MAP policy change? 35%

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 12806
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:44 pm

As Wsdavies mentioned, it's a daily battle. We stopped doing business with Amazon for a good portion of this year because they made demands for lower prices and we would not meet their demands. We're back on track now, but that's for now. There are a number of big boxes that we stopped dealing with because of their lower price demands. I guess it's part of their standard bargaining tools.

GoldenSpydie, on the MSRP, we tried that and it didn't work. Buck tried it as well many years ago with the same results. MSRP really isn't what it appears to be.....it's a standard bar from which all other discounts are measured. It also gives dealers an opportunity to comment on how much you are saving.

sal

User avatar
RamZar
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am
Location: SoCal, USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:03 pm

Skywalker wrote: On the other hand, I moved to an area with a lot of 3" blade limits in the past year - and nobody does the "little big knife" like Spyderco.
Undoubtedly, Spyderco's product coverage of the various constraints in the legal knife jungle has been exemplary. In my instance, it's also the 3" blade length limit (rather under 3" or my preferred 2.99"). Personally, I'd like to keep it as close to 3" to get maximum handle length. However, one of my most used folders is the fairly new (early 2017) ManBug H-1 Sheepsfoot SpyderEdge with a puny 1.9" blade because it's so light (under an ounce) for the keychain, rust-free, fairly inexpensive and a mini Rescue in an emergency.

Spyderco covers other such legal constraints as non-locking folders, no one-hand opening, under 2.5", under 2", etc.
  • I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 12806
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:06 pm

I would also like to add that "academic speculation" on what "might be" is often naive.

I was having a discussion with an individual that kept saying that this law should be passed and that gun should be outlawed..... to reduce crime ..... picking this minor refinement or that. My response was "why don't we simply just outlaw crime"? oversimplified?

Today's business environment is very complicated. Simple answers are challenging. As Eric said, if we stick to our core business values, solutions are less complicated. Reliable high performance - Constant quality improvement - above all else, be fair - people are human beings and each one is important - Be honest in all things - Take good care of and keep your good crew, etc. I think you get the point.

sal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The goal in life is to be: consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built".

User avatar
RamZar
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am
Location: SoCal, USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:13 pm

For better or for worse, Walmart & Amazon are great anti-inflationary forces. Of course, there are downsides but consumers and businesses crave for lower prices. No simple answers.
  • I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln

gaj999
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:01 pm

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby gaj999 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:16 pm

sal wrote:... There are a number of big boxes that we stopped dealing with because of their lower price demands. I guess it's part of their standard bargaining tools.
Good. Deals with the Devil never work out in the long run. I guess they're taking a page from Walmart's book, even though Walmart pretty much cut it's own throat with that strategy. Vendors who complied had to cut quality over and over again. Now all Walmart is known for is selling low-quality crap. Well, that and putting their suppliers out of business.

User avatar
holeshot
Member
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:40 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby holeshot » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:16 pm

sal wrote:I would also like to add that "academic speculation" on what "might be" is often naive.

I was having a discussion with an individual that kept saying that this law should be passed and that gun should be outlawed..... to reduce crime ..... picking this minor refinement or that. My response was "why don't we simply just outlaw crime"? oversimplified?

Today's business environment is very complicated. Simple answers are challenging. As Eric said, if we stick to our core business values, solutions are less complicated. Reliable high performance - Constant quality improvement - above all else, be fair - people are human beings and each one is important - Be honest in all things - Take good care of and keep your good crew, etc. I think you get the point.

sal
Yes, I do except for the laywers. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The goal in life is to be: consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built".
"No matter where you go, there you are"

User avatar
RamZar
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am
Location: SoCal, USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:24 pm

sal wrote: Today's business environment is very complicated. Simple answers are challenging. As Eric said, if we stick to our core business values, solutions are less complicated. Reliable high performance - Constant quality improvement - above all else, be fair - people are human beings and each one is important - Be honest in all things - Take good care of and keep your good crew, etc. I think you get the point.

sal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The goal in life is to be: consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built".

Very challenging. However, would Spyderco be better off "abandoning" loyalties to some old-time knifemakers, bringing more manufacturing to the U.S., reducing costs, increasing U.S. payroll, etc. I say that in light of the exorbitant prices on the Japanese-made G-10 Spydercos.

Most of the Japanese-made Spydercos with G-10 are overpriced and will be more so after the MAP adjustment. There's nothing fancy about them. Of course, that's assuming the MSRP on them will not increase.

MAP1 is 40% off MSRP and MAP2 is 35% off MSRP.

Code: Select all

MODEL ............... --MSRP- --MAP1- --MAP2-
Stretch2 ............ $349.95 $209.97 $227.47
Chinook4 ............ $339.95 $203.97 $220.97
Opus ................ $334.95 $200.97 $217.72
Karahawk Black ...... $329.95 $197.97 $214.47
Tatanka ............. $329.95 $197.97 $214.47
D'Allara ............ $319.95 $191.97 $207.97
Lil' Temperance3 .... $319.95 $191.97 $207.97
Karahawk ............ $299.95 $179.97 $194.97
Civilian ............ $299.95 $179.97 $194.97
Police4 ............. $289.95 $173.97 $188.47
Ouroboros ........... $289.95 $173.97 $188.47
  • I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln

Eli Chaps
Member
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:56 am

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:37 pm

sal wrote:I would also like to add that "academic speculation" on what "might be" is often naive.

I was having a discussion with an individual that kept saying that this law should be passed and that gun should be outlawed..... to reduce crime ..... picking this minor refinement or that. My response was "why don't we simply just outlaw crime"? oversimplified?

Today's business environment is very complicated. Simple answers are challenging. As Eric said, if we stick to our core business values, solutions are less complicated. Reliable high performance - Constant quality improvement - above all else, be fair - people are human beings and each one is important - Be honest in all things - Take good care of and keep your good crew, etc. I think you get the point.

sal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The goal in life is to be: consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built".
Thanks Sal.

At no point in this discussion was I trying to be a "fan boy" as some said. I was trying talk about business. And these days business is rough. Rougher if you care about your product and your customer and yourself.

I am fan boy though. Not just of the product but because I truly believe that the Spyderco I buy today still has the imprint of a young couple in love and working out of a VW.

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 12806
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:40 pm

Hi Ramzar,

Loyalty is a very important core value in Spyderco's business model, for crew, vendors, customers, etc. We have, for various reasons made adjustments, but not likely if they are doing a good job and the price problems are no fault of their own. (dollar value, government, etc.). We are still working with our very excellent Japanese partners when ALL others have moved to less expensive countries. Partly for quality, partly for giri, partly for the Karma bank, partly because they saved our *** when we came close to going down, etc. But you won't see too many G-10 models coming from Seki in the future, at least in pocket knives. Most will go to FRN, for which they excel, like the new Police 4.

sal

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 12806
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:43 pm

Thanx Eli,

The Spirit of the company is still the same and will be continued by Eric.

sal

User avatar
RamZar
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am
Location: SoCal, USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:52 pm

sal wrote:Hi Ramzar,

Loyalty is a very important core value in Spyderco's business model, for crew, vendors, customers, etc. We have, for various reasons made adjustments, but not likely if they are doing a good job and the price problems are no fault of their own. (dollar value, government, etc.). We are still working with our very excellent Japanese partners when ALL others have moved to less expensive countries. Partly for quality, partly for giri, partly for the Karma bank, partly because they saved our *** when we came close to going down, etc. But you won't see too many G-10 models coming from Seki in the future, at least in pocket knives. Most will go to FRN, for which they excel, like the new Police 4.

sal
Loyalty seems pedestrian these days but to have companies hold to it through thick or thin is admirable specially if those loyalties are endemic to the business core. However, everything has an associated cost over time...

My understanding, great adjustment to both loyalties and consumers to keep as much of the G-10 Spydercos out of Japan? Perhaps move them to the U.S. where such models would be so advantageous?
  • I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln

Eli Chaps
Member
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:56 am

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:12 pm

I recall a few years ago when I was listening to AM radio while driving to work. The host was interviewing a fella who wanted to be a US shoes maker. I have no idea who it was but the thing that caught my attention and kept me from changing the channel was his talk of shoe laces.

By all accounts he had great shoes and all the product testing was extremely positive but he couldn't get shoe laces. The suppliers didn't have time for such a small operation and his only option was buying retail. That obviously wouldn't work for manufacturing and so the product never came to be.

Business is rough these days.

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 12806
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:21 pm

Hi RamZar,

I will admit that loyalty does have limitations, but we've learned that it also has advantages.

We've got a lot of new models for the Golden plant already scheduled.

As a general rule, we don't like to move models from one plant to another for a variety of reasons (eg: pride of mfr for the maker, etc. ensuring top effort and quality).

sal

User avatar
captnvegtble
Member
Posts: 936
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:20 am

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby captnvegtble » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:54 pm

sal wrote: But you won't see too many G-10 models coming from Seki in the future, at least in pocket knives. Most will go to FRN, for which they excel, like the new Police 4.

sal
Wait... what?!?
Sal, did you just say that there will be an FRN Police 4 in the future? Has that been talked about before and I somehow missed it?

User avatar
jtoler_9
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby jtoler_9 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:04 pm

Nvmd.
Last edited by jtoler_9 on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
SpyderEdgeForever
Member
Posts: 6301
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:53 pm
Location: USA

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:09 pm

vegetable, you just read it direct, yes. I felt a near wave of electrical tingle ripple through my entire earthly form when I read that statement, A FRN POLICE 4? WOW!

I do have a question for you all about the MAP:

How will the MAP change effect knives that have not yet been released, like the Spyderco Caribbean? Current retail sites who do not have the actual knives in, are listing the Caribbean with lc200n blade at 152.95, those sorts of prices, from their website stores. If the knife is not released until after January 2018, will the actual prices for the Caribbean suddenly go up, and so the presently listed/estimated 152.95 will vanish and no longer be correct?

User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 9431
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bearfacedkiller » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:39 pm

captnvegtble wrote:
Wait... what?!?
Sal, did you just say that there will be an FRN Police 4 in the future? Has that been talked about before and I somehow missed it?
Yes sir, it has been previously mentioned. There was also mention of the possibility of different steels and different colors. I am hoping this gets included in future Seki sprint runs along with the rest of the Seki lineup myself. :) It is supposed to come in at a lower price point than the g10 version. Woo hoo!!!
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

cangokaw
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:38 pm

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby cangokaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:55 am

wonder if it will have a liner? and what handle texture?

User avatar
jdw
Member
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:10 pm
Location: Red Dirt

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby jdw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:45 am

I have whined some in this thread and questioned the necessity of the price increase. That said, after much thought, I just wanted to weigh in and say that Spyderco is still the best value for the money in the market and their business ethics are superb. For me it will be worth paying a little more to support quality people running a quality business, people who actually care about not only their end users but also their business partners. Kudos to Sal and gang. I am still a Spyderco fan for life.
Do right always. It will give you satisfaction in life.
--Wovoka

User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 9431
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bearfacedkiller » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:06 am

The transparency and openness about this is truly appreciated. I especially appreciate the mention of the interactions with Amazon. Watching them not follow MAP has been the most unsettling thing about MAP for me. I realize they are probably not easy to deal with due to the fact that they follow the "Golden Rule" which is "he who has the gold makes the rules". That is a quote from The Wizard of Id comic strip and sadly can be true and seems to be their business model.

I realize some of my posts have been critical and I think most of us want to get as much as we can with our money but my comments regarding decreasing value are not completely selfish. I think many of us support Spyderco because we support their ethics and business model. While I wish we lived in a world where basing your pricing on ethics was viable and where people purchased things based on supporting the good guys that is sadly not our culture. We are largely driven by price and perceived value. I think most of us want to see Spyderco succeed and I think most of us realize that staying price competitive is part of that. I think some of us see some models becoming less price competitive. I am just gonna sit back and continue to support a brand I like and assume they know what they are doing.

I am a loyal fan as well as a loyal customer and will continue to be both.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 23 guests