Somewhat odd behavior of steel: 204p and S35VN

[RLDubbya]

I've noticed this behavior with two knives: the Southard Flipper, Blacked out edition; and the Chubby. Primarily isolated to the blades.

I have been, for some time, applying a product called EEZOX - basically, a synthetic lubricant. Well, actually, a synthetic CLP. I'm using it for a few reasons: one, it has some decent tests from one of the desert wars; two, a friend of mine who is an up-and-coming bladesmith and knifesmith uses and likes it; and finally, Jason Brous recommends it, uses it, and gives you a bottle with his highest end knives. Finally, from the shootist world, guys who shoot a lot seem to love it: it's apparently a one-bottle solution to cleaning, lubing, and protecting, and I've heard from a few Kimber owners about how much they love it.

(So I hope that we agree it's not just a weird flash-in-the-pan type thing.)

I also should note that per the manufacturer, the "gun" formula is about the same as the "knife" formula, and it's ok to use the gun formula on knives. The only downside he noted was that the delivery container is not as precise for guns, so it might get sloppy. That said, I'm using the gun formula because only this formula is available in non-aerosol and large quantity.

That's the background. Now, two knives: the Chubby and the Southard Flipper (SF from now on). I had two NIB copies. Straight from the land of the Spyder, the only thing that had been done was they were posed for pics.

I first noticed that when I was wiping down the SF to clean any finger oils, it seemed like the blade would dry up after application for cleaning. In fact, that seems to be what happens: even with an extremely liberal application to the Chubby, where the blade has pools of EEZOX on it, the steel dries in a few minutes. Normally, I see this take overnight, and with the quantity I used on the Chub, I would typically have excess to wipe off. Per the manufacturer, the final coat after a thorough cleaning only with this product should take a few hours to dry.

Other Spydies don't behave this way: for example, the Tighe Stick shows typical absorption behavior: after thorough cleaning with only EEZOX, I applied the final coat, and laid it on thick. After 10 hours, small pools of the liquid stayed as small pools; the general "thick" coat was still thick, and overall the behavior was as the manufacturer documented and what I've seen in normal use.

What could cause this steel to apparently absorb so much?

I hate to say this, but: it's almost like the steel used in the blades in question is "dry". I've never believed that steel could be dry, and I still don't, but I'll be darned if I can offer an alternative explanation.

Any thoughts?

[ZrowsN1s]

Just a stab in the dark, maybe a steel density issue?

[bearfacedkiller]

I would guess that it is due to different surface finishes.

[MacLaren]

I have a Stainless Southard, Millie and Domino all in 204P, and haven't noticed anything unusual. I've occasionally applied oil like Weapon Shield or Slip2000 to them and they acted as any other stainless blade. That being said, I would concur with bearfacedkiller.

[RLDubbya]

I would guess that it is due to different surface finishes.

Darby - let's assume you are correct, and that the two knives in question have somehow been finished differently.

Where does all the liquid go that I'm applying?

[bearfacedkiller]

I have no idea. It was just a guess.

I do not believe that metal absorbs oil. I heard people say that guns absorb oil over the years but I do not believe it. I have had a can of PB Blaster penetrating oil for years and it never got oily on the outside. If steel absorbed oil that can would eventually get oily on the outside. I have a can of WD40 that is probably almost 20 years old as well.

I have also degreased auto parts and it sure seems like every trace of oil is removed. You can make the inside of a transfer case that has had oil in it for 30 years look like it never had oil in it.

I do not have a Chubby but I believe it has a coarse satin finish so my best guess is that it is settling into those "scratches" and drying there. It is really just a guess because I cannot think of what it can be but I do not believe that the steel is "dry". I do not believe that metal is porous and I think that any absorbtion is limited to what can be absorbed by surface irregularities.

I certainly have no expertise in this topic but these are my observations and opinions. Hopefully others who know more will chime in.

[Sharp Guy]

I agree with Darby. It has nothing to do with the steel itself. My DLC coated PM2 behaves the same way as RLW's TiCN coated Southard. I have a couple other coated blades that do the same thing. I don't know if the coating itself absorbs the oil or if due to the microscopically larger surface area allowing the oil to dry/evaporate faster. I suspect it's the latter.

I don't own a Chubby and I don't know what kind of surface finish it has. So I can't really comment on that particular model. I do have lots of other knives with S30V and I haven't noticed any odd behavior with oil compared to any other steels.

[Xplorer]

I would guess that it is due to different surface finishes.

Darby - let's assume you are correct, and that the two knives in question have somehow been finished differently.

Where does all the liquid go that I'm applying?

I used to work for an oil, additive and petro-chemical manufacturer and my primary job was to teach automotive technicians and service advisors about the chemistry related to the fuel and lubrication systems in vehicles. One thing I can clear up for sure is that metal does not absorb oil. I can explain in detail if you're curious, but in brief summary.. if metal absorbed oil it would swell from the increased mass.

Without testing your concern myself I'm not exactly sure what you're seeing but I think Darby is likely to be correct. Surface area plays a huge role in evaporation and oxidation, plus a larger surface area can hold or hide more fluid. The difference in surface area between two parts with different textures can be huge.

[The Deacon]

Any chance the two knives in question could have been warmer than others at the time the EEZOX was applied. I ask because, as others have noted, steel is not porous which means the lubricant dries because it's dissolved in a carrier which evaporates. That means temperature becomes the most obvious possibility to explain differences in drying time.

[demoncase]

I would guess that it is due to different surface finishes.

Darby - let's assume you are correct, and that the two knives in question have somehow been finished differently.

Where does all the liquid go that I'm applying?

I used to work for an oil, additive and petro-chemical manufacturer and my primary job was to teach automotive technicians and service advisors about the chemistry related to the fuel and lubrication systems in vehicles. One thing I can clear up for sure is that metal does not absorb oil. I can explain in detail if you're curious, but in brief summary.. if metal absorbed oil it would swell from the increased mass.

Without testing your concern myself I'm not exactly sure what you're seeing but I think Darby is likely to be correct. Surface area plays a huge role in evaporation and oxidation, plus a larger surface area can hold or hide more fluid. The difference in surface area between two parts with different textures can be huge.

Quoting for truth and expansion:

Steel does not absorb oil. If it did, every car engine on the planet would have it's pistons sieze in the bores within about 100 miles of use.

You might get ADsorbtion- a thin film being evenly coated across the whole surface, and that would absolutely be effected by surface finish, temperature and thickness.....Indeed, an adsorbed coating of oil is what we are after!

Now, most if not all gun oils are in fact a blend of light oils, heavy waxes and solvents. The solvent keeps it liquid, then dries off, depositing the waxes on the material as a form of rust preventative. That heady smell of Hoppes #9 isn't the part that makes Hoppes #9 a great oil- it's the solvent.
Just because the oil has 'dried' doesn't mean it's 'stopped working'...... my wife appreciates this on washing day as much as me, as getting oil stains out of the pocket area of tan trousers has lead to martial strife in the past

Further: Part of the issue with different surface finishes is that it makes it hard to see if something is on the blade-
Also anything other than a mirror finish will increase the surface area of the blade, decreasing drying time for a liquid.

Then there's blade thickness and geometry- a thicker blade will take longer to cool from the pocket, retaining more of our 37oC body heat for longer, providing more energy for the oil to evaporate. Wiping stuff on with our hot fingers provides a measurable amount of temperature increase.

Try a normalised experiment:
Take one of the knives that seems to suck in oil
Take one of the knives that seems to puddle them.
Put them in a stable temperature for 24 hours.
Measure 2 identical amounts of your chosen oil
Apply them to the blades using a swab so your body temperature does not heat them up.
Leave both blades on moved and unhandled.
Observe the drying action over the period of an hour.
Note any differences.

[Johnnie1801]

Don't have one but isn't the Chubby CPM S30V?

Really I don't see a point in putting lube on stainless steel or a DLC coated blade, I only ever use a bit of metal polish to buff them up once in a while. I do oil my carbon steel blades once a month though and they dry up quick after I wipe off any excess

[demoncase]

Don't have one but isn't the Chubby CPM S30V?

Really I don't see a point in putting lube on stainless steel or a DLC coated blade, I only ever use a bit of metal polish to buff them up once in a while. I do oil my carbon steel blades once a month though and they dry up quick after I wipe off any excess

A quick wipe down with oil before putting away for a while or after use can save heartache even with stainless steels.....

Especially those that have been beadblasted or where the user has seemingly very salty/acidic sweat* (or is in a high salt/high humidity environment)

* Like me: I could make a block of margarine go rusty :D

[ChrisinHove]

If it’s an oil and solvent mixture, is it also possible that it’s separated, and you’re comparing oil-with some-solvent to solvent-with-some-oil?

[RLDubbya]

Randomly:

***
I never said this was oil. It is a pure synthetic product. If you still care, you can download the MSDS. I will freely admit that this document carries little meaning to me.

***
Temp is not a factor that I can tell; I have tested at various room temps, same results.

***
I do NOT believe that steel absorbs liquid - but where does this liquid go?

***
I understand that lubes protect after they dry:

From the EEZOX site...

the ASTM B117 - 5% Salt Spray Fog Test is the de facto standard for testing a product's rust inhibiting properties. Outdoor elements, including extremes of temperature and humidity are introduced into the test environment and are carefully monitored. Petroleum Distillate Rust Preventatives receive a "Pass" rating if they inhibit rust for 18 to 24 hours. After 96 to 120 hours of testing, Synthetic EEZOX scored an "Excellent," the highest rating given. Even more remarkable, after 136 hours Synthetic EEZOX scored a "Good" rating, outperforming all distillate-based gun oils and other rust inhibitors available. This testing confirms that EEZOX provides the best rust protection.

***

I really like using it b/c it works in its roles: it cleans well, it lubes well, and I've noticed that if I coat my blades, they tend to be easier to wipe clean after use. I've used it on rusted out stainless tools (like old pliers) and it does a fantastic job. While not stainless, I had a pair of lineman's pliers, probably 60+ years old, all rusty and hard to open / close. A few minutes of work with EEZOX, and they are like new.

***
I don't know if gaps in the finish would catch this amount of liquid.

***

Any chance the two knives in question could have been warmer than others at the time the EEZOX was applied. I ask because, as others have noted, steel is not porous which means the lubricant dries because it's dissolved in a carrier which evaporates. That means temperature becomes the most obvious possibility to explain differences in drying time.

Always a chance if I'm not controlling it. I will have to test this...

[Xplorer]

Randomly:

***
I never said this was oil. It is a pure synthetic product. If you still care, you can download the MSDS.....

Just to clarify, synthetic does not mean it isn't made from petroleum products. It simply means they've made a compound from a synthesis of elements, natural or otherwise. Reading the MSDS does not provide all of the answers but it provided enough clues to offer a reasonable hypothesis. An MSDS does not have to include an ingredients list, it only has to include the ingredients that can be harmful. One of those potentially hazardous ingredients in EEZOX is Trichloroethylene. Trichloroethylene is a solvent for organic materials that works very well for cleaning metal. It's made from Ethylene (a petroleum based hydro-carbon) with chlorine added using a ferric chloride catalyst. This means that there is at least a substantial portion of this product that is intended to evaporate. Temp of the metal and surface area have a huge effect on evaporation.

The solvent aspect of EEZOX explains why it works so well for you in cleaning the old lineman's pliers.

Considering this product is meant to stop rust as well, there has to be some other products included beyond solvents. Rust is oxidation. Everything on earth oxidizes. Oxidation is very much like burning. Both mean "mixing with oxygen". Oxygen has a negative ion charge (-2 in fact). You can only stop things from oxidizing by completely sealing them off from exposure to oxygen. A solid seal like paint or wax or a plastic coating is one option, and when solid solutions aren't applicable you can use a liquid chemistry with a strong enough positive ion charge to block the oxygen temporarily (like what you find in the best penetrating lubricants).

Considering EEZOX's intended use and the fact it is intended to "dry", I have to assume it is a wax or plastic lubricant. The product does include synthetic esters which are likely to be the "sealant". Put simply, solvent cleans the surface and after the solvent evaporates the wax or plastic residual seals the steel from oxygen while it provides "dry" lubrication until it wears away.

Without a doubt, surface area and metal temp will play a huge role in the solvent evaporation. I'm now fairly certain this is what you are seeing. Surface area of one textured part has the potential to be double that of another part of the same size. Heat can have an even greater impact on evaporation, especially when we're talking about a hydro-carbon based solvent.

You can do experiments to get precise answers, and that could be fun IMO. I'm sure that in the end you will conclude that you were seeing varying rates of solvent evaporation due to differences in the physical properties of your test pieces.

Best regards,

Chad

[RLDubbya]

Just to clarify, synthetic does not mean it isn't made from petroleum products. I
Best regards,

Chad

Thank you - I learned something from this thread, which makes my life a bit better. Learning is great!

I'm not sure about the state of your hypothesis, however. Just as EEZOX is prima facie drying with great rapidity, most of the time it does not behave this way. In fact, most of the time I can apply to the blade, and let the blade sit overnight. I come back anywhere from 8-20 hours later, and the puddle is still on the blade.

How does that fit in?

[zhyla]

I would put a same sized drop on either blade at the same time and compare. My guess is — no offense — you won’t see a difference.

[RLDubbya]

I would put a same sized drop on either blade at the same time and compare. My guess is — no offense — you won’t see a difference.

Blade A = Chub in question
Blade B = Southard in question
Blade C = Cheap WE blade
Blade D = Gayle Bradley Folder 1, full liner
Blade E = Manix XL, DLC Black
Blade F = Slysz Bowie
Blade G = Tighe Stick
Blade H = Original Run Dodo

Blade A: drop puddles, stays for 8+ hours
Blade B: see above
Blades C-H: drop apparently converted to Christianity, assumed it's spiritual form, and snuck to ???? (Just a guess)

I didn't measure drops, but I don't think there is a need for that level of precision.

Is that kinda what you had in mind?

[SF Native]

Just st stir the pot a little...

Most of the statements about steel absorbing oil have been based on personal experience of steel and oil. Very few of those experiences have been powdered steel and oil. I’m no expert but it’s possible that powdered steel could have micro pours that do absorb oil. I’m not familiar with the whole process but worth looking into. (Eventually the pours would fill up. And the chubby is fairly fat piece of steel, maybe it could absorb a significant amount.)

A more likely explaination in my mind would be the surface finish and how that effects evaporation. A smooth surface such as the southard would evaporate more slowly. The chubby has lots of microscopic grind lines and thus more surface area to evaporate. Those grind lines would also move the oil to more dry areas via surface tension.

[Xplorer]

..... Just as EEZOX is prima facie drying with great rapidity, most of the time it does not behave this way. In fact, most of the time I can apply to the blade, and let the blade sit overnight. I come back anywhere from 8-20 hours later, and the puddle is still on the blade.

How does that fit in?

This is a good example of why I stated earlier that I would need to do tests myself to offer all the specific details. There are quite a few variables that I would have to isolate. For example, one simple but critical variable is how well you shook the container prior to application. Solvents will rise to the top on the bottle if not properly shaken. Another thing that I didn't reiterate in my last post but is still a big factor, is the ability for surface texture to "hide" fluid. Another important variable is the total volume being applied and whether or not equal amounts are being used for this comparison. If you're going to make a comparison the number if drops used is important. Another factor is the TiCN coating itself on the black Southard. As a point of clarification, in this case (with the obvious exception being the sharpened edge) you're applying EEZOX to TiCN (Titanium Carbonitride which is a multi layer structure of TiC and TiN molecules in a crystaline structure), not CTS204P. When I apply a regular liquid lubricant to a TiCN coating and wipe it down (I also have a black Southard), it looks dry when it is not because the matte surface of the coating spreads the liquid very evenly and diffuses light making it look like a dry uniform surface. Surface tension is another big variable. Higher surface tension will cause fluids to pool while lower surface tension will allow them to disperse. For example, if you wax one half of a car hood the side with the wax will have higher surface tension and water will "bead" or pool, while the water on the other side "sheets" off. There are a lot of factors that can affect surface tension. How many times you've applied this product and to what degree the previous application has worn off is another very important question as well (and might be affecting surface tension among other things).

Although realistically your variables are probably not at the maximum that they could be, consider the large number of potential variables that affect your results:

Fluid mixture
Surface area (exposure to air and ability to hold added volume)
Temperature
Surface tension
Fluid volume
Residual from previous applications
Fluid visually hidden in texture
TiCN matte coating light diffusion

These are just the variables that immediately come to mind, there may be more.

I can realistically envision a scenario in which one knife pools and takes 20 hours to dry and another never pools, appears dry immediately, and actually dries within 1-2 hours. I believe the potential exists for an even greater difference.

If the blades aren't touched after application and they are set in a manner so as not to lean against anything the fluid can only run off or evaporate. If you're not sure and you want to get proof, just set up a properly controlled test. I'll help you with the parameters to ensure you use good scientific method if you want. Just let me know.

Best regards,
Chad