Hawkbill Blades: Small vs Bigger? general uses?

[JD Spydo]

Just recently I've seen a phenomenon that has me sort of perplexed ( but happy to see it) concerning Spyderco's Hawkbill blades. Two of the new small Hawkbill models are apparently doing really well at the box office ( sales)>> which has really surprised me greatly :confused: . I've been a Spyderco Hawkbill fan for quite some time now and it's been a tough job trying to evangelize the viable uses of a good Hawkbill blade to knife lovers in general. But at this time I'm wondering exactly why the two new small Hawkbill blades i.e the Spyderco "LadyHawk" ( Ladybug Hawkbill) and the most recent DragonHawk ( Dragonfly Hawkbill) seem to have more popularity than the old stalwart models like the Harpy, Spyderhawk, Superhawk, Merlin and TASMAN. These older more established Hawkbill models seem to have taken a back seat to these newer, smaller Hawkbills and I'm wondering why :confused: ?? The two new smaller Hawkbill models are quickly attaining "rock star" status among the blade loving community ( especially here at Spyderville :rolleyes: )

So tell me you all why are these two new/small Hawkbills gaining more popularity than the bigger/older Hawkbill models have attained up till now? Also I want to know from all of fans of the Spyderco Hawkbill blades what you all mainly use them for? And please tell us whether you use plain edged or Spyderedged Hawkbill blades and how many of you actually EDC a Spyderco Hawkbill model? You might also tell us why you might prefer a Hawkbill out of the Salt Series over the units that are equipped with the more standard/traditional hardware ( blade steel, handle materials, ect, .)

I've seen more talk about Spyderco's Hawkbill blades overall in the past 3 months than I have probably in the past year or so. So let's talk about these topics and what might be fueling this new trend?

[Evil D]

I wonder if it's really a popularity thing or if it's just that (aside from the Tasman and Harpy) they're the only hawkbill options at this time? They're also inexpensive so people who want to dabble with this type of blade can do so without breaking the bank. The reason I like the Dragonfly and Ladybug versions so much really has nothing to do with good/better/best vs a full size hawkbill, I just like them because they're ridiculously capable for such small knives. I plan on getting one of the Spyderhawk sprints when the come out. For a companion blade I think a small to medium sized hawkbill is ideal, because they weigh so little and take up less space. There's just about no good reason to not carry the Dragonfly, even loose in your pocket is all but unnoticeable. With the Spyderhawk I'll need to dedicate it to another pocket, and all my pockets are pretty much taken so that means carrying it as my primary knife, and that changes a lot. Lately I've been carrying my Autonomy and I really haven't missed having a PE, and it just dawned on me today that I have a PE blade on my multitool if I really need it, as well as a saw (my biggest argument against SE is that they can't carve through branches as easily, but the saw takes care of that).

So... we'll see how the Spyderhawk goes, if it sells out or sits on dealer shelves for a year. Honestly I'm not crazy about orange but there's always RIT I suppose.

[ZrowsN1s]

Good points D. I was thinking about asking KP if they can Rit dye a spyderhawk for me like they did my HBDfly.

JD I think David pretty much nailed why the little guys are popular, they make the perfect companion blade, disappear in the pocket, and pack a lot of power. At the lower price point they make a great 'first hawkbill' for people who have yet to experience the potential hawkbills possess.
(the crossbill seems to be gaining popularity for this reason as well)
I also think that once people experience how much cutting power the little guys have, they will be much more open to the idea of a harpy or a spyderhawk. $60 is a lot to spend on 'maybe I will like this', $100+ and it gets more difficult to convince people to try new things.

The standard dragonfly punches above it's weight class and lives up to it's 'little big knife' status, the hawkbill dragonfly does even more so (imo).

To answer your other question, I use my hbdfly for cutting zip ties and tape off of cables, opening mail, packages, opening and breaking down cardboard boxes, cutting thread, removing tags from clothes, I use it to peel carrots, as a butter knife, and to put cream cheese on bagels :D Ect.

[Bloke]

I'd never had any inclination towards HB's or SE's till I bought my Ladybug. I was astonished at how well the little thing performed and how tough H1 is so I bought a Tasman HB as well. I wanted a SE but ordered a PE by mistake. It doesn't matter because I'm very happy with it and I find it perfect for cleaning fish and basically that's all I use it for. It's not too bad for cutting leather either, though a FFG would be better.

I've used the little Ladybug on fish too on occasion but generally EDC and I've not found anything that cuts zip ties like it. :cool:

I was seriously thinking of buying a Spyderhawk too but I really don't have a use for it being as big as it is and I'm holding off buying a HB SE Dragonfly because I think it might push my Ladybug and Tasman into obsolescence. :eek:

[JD Spydo]

Good points D. I was thinking about asking KP if they can Rit dye a spyderhawk for me like they did my HBDfly.

JD I think David pretty much nailed why the little guys are popular, they make the perfect companion blade, disappear in the pocket, and pack a lot of power. At the lower price point they make a great 'first hawkbill' for people who have yet to experience the potential hawkbills possess.
(the crossbill seems to be gaining popularity for this reason as well)
I also think that once people experience how much cutting power the little guys have, they will be much more open to the idea of a harpy or a spyderhawk.

To answer your other question, I use my hbdfly for cutting zip ties and tape off of cables, opening mail, packages, opening and breaking down cardboard boxes, cutting thread, removing tags from clothes, I use it to peel carrots, as a butter knife, and to put cream cheese on bagels :D Ect.

I can go along with about everything you guys have said. But I do believe that the new little Hawkbills will whet the appetite of many to go to bigger models and hopefully we'll see the Harpy, Spyderhawk go up in sales and maybe see the return of the SUPERHAWK and hopefully in SE this next time around.

I guess I concede to a point that Hawkbill blades aren't for every knife user but I do think there is still a huge untapped market for them once people see how great of a companion blade they make and how easy they perform some jobs that are somewhat difficult for conventional blades. I've yet to get one of the new little HBs but I do have the Dragonfly on my "gotta have" list and I'll be getting one soon.

I still want to hear more about what people are using the big and little Hawkbills for>> and I also want to know how many here still EDC a Hawkbill?

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear JD,

Echoing some of the above, to me, anyway, hawkbills are a somewhat unusual blade shape, at least compared to more mainstream profiles (drop point, clip point, etc.). People with little or no exposure to them often aren't quite sure what to make of them, or what their utility could be. Plus they can look a bit intimidating to those who haven't handled anything beyond a SAK.

As previously pointed out, by making smaller, more affordable, somewhat less intimidating versions available, it allows the ELU to get the opportunity to check out this unusual blade shape at a lower cost. Once they have their hands on one and can experiment with it's usefulness, I would think they're often more inclined to add a larger one to their collections (Harpy, Tasman Salt).

I have at least one hawkbilled blade on my person at all times - either a karambit, a Spyderco Tasman Salt, or most recently, the Spyderco Reverse. I always also have a SAK close by.

Is the hawkbill perfect for every cutting chore? Arguably, no - of course not. No one blade shape will be perfect for all cutting jobs. I do feel like it is a very versatile blade, and to be sure it does certain jobs *far* better than other blade shapes. I'm unlikely to mangle a sandwich or a cheesecake with it (yes, I know you *can* - I just generally don't, as I have better options on-hand) - I prefer more conventional blade shapes for this type of cutting. That said, for most other cutting chores I consider a hawkbill exponentially safer than a straight blade, my being able to hook the hawkbill's tip under the item to be cut and levering the blade a bit, especially if I am cutting next to skin. And don't even get me started on it's use as an SD blade - the Spyderco Reverse is an outstanding choice for self-defense. I'm sorry and glad - sorry to see it discontinued in 2018, glad that I picked one up before that happened.

Good to see you still stirring things on here, JD - I have missed you, old friend.


Hannibal Lecter

[curlyhairedboy]

Hawkbills are definitely intimidating as a blade shape - not just pointy, but aggressively pointy, like a claw.

Thus, I think the smaller blades represent less of a burden to publically carry and use. Pulling out a tasman in a non-working environment may draw some glances. Pulling out a ladyhawk to take off a zip tie on a toy will draw about the same number of glances, but more appreciative ones.

[JD Spydo]

My Dear JD,

Echoing some of the above, to me, anyway, hawkbills are a somewhat unusual blade shape, at least compared to more mainstream profiles (drop point, clip point, etc.). People with little or no exposure to them often aren't quite sure what to make of them, or what their utility could be. Plus they can look a bit intimidating to those who haven't handled anything beyond a SAK.

As previously pointed out, by making smaller, more affordable, somewhat less intimidating versions available, it allows the ELU to get the opportunity to check out this unusual blade shape at a lower cost.

I have at least one hawkbilled blade on my person at all times - either a karambit, a Spyderco Tasman Salt, or most recently, the Spyderco Reverse. I always also have a SAK close by.

Is the hawkbill perfect for every cutting chore? Arguably, no - of course not. No one blade shape will be perfect for all cutting jobs. I do feel like it is a very versatile blade, and to be sure it does certain jobs *far* better than other blade shapes. That said, for most other cutting chores I consider a hawkbill exponentially safer than a straight blade And don't even get me started on it's use as an SD blade - the Spyderco Reverse is an outstanding choice for self-defense. I'm sorry and glad - sorry to see it discontinued in 2018, glad that I picked one up before that happened.

Good to see you still stirring things on here, JD - I have missed you, old friend.

Doctor Lecter!! It's great to see you back at Spyderville again. I wish more of the of the 2004-2007 gang were still coming often.

You make some excellent points and you always did. I do think that the new Little Hawkbills are truly going to be a catalyst to fire up sales for the bigger Hawkbills at some point. I'm 100% sure it will propel the sales of the Harpy and models in it's size range which is why we definitely need to see the return of the G-10 Harpy ( my all time favorite EDC Hawkbill ever). You've really got me craving a REVERSE model now because I've been wanting a fixed blade Hawkbill for quite some time now and I do believe it will pave the way for another one hopefully at some point.

Do you remember "Ceya's Hawk". The good Brother "Ceya" showed us his design of a fixed blade Hawkbill some time back and I was impressed with it. I'm sure you do remember it because he showed it to us at least 3 times that I remember. Haven't heard from the good Brother in quite some time now unfortunately.

I'll probably try to get two REVERSE models because I would like to have one of the custom guys make me a serrated version. Spyderedges and serrations truly take Hawkbill blades to a much higher level IMO.

[spambait11]

...
I have at least one hawkbilled blade on my person at all times - either a karambit, a Spyderco Tasman Salt, or most recently, the Spyderco Reverse...

The Hawkbill Dragonfly Salt should really be re-imagined as a Karambit! FRN finger ring as part of the handle with an Emerson wave opener on the blade, the Hawkbill Dragonfly is the PERFECT size and shape to fit in a hand (especially in reverse grip) as a covert self-defense carry option.

This option would also be easier to carry, lighter, well hidden, cheaper, and completely rustproof compared to the current Spyderco Karambit, and fits in more with the philosophy of a self-defense knife a la Fred Perrin (specifically his La Griffe models), rather than Spyderco's current Karambit which someone could easily argue is meant as a "kill first" knife because of the blade size. (Caveat: I know you can kill with ANY size blade, but perception - in many cases - is more powerful than logic when it comes to the general public.)

I put a big key ring on my Hawkbill Dragonfly to mimic a Karambit, but it is not ideal because the ring moves around while gripping the knife, and I have to manually open the blade first before I can swing the knife into reverse grip. Other than that, I don’t currently find the Hawkbill Dragonfly to be very useful compared to options already out there, including Spyderco's other models - the Tasman Salt being the primary comparison.

[SharpieB]

My wife bought me a Ladybug Salt Hawkbill for Christmas because she thought it was “cute”.

It is actually a very useful little blade and I carry it quite often when wearing dress pants or in a winter coat pocket. It will be in the back pocket of my swim trunks all summer for fishing and kayaking.

Not my only or main EDC for sure, but it will open packaging, gut a small fish, make a bit of tinder, etc.

[JD Spydo]

My wife bought me a Ladybug Salt Hawkbill for Christmas because she thought it was “cute”.

It is actually a very useful little blade and I carry it quite often when wearing dress pants or in a winter coat pocket. It will be in the back pocket of my swim trunks all summer for fishing and kayaking.

Not my only or main EDC for sure, but it will open packaging, gut a small fish, make a bit of tinder, etc.

The 2 newer/smaller Hawkbill models truly are paving the way for more acceptance and much better sales. We are seeing it already. That's why I keep asking everyone what they are mainly using their Hawkbills for. And I keep learning more and more viable uses for them and just how handy they can be for many cutting jobs. I just wish I knew of more uses for plain edged Hawkbills>> I've actually found about 8 times more uses for Spyderedged Hawkbills but yet many first time buyers of Hawkbills opt for the plain edged units :confused: I'll take function over appearance any day of the week.

[SharpieB]

My wife bought me a Ladybug Salt Hawkbill for Christmas because she thought it was “cute”.

It is actually a very useful little blade and I carry it quite often when wearing dress pants or in a winter coat pocket. It will be in the back pocket of my swim trunks all summer for fishing and kayaking.

Not my only or main EDC for sure, but it will open packaging, gut a small fish, make a bit of tinder, etc.

The 2 newer/smaller Hawkbill models truly are paving the way for more acceptance and much better sales. We are seeing it already. That's why I keep asking everyone what they are mainly using their Hawkbills for. And I keep learning more and more viable uses for them and just how handy they can be for many cutting jobs. I just wish I knew of more uses for plain edged Hawkbills>> I've actually found about 8 times more uses for Spyderedged Hawkbills but yet many first time buyers of Hawkbills opt for the plain edged units :confused: I'll take function over appearance any day of the week.

I just ordered a Matriarch which is in the same family-ish as a Hawkbill. I have no idea what the **** I am going to use this one for. :D Yup, I am shallow and always wanted one and my wife also thought the all black with Wave model was cool.

Any use case recommendations beyond violence to humans would be welcomed. :p

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friend,

I just ordered a Matriarch which is in the same family-ish as a Hawkbill. I have no idea what the **** I am going to use this one for. :D Yup, I am shallow and always wanted one and my wife also thought the all black with Wave model was cool.

Any use case recommendations beyond violence to humans would be welcomed. :p

The Matriarch, being essentially a mini-Civilian, was purpose-driven in design as a self-defense blade. Memory serving it was designed specifically for those less adept with a knife as more of a "get off of me" slasher, like the Civilian, though for carry in places where a larger blade wasn't welcome.

The tip really isn't designed for utility cutting and will often break under heavy use, as I understand it. I *love* that little blade - a Waved Matriarch is as good a defensive blade as you can buy IMO. With any luck, one of these days I'll own one again.

-----------
Hannibal

[Evil D]

I thought the Matriarch was designed to be a more user safe Civilian, with a thicker tip that's less likely to break.

[SharpieB]

I thought the Matriarch was designed to be a more user safe Civilian, with a thicker tip that's less likely to break.

Smaller and much cheaper Civilian for sure. Also FRN vs. g10. Smaller tip, but not sure if it is thicker...

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friend,

I thought the Matriarch was designed to be a more user safe Civilian, with a thicker tip that's less likely to break.

There is of course the chance it has been re-engineered in recent years with the thicker tip you're describing - it would make it a much more useful EDC knife if that is the case. That said, I don't know that I would describe it as more "user-safe".

-----------
Hannibal

[JD Spydo]

I thought the Matriarch was designed to be a more user safe Civilian, with a thicker tip that's less likely to break.

Some of what you said is true. It wasn't until they made the Matriarch with VG-10 blade steel until the tips were not nearly as prone to breakage as they were with GIN-1, ATS-55. I've got 2 VG-10 Matriarch folders and I've actually used one of them quite a bit with no problem.

I believe that Gray handled Matriarch which was exclusively sold over in South Africa of all places which was an ATS-55 model. I have owned 2 of them during the years and never used a Matriarch for EDC uses until I got my first one with VG-10.

Personally I've always had a lot more confidence in carrying a Matriarch because the Civilian just feels a tad to big for my hand. I would love a Matriach with a G-10 handle but it's one model that I feel great using with an FRN handle. Actually over the years I've heard of many more Civilians with the tip breaking than I have with the Matriarch ( regardless of which blade steel they had).

I believe that the Lil Matriarch was intended to be able to be used for EDC purposes as well as SD. At least that's what I've had a couple of dealers I've known for years tell me.

[JD Spydo]

My Dear Friend,

I thought the Matriarch was designed to be a more user safe Civilian, with a thicker tip that's less likely to break.

There is of course the chance it has been re-engineered in recent years with the thicker tip you're describing - it would make it a much more useful EDC knife if that is the case. That said, I don't know that I would describe it as more "user-safe".

Doctor Lecter I tend to agree with your assertion saying that the Matriarch isn't necessarily "user safe". Because personally I would not recommend anyone to get a Civilian or Matriarch unless they are very experienced knife users. Because those Reverse S blades could potentially hurt anyone who isn't well experienced and fully confident at using all kinds of cutlery.

In no way would I ever recommend a teenager or any non-knife person to buy either one of those models. I'm glad they aren't easy to obtain like most of the other Spyders are. I'm extremely careful when using a Hawkbill, Reverse S blade or even a Recurve for that matter. They are all great blade designs but you really need to know what you're doing when using them.

Especially with the Karambits that you are high on Dr. Lecter because I know you have had formal training on some of those types of knives. The potential of having a bad accident are always looming>> not to mention how many times I got badly bit when I had that one Cold Steel Arc Angel models ( butterfly knife). Those types of knives aren't toys they are indeed serious tools and extreme caution should be used when handling them. I'm sure you would agree with me on that one Dr. Lecter

[ZrowsN1s]

Here's an old post from sal.
" sal wrote:
The Matriarch was originally produced for So Africa as an exclusive. We are concerned about selling them in the USA so we restrict them (at this time) to Law enforcement professionals (or their friends).

Spyderco doesn't promote either to the general public (only in our dealer catalog).

Neither model is good for general use, (regardless of the opinions of others). The tips are too fine. We are also of the opinon that these models are only effective when sharp (which means no general use).

I've already had one ELU send me an email complaining about the quality of our products because he purchased a Matriarch somewhere, has been using is for general construction use and damaged the tip.

sal "

That being said my best friend EDC's a matriarch and he hasn't had any problems.


....
JD the reason I still prefer PE is the 'way' it cuts compared to SE. And how it cuts as you lose that initial sharpness. SE starts to tear material as it gets dull, PE does as well but not nearly as fast. I like being able to start cutting at the heel and end at the tip, SE cuts tend to stay in the groove of what ever scallop starts cutting first (if you do cut heel to tip you get more of a wide saw cut than a thin razor cut). It's harder to 'shave' material with SE. When cutting things like zip ties a PE allows you to slide more of the blade under the zip tie so you can get more leverage, with SE the scallops get hung up on the tie sometimes (wich means having to cut with the tip intead of the heel).
These are small differences, and the better I get at sharpening SE the less of an issue they are. But you asked so I'm trying my best to articulate the reason. But simply put, they just cut differently.

[Evil D]

By user safe I meant less likely to break. Kinda sucks, I bet they'd be pretty useful EDC knives if they we're a little beefier. Makes me wonder what the issue really is since the hawkbill blades I've used were not too thin, what is it about a reverse S that makes them more fragile? Or is it that these particular models are purposely thinner?