MAP policy change? 35%

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Eli Chaps
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:39 pm

Inflation? So prices should only increase commenserute with inflation? We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.

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T_MAC686
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby T_MAC686 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:36 am

Liquid Cobra wrote:I have found the exact opposite of this to be true. The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all. This is true here in most of the stores in Canada and I’ve also found it to be true with the majority of the stores I’ve visited in the U.S. across various states.
wsdavies wrote:Exactly. Where I live there isn't a single local store that sells Spyderco. If I open a B&M I will.
Where I live (Fargo, ND) there were 3 stores that carried Benchmade knives (before Gander Mountain closed) and none of them carried any Spyderco knives. I really wish there were some B&M stores in this area that carried them because handling a knife before purchasing is invaluable.. I could drive up to Grand Forks and visit the Cabelas but the couple times I have been there they don't have much in the display case and they are way over priced. If anyone in this area knows of any places I don't, let me know!

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wsdavies
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby wsdavies » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:35 am

You can't take the average government inflation reported for the past 12 years and apply it to a specific business and hope to have any sort of relevant or accurate comparison. That's the average for the whole country across the board and has zero reflection on specific materials, and geographic areas. It's not an apples to apples comparison. You would have to get accurate data in regard to all the factors associated with producing the Military from specific costs of s30v/g10/liner steel/washers/hardware and then factor in the cost of labor in the Denver area, land costs, local tax changes...etc. Do that and put something together with cited sources and you'll have argument you can stand on. I don't know anything specific in regard to material cost changes or tooling costs, but I do know that the cost of rents and property in the greater Denver area in the last 5 years has skyrocketed, which in turn has likely driven up labor costs and general prices for goods and services in that area.
RamZar wrote:
GoldenSpydie wrote:
RamZar wrote:I remember one of my first top end Spydercos in September 2005 was the Military Model C36GPSE with G-10 Handle and ComboEdge S30V steel for $103.09 shipped. Now, the PlainEdge C36GPE with G-10/S30V is $160.77 and soon to be $174.18!
Yes, and you could get a pound of potatoes for 2 cents in 1913. Not sure what difference it makes, unless you have a time traveling machine (meaning you somehow figured out a flaw in General Relativity, proving you're smarter than Einstein).
What you're not getting is that the Military, for the end consumer, has gone up 69% in 12 years. That's not in line with inflation which says it should be closer to $129. I'm not saying the Military should have a $129 street price but $174 seems quite excessive.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:19 pm

T_MAC686 wrote:
Liquid Cobra wrote:I have found the exact opposite of this to be true. The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all. This is true here in most of the stores in Canada and I’ve also found it to be true with the majority of the stores I’ve visited in the U.S. across various states.
wsdavies wrote:Exactly. Where I live there isn't a single local store that sells Spyderco. If I open a B&M I will.
Where I live (Fargo, ND) there were 3 stores that carried Benchmade knives (before Gander Mountain closed) and none of them carried any Spyderco knives. I really wish there were some B&M stores in this area that carried them because handling a knife before purchasing is invaluable.. I could drive up to Grand Forks and visit the Cabelas but the couple times I have been there they don't have much in the display case and they are way over priced. If anyone in this area knows of any places I don't, let me know!
FWIW Cabelas price matches walmarts online prices. I got over $100 off a DLC Military that way.

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Skywalker
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Skywalker » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:45 pm

Something to mention about posts in this thread comparing Spyderco to Benchmade or ZT or others who have gone to fixed MAP - at least Spyderco is willing to communicate and talk about this.

Benchmade's kicked in right before Thanksgiving in 2013 with no warning. Goodbye, holiday knife shopping. If it wasn't for a couple online vendors that kept their coupon codes up for a week longer, that just would've been it (thanks again Jeff and Roger). And their only comment when pressed, two weeks after the fact, was "Our price levels HAVE NOT changed." And KAI won't even keep a forum presence. Spyderco has been at least above-board and communicative about the whole thing.

This isn't going to keep me from buying Spyderco the next time I'm looking for a knife; it's just going to make those decisions start moving back to parity when compared to BM (I've bought several BMs since 2013, but only one at MAP). On that note - I know Spyderco is a smaller company, but BM's "spa" and sharpening service + re-blades + engraving service are another thing that moves the balance there.

On the other hand, I moved to an area with a lot of 3" blade limits in the past year - and nobody does the "little big knife" like Spyderco.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby timlara » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:27 pm

I am just impressed that by and large, Spyderco has managed to stick to their founding principles and keep quality consistent, if not overall slightly better over the nearly two decades that I have been a customer. (Certainly, technological advancements and CQI have made the newer products superior to the older products if you compare them head-to-head, but as far as doing the best they can with currently available materials and manufacturing capabilities, the benchmark for quality has stayed remarkably consistent in my experience.)

It seems like a rarity in today's economy when a business can remain privately held and do what it thinks is best for itself and its customers, as opposed to taking outside investments and putting growth and volume above all else. It's a tough problem because sometimes the only viable choice is "grow or be crushed", but very often when companies try to grow too fast, they end up failing anyway because they cut so many corners that they lose track of what made them successful in the first place.

Rising prices and stagnant income have definitely slowed my knife purchases these days, but I still find it pretty amazing that after all these years, there are still a bunch of models I want in every new Spyderco catalog.
Tim

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:46 pm

Skywalker wrote:KAI won't even keep a forum presence

I remember a certain Kershaw representative being asked to take a step back from posting on bladeforums (or got himself banned, not sure which) for constantly arguing with customers and belittling anyone who had any criticisms towards Kershaw knives. In fact he held a grudge against me for months for pointing out their commonly used bead blast finish produced atrocious corrosion resistance in otherwise perfectly good steels. I rusted multiple Kershaws within 24 hours of owning them due to that finish, and instead of listening to my feedback he told me I was stupid and dumb.

Played a big role in me completely ignoring the ZT line-up and focusing almost exclusively on Spyderco folders. Felt like fashion over function VS function over fashion to me. To this day I have not even held a ZT folder.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby ThePeacent » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:56 pm

well I think it's already been said at some point in this thread, but has the clone issue been considered?
How will the increase in MAP affect those who wanted to purchase their first PM2, Endura, Tenacious or Military and now see the knockoffs, counterfeits and copies at the same price as ever, while their real spyderco counterparts are now more expensive? I bet they'll be more picking up the cheaper knockoff and never "stepping up" to their first Spydie, budget model or not.
Just a thought

I will of course keep buying from Spyderco as the brands' ethics, transparency and will to evolve and talk to their customers is far more important than any small price increase they deem necessary.

If Byrds are not getting MAP applied (which I think has been said somewhere in this thread too) I guess it's time to pile up and explore on them, as the two I've had have been wonderful knives, price not considered. If I factor in what they cost me, they are a no-brainer, excellent choice for any knife fan!

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby StuntZombie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:40 pm

Meh. I've been picky with all my purchases the past couple years, so this isn't really going to sway me away from buying Spyderco's.
Chris

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:05 pm

MacLaren wrote:We wouldn't be doing Spyderco any good at all if we didn't say what we really feel. Then again, we also have to time to digest news like this. No one likes price increases.
+1
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:25 pm

T_MAC686 wrote: Where I live (Fargo, ND) there were 3 stores that carried Benchmade knives (before Gander Mountain closed) and none of them carried any Spyderco knives.
Possibly reasons for this.
Recently my young coworker bought a gift for his father. BM 551 Grip. I am as a Spyderco guy asked him why? He knows that I am deep into Spyderco and he gave me three reasons:
1. Axis lock is my fan than back lock (considering his age I can understand this. It is fan to flip axis. Which I really do not care)
2. BM are US made. For him and his father this is very important
3. And the last, but not the least. He bought it in B&M store. Everything sold at MSRP and Benchmades are less expensive. I check their website. This is true. Endura is more expensive than Grip. Delica is more expensive than mini and so on.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:43 pm

Eli Chaps wrote:We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
I cannot imagine that anybody, except sole source suppliers can do anything like this. Few years ago our major customer, medical device manufacturer told us:"If you want 5 years contract, you have to give us 5% annual cost savings. Otherwise job will go to another place". So our management and engineers had to work a little harder on process improvements. Sole source have more pull, but they also taking risk.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:57 pm

Eli Chaps wrote:Inflation? So prices should only increase commenserute with inflation? We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
Change suppliers.

Inflation may not be the only measure but it’s something. Actually, gasoline prices now are the same as 2005 but in inflationary terms lower!
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby C99c » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:03 pm

Eli Chaps wrote:Inflation? So prices should only increase commenserute with inflation? We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
Or shut down their operations for annual maintenance and never start back up. Or move one of their 20 year old machines six feet and are never able to produce another part within spec, no matter how much money and time is thrown at the problem. Or have a turnover of experienced staff resulting in them not being able to fulfill contracts. Fire, floods, tornadoes.

Then a manufacturer is left running around bidding the job to companies that know you can't afford not to pay whatever they ask or you risk losing enough sales to shut the doors and send all of your employees home for good. So they pay more, sometimes much more, sometimes for a lesser product. Months and months of barely keeping things going while fighting over specs, delivery and prices.

Between the above stuff and the enormous health insurance increases every year and dozens of other factors most people never think about I'm always amazed that any worthwhile company is able to survive.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:03 pm

Skywalker wrote:KAI won't even keep a forum presence
KAI (Shun/ZT/Kershaw) has an active forum on USN.

Let me say that, in my experience, no large knife company has the excellent, active, knowledgable, calm and very forthright presence like Sal on Spyderco Forum, BladeForums and USN.
Last edited by RamZar on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eli Chaps
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:11 pm

bh49 wrote:
Eli Chaps wrote:We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
I cannot imagine that anybody, except sole source suppliers can do anything like this. Few years ago our major customer, medical device manufacturer told us:"If you want 5 years contract, you have to give us 5% annual cost savings. Otherwise job will go to another place". So our management and engineers had to work a little harder on process improvements. Sole source have more pull, but they also taking risk.
I don't care if you believe it or not. I work in a very competitive industry and while what encounter may be somewhat more extreme than other fields, it still highlights the point that inflation only means so much. That was the point I was trying to make with that comment.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Popsickle » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:12 pm

cooler heads prevailing and all.... I understand as a business with rising costs that unfortunately the customer has to pay a higher price if they expect the same quality.

I'll reserve any other thoughts until I've seen the catalog. I can think of atleast 1 surprise release that I would purchase if it happens.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:58 pm

RamZar wrote:
Eli Chaps wrote:Inflation? So prices should only increase commenserute with inflation? We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
Change suppliers.

Inflation may not be the only measure but it’s something. Actually, gasoline prices now are the same as 2005 but in inflationary terms lower!
Ok. I need let's say magnesium. I need it in 6N purity. That is 99.9999% pure, or no more than 10ppm of anything in there other than magnesium. I also need gases to be no more than 5ppm. I need a CoA verifying all of it and I will track your SPC. I also will not accept shipment any earlier than say 30 days from request.

Now, there might be a few suppliers out there and we always do our best to avoid sole source, but any little hiccup in raw supply, politics, competitor makes a deal, what have you and you can get hit with a huge increase. Not to mention government regulation on chemicals for refining, waste disposal, etc. Oh, and China and India don't much care about those things and will happily not sell to Western companies.

We haggle but often are stuck short term and long term they usually get us for more than 2-3%.

I also work in powder metallurgy. Granted, we're talking ultra high purity but there's a lot of labor in PM. I don't know the purity levels we're talking for tool steel but I'd guess 4N. Maybe 3N, but either way that takes some care and that can raise costs.

I'd also bet that not a whole of these more unique steels get sold to the knife industry so they likely pay a premium. And if the big boys need more and more, that premium will increase.

G10 is probably pretty inexpensive to produce but there is a huge demand for it in a broad range of industries. So, if you aren't ordering comparative high volumes, well your cost will go up.

And then there's all the other stuff already mentioned like salaries, benefits, international competition, massively oppressive retailers, etc, etc, etc.

Competing in a global market today, especially with what is basically a commodity, is extremely challenging.

And there's...Oh Spyderco, stop the fakes! Money. Oh Spyderco, give me this knife in recycled lunar module steel. Money. Oh Spyderco, your washers suck. Money. And on and on and on.

I'm not arguing for or against any of this. I'm just saying that I deal with the global economic and business landscape every day and I think people by and large are largely ignorant of where we are these days.

I will not spend $30 or whatever dollars on a t-shirt to advertise for Spyderco. I will spend $70 on a Delica for my daughter that I know will get used and treasured.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:40 pm

Eli Chaps wrote:
bh49 wrote:
Eli Chaps wrote:We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
I cannot imagine that anybody, except sole source suppliers can do anything like this.
I don't care if you believe it or not.
O, Dear. I am sorry, if you took offence. I wasn't questioning your honesty, I was just wondering because your experience is quite different than mine. I am sorry, if I offended you. I didn't have such intention.
Also in today world I cannot imagine non-competitive industry.
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Eli Chaps
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:03 pm

bh49 wrote:
Eli Chaps wrote:
bh49 wrote:
Eli Chaps wrote:We've had suppliers drop 50% increases on us overnight.
I cannot imagine that anybody, except sole source suppliers can do anything like this.
I don't care if you believe it or not.
O, Dear. I am sorry, if you took offence. I wasn't questioning your honesty, I was just wondering because your experience is quite different than mine. I am sorry, if I offended you. I didn't have such intention.
Also in today world I cannot imagine non-competitive industry.
No my friend, I should apologize. My frustrations got the better of me. It is a good discussion.


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