned this earlier but perhaps it bears repeating, we stand behind the original production Advocate. If someone with an original production Advocate experiences an issue please send it to our Warranty & Repair department for evaluation.

Thanks.

Kristi
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Liquid Cobra
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#13

Post by Liquid Cobra »

Thanks Kristi, great info!
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ABX2011
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#14

Post by ABX2011 »

TazKristi wrote: Hey, ABX2001:
I'm not clear on how it's misleading. The information provided is fact.
It's pretty simple. The original washer/bearing design was poor. The fact that a small fraction of the production was returned to you doesn't mean that the others weren't affected. They were all affected. Some of them showed symptoms of the weak design. Some of those were sent in to warranty.

As a long time Spyderco fan, I appreciate Spyderco's engagement with their customers and their responsiveness. I also think that Spyderco has gone to lengths to say how nothing was wrong with their earlier design but how the new design is better.
Here is what I think is closer to the truth. The initial design was poor. Moreover, it wasn't competitive in terms of delivering a good action.
I've tried lot of flippers on bearings and the few Spydercos that I had with bearings were amongst the worst in terms of action. I had the Mantra, Positron and Advocate.

I'm glad that Spyderco listened to its fans and did what they had to do to compete with the flood of high quality bearing flippers.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#15

Post by NoFair »

ABX2011 wrote:
TazKristi wrote: Hey, ABX2001:
I'm not clear on how it's misleading. The information provided is fact.
It's pretty simple. The original washer/bearing design was poor. The fact that a small fraction of the production was returned to you doesn't mean that the others weren't affected. They were all affected. Some of them showed symptoms of the weak design. Some of those were sent in to warranty.

As a long time Spyderco fan, I appreciate Spyderco's engagement with their customers and their responsiveness. I also think that Spyderco has gone to lengths to say how nothing was wrong with their earlier design but how the new design is better.
Here is what I think is closer to the truth. The initial design was poor. Moreover, it wasn't competitive in terms of delivering a good action.
I've tried lot of flippers on bearings and the few Spydercos that I had with bearings were amongst the worst in terms of action. I had the Mantra, Positron and Advocate.

I'm glad that Spyderco listened to its fans and did what they had to do to compete with the flood of high quality bearing flippers.
Why didn't you just return it? They did fix the issue for everyone who did...
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#16

Post by ABX2011 »

NoFair wrote:Why didn't you just return it? They did fix the issue for everyone who did...
I guess I was impatient. I bought it right after it was released. It had the same "bumpiness" that my Mantra had and I was frustrated that the Advocate wasn't any better.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#17

Post by NickShabazz »

In the long line of things worth freaking out about, the Advocate/Thin Washer issue is pretty low. In all the Spyderco Flippers I had with that setup, I never experienced a problem, and I've done a lot of disassembling and reassembling, so I've seen a fair number.

Certainly the new design is more robust, and is an improvement, but this isn't something I'd recommend letting keep you up at night when ordering one. Even as one of the pickier people out there, and one perhaps more likely than most to complain about a design flaw, this one has always smelled a bit like a tempest in a teacup.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#18

Post by elduderino04 »

ABX2011 wrote:
It's pretty simple. The original washer/bearing design was poor. The fact that a small fraction of the production was returned to you doesn't mean that the others weren't affected. They were all affected. Some of them showed symptoms of the weak design. Some of those were sent in to warranty.

As a long time Spyderco fan, I appreciate Spyderco's engagement with their customers and their responsiveness. I also think that Spyderco has gone to lengths to say how nothing was wrong with their earlier design but how the new design is better.
Here is what I think is closer to the truth. The initial design was poor. Moreover, it wasn't competitive in terms of delivering a good action.
I've tried lot of flippers on bearings and the few Spydercos that I had with bearings were amongst the worst in terms of action. I had the Mantra, Positron and Advocate.

I'm glad that Spyderco listened to its fans and did what they had to do to compete with the flood of high quality bearing flippers.
I don't think those sweeping statements about the design being "poor," that "all" of the Advocates were affected, and that the action wasn't "good," "competitive," and was "among the worst" are valid. These are all based solely on your opinion.

As was just mentioned above, while its possible the bearing race could become cupped on all of the knives, I doubt that's actually the case: I imagine the type of use, lateral forces applied, and the force used to flip it open all affect this. Additionally, even if every bearing race eventually becomes cupped, that doesn't make the design "poor." As was just mentioned above, for some people the action will improve regardless of the state of the bearing race.

It's also important to keep in mind what the bearing race is intended to do: as I understand it, it is a consumable item that is supposed to take the wear from the bearings and protect the softer titanium from wearing prematurely. The purpose ultimately is to lower warranty costs to the manufacturer by allowing them to replace a worn bearing race rather than the entire handle. If a bearing race "wears out" the user is supposed to send their knife to Spyderco for replacement. Keep in mind that MANY manufacturers for years never even bothered to use bearing races, instead allowing bearings to simply engage the titanium handle itself. I don't see how an improvement on those other manufacturer's oversight somehow makes the design "poor." Sure, Spyderco could have originally gone with a thicker race that would take even more wear, but either way the inclusion of a steel bearing race is a massive improvement.

Finally, with regard to your estimation of the quality of the action, this is solely a subjective determination. Some people (myself included) prefer a stiff detent because the flipper is the primary method of deployment. Many others, however, prefer a softer detent that allows for easy use of the thumb hole, Spydie flick, Spydie drop, etc. Likewise, some prefer a frictionless closing while others prefer the more hydraulic closing of, for example, the Sebenza. The fact that you didn't like the action says nothing about the quality of the design itself. Also, you don't say how long you had the knife and whether you gave it a chance to wear in, so you may be making these sweeping statements based solely upon essentially the out of the box action.

I don't mean to imply that you're not entitled to your opinions, just that there is a counterpoint.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#19

Post by TBob »

Thanks, Kristi! Happy New Year! I just ordered an Advocate from your online store. And thank you so much for keeping us up to date on things. I hope that you had a great time at the Shot Show! I miss doing the trade shows and seeing you folks.
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Re: Where is the new, improved Advocate?

#20

Post by flash900 »

Thanks, Kristi.

The person who stole my Advocate sold it on ebay.

Whomever bought it has a perfect Advocate.

Wish I had it back -- but so far, ebay refuses to cooperate with me or the police.
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