MAP policy change? 35%

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cabfrank
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby cabfrank » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:59 am

Aside from everything else, and only in response to posts above, I do not at all believe that knife dealers make $5 on Spydercos, and $10 on other knives. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is no chance of me believing that. I can't imagine there would be a dealer in business on these margins.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby jtoler_9 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:00 am

mrtodd777 wrote: Go buy a gas station special if an extra $10 bucks is going to kill ya.
I think you may be missing a few choices out there in between where we are at and the gas station specials. But I give you points for the clever insult.

I’m trying to read the room here and the feeling I’m getting from these types of comments is that the stance is, “if a price increase bothers you, don’t let the door hit you on the way out!” I’m invisioning the airlines with that type of sentiment and underlying disdain for ones customers. Loyal customers I might add that spend many hours a day with this brand. If they are like me, they have spent thousands with this company. If not more.

I’m confident all voices participating in this thread are fans of this brand. So I’m not sure why certain points of view seem to be less valid, ignorant to the ways of business, insulted and talked down to?

I’m doing a horrible job trying to stay out of this discussion, since I seem to always be on my own side here. I’ll do my level best to make this my last post on the subject.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby The Mastiff » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:23 am

Many Spyderco forumites are passionate about this company and the knives. It almost seems like some are taking it personally. I can't get upset over this to be honest. The management team seems to not do decisions on a whim and has reasons for their business decisions. I accept that. It doesn't seem all that outlandish to me so I don't see me changing my buying habits. I'm already only buying the ones I expect to use and can afford and don't already have one like it.

Again this year my health insurance premium went up in addition to higher co pays and higher meds co pay cost per fill. Substantially more than Spydercos per knife increase. That annoys me. My income hasn't come close to keeping up with cost of living much less the huge increases in health care over the last 3-4 years and it certainly won't anytime soon. Still, getting upset about it helps me not at all.

Things definitely could be worse. Look at Venezuela. People are killing what pets are still around to eat. North Korea is in another famine. We have plenty . First world problems eh?

Joe

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Bile Bob » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:04 am

RamZar wrote:Good values will be found in dealer exclusives (they're allowed to discount them at any time) and discontinued Spyderco knives which covers your first paragraph.

Know that. The point is that if you're patient good deals will still be around. When the Hungarian came out really wanted one but was patient and waited until it went discontinued. Got one for wayyy below what it originally sold for.
RamZar wrote:Para3 S90V/CF Sprint has MSRP of $319.95 and if it arrives at dealers before the end of the year the MAP will be $191.97 (40% off MSRP) and then after that it'll be $207.97 (35% off MSRP) not $223.96. I want one before year end. It'll be my only Para3.
My mistake. I was thinking 30% off MSRP. $207.97 is better but the Cruwear Para3 sold for $125.97 shipped, is a s90v and CF handle worth an additional $82?

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby xceptnl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:08 am

The Mastiff wrote:Many Spyderco forumites are passionate about this company and the knives. It almost seems like some are taking it personally. I can't get upset over this to be honest. The management team seems to not do decisions on a whim and has reasons for their business decisions. I accept that. It doesn't seem all that outlandish to me so I don't see me changing my buying habits. I'm already only buying the ones I expect to use and can afford and don't already have one like it.

Again this year my health insurance premium went up in addition to higher co pays and higher meds co pay cost per fill. Substantially more than Spydercos per knife increase. That annoys me. My income hasn't come close to keeping up with cost of living much less the huge increases in health care over the last 3-4 years and it certainly won't anytime soon. Still, getting upset about it helps me not at all.

Things definitely could be worse. Look at Venezuela. People are killing what pets are still around to eat. North Korea is in another famine. We have plenty . First world problems eh?

Joe
Well said Joe. And yes, first world problems indeed.
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sal wrote: .... even today, we design a knife from the edge out!
*Landon*

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby anagarika » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:58 am

I think we as buyer, Sal & a dealer each has shared their views and feeling on the issue. It’s as transparent as it can be (contract between Spyderco and the dealers are supposedly confidential). I appreciate the civilized discussion and openness.

I hope, like many, to see a better situation and we all contribute in our own way, hopefully for the better

PS: Joe: good one!
Chris :spyder:

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:14 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:You can say that again, Eli. Sal has consistently shown true commitment and superb character towards the Spyderco customer. That fact alone is enough to keep me a customer, even without all the amazing designs, which ofcourse flow from the same commitment to providing excellent cutting tools.
Couldn't agree more.

I might raise a stink about my weird preferences not being met from time to time, but make no mistake, I am a customer for life.

Even when I sold off 100+ Spydercos in a year and only kept 4 or 5, EDCing the same knife years at a time, I'd check in from time to time to see what new models and new steels were happening. Something always draws me back in. Street Bowie re-release, the Manix 2 XL being released, Ronin 2, LC200N, etc.

I do have to admit, I've probably purchased about 10 $99 or cheaper Spydercos for every $100+ model in the past year. There's a lot of fantastic knives under $100 these days that a knife really has to grab me for me to want to spend more.

One thing I love about a lot of their fixed blades (Street Beat FRN, Street Bowie, Ronin 2, Reverse, Enuff etc) is their under $100 price. I would love to see some of the classic Spydercos like the Military and Police offered in more basic materials (FRN/CTSBD1) with under $100 price tags (If it is possible). I would buy them.

I bought a Szabo folder in 2016 for about $170. It was on sale and I always loved the design, and figured it'd be discontinued soon (How right I was). Also replaced my CPMD2 Military that was stolen in 2014 with a CTS204P version. 2017 I think my only one was a Yojimbo 2 that I ended up trading for a back-up Szabo after having second thoughts about the comp lock with no return spring.

No idea what my next $100+ Spyderco will be, nothing on the radar at the moment.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby gaj999 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:23 am

hitormiss wrote:This is just what I needed to stop senselessly buying more Spyderco knives. Production costs do not go up that much every year.
True. But health insurance sure does. Mine has gone from $200/mo to $700/mo in four years for just me, and that's with with the highest possible deductible. So much for affordable care. That, among other government atrocities like stupid high corporate tax rates and idiotic over-regulation, punishes the heck out of any company that doesn't lay off Americans and move production overseas ... the fewer Americans you employ and the less you pay them, the more profit you make. Blaming Spyderco for not doing that is short-sighted, but easy to do when you see knife prices rising so far out of reach that even the value models take some consideration of the budget. Frustrating.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Canazes9 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:07 am

cabfrank wrote:Aside from everything else, and only in response to posts above, I do not at all believe that knife dealers make $5 on Spydercos, and $10 on other knives. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is no chance of me believing that. I can't imagine there would be a dealer in business on these margins.

What a train wreck this thread is.

The dealer isn't saying he's paying $5 less for the knife than what he's selling if for. He's saying that after all his costs it's only $5 profit. Profit is the reason businesses are in business. 10% net profit is the standard for successful business models, though certainly there are some discount volume brands that get by with less. A small business owner will find it difficult to stay in business with much less. The changes to MAP still don't have these businesses up to 10% net profit on most Spydercos even after the changes.

Quality costs money. Money to buy quality materials. Money to purchase and maintain high quality tooling. Money to pay skilled craftsmen and to afford them the time to do their jobs correctly. I don't work for free and I don't expect anyone else to. If someone does good work for me I want that person to leave that transaction feeling like they were well compensated. That well compensated feeling is what keeps people coming back instead of not answering the phone when it rings.

The choices and quality of knives available in the market today is staggering. Spyderco has been a front runner for a long time, their innovation in variety of styles, sizes, pivot mechanisms, lock mechanisms and steels is literally heads and shoulders over any other company in the market place. They continuously cater to the specialty consumer producing a staggering array of sprint runs.

Personally I'm glad the Spyderco still caters to the specialty consumer instead of selling out to the Amazon / Wal-Mart model. These truly are the "gold old days" and as usually the case, few of the consumers enjoying the "good old days" recognize how good they are until they're gone.

David

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:54 am

I am sorry, but with all due respect I disagree with the most of what you said.
wsdavies wrote:So you think dealers should be happy to carry and promote the brand to make $5 on a $100? Many dealers don't bother selling Spyderco as there is not enough meat on the bone.
This is not greed, it's economic reality. As I was saying, I sell Spyderco because I love the brand and they are what got me into knives. From a purely business perspective it's not very enticing especially since there are so many fakes out there that undercut the legit seller. I didn't ask for a MAP increase of 5% but I sure am glad they are doing it as it will allow me to keep selling the knives I love. I really respect the fact that Spyderco cares enough to take care of dealers like us that have been loyally carrying water for them for years. As I said before this is a company that still has a soul. Here's a story for you. When I 1st started selling knives I got a knock on the door one Sunday night...I got served as part of a lawsuit against a knife company (not Spyderco) Some joker cut himself using the knife I sold him as a pry-bar and was suing me, the knife designer, distributors and knife company. I just had started and didn't have liability insurance. I called the knife company and they wouldn't even answer me back to give me any advice. I couldn't even get any lawyers to call me back. So I persisted and called my sales rep and said this isn't right, someone from the company needs to call me. So finally the lawyer from their insurance company contacted me and put me in touch with an attorney. Cost me $8,000 to get written off the case. $8,000 on a knife I made ten bucks on. I couldn't believe a company I worked my butt off selling and promoting their brand wouldn't even call me back. So, having dealt with many knife companies since then I can tell you that Spyderco are decent people and worth supporting as are many of us small dealers who work very hard to take care of people.
If we are talking about business, not a hobby than it would be better for dealers dealers not to sell anything, if like you said "not enough meat on the bone" Business is business. If you are selling Spyderco because of love, this is hobby.
It is great to see that Spyderco cares about their dealers. But I do not see any good reason, why this should come at customers expense.
Also, I am sorry about your $8000 trouble, but not buying liability insurance you took a risk. So you cannot really complain.
And the last thing. It was mentioned that dealers work hard. I am sure that they are, but don't everybody work hard?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
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My top choices Natives5, Calys, C83 Persian,Hungarian, Memory

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bh49 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:11 am

xceptnl wrote:
The Mastiff wrote:Many Spyderco forumites are passionate about this company and the knives. It almost seems like some are taking it personally. I can't get upset over this to be honest. The management team seems to not do decisions on a whim and has reasons for their business decisions. I accept that. It doesn't seem all that outlandish to me so I don't see me changing my buying habits. I'm already only buying the ones I expect to use and can afford and don't already have one like it.

Again this year my health insurance premium went up in addition to higher co pays and higher meds co pay cost per fill. Substantially more than Spydercos per knife increase. That annoys me. My income hasn't come close to keeping up with cost of living much less the huge increases in health care over the last 3-4 years and it certainly won't anytime soon. Still, getting upset about it helps me not at all.

Things definitely could be worse. Look at Venezuela. People are killing what pets are still around to eat. North Korea is in another famine. We have plenty . First world problems eh?

Joe
Well said Joe. And yes, first world problems indeed.
+1
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
George Orwell
My top choices Natives5, Calys, C83 Persian,Hungarian, Memory

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby wrdwrght » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:27 am

I cringe at the resentments on display in this thread. What an abuse of our hosts.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby bearfacedkiller » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:40 am

mrtodd777 wrote:Go buy a gas station special if an extra $10 bucks is going to kill ya.
Besides being rude this is completely ignoring the actual issue here. It isn't that any of us cannot afford an extra $10-20. It is that at some point other options (besides a gas station knife that is likely to cut your finger off :rolleyes: ) start to represent a better value. The knife market has become very competitive. I like Spyderco and I want to support a good company and good dealers but if we are really fans of Spyderco and really want them to succeed then we must also want them to stay price competitive. We live in a culture where perceived value is the driving force in sales. Us as loyal fans alone will not keep Spyderco afloat.

I am seeing all sorts of different points of view in this thread. On one end is the fanboy who will pay anything. On the other end there is the pure capitalist who is offended by MAP and is now boycotting Spyderco. In between are plenty of others. Some who don't see this move as maintaining a competitive edge and other who feel we should support Spyderco out of ethical responsibility because they are the good guy. Lots of interesting discussion and the discussion seems just as diverse as the forum members here are.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Canazes9 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:46 am

bh49 wrote:I am sorry, but with all due respect I disagree with the most of what you said.

If we are talking about business, not a hobby than it would be better for dealers dealers not to sell anything, if like you said "not enough meat on the bone" Business is business. If you are selling Spyderco because of love, this is hobby.
It is great to see that Spyderco cares about their dealers. But I do not see any good reason, why this should come at customers expense.
Also, I am sorry about your $8000 trouble, but not buying liability insurance you took a risk. So you cannot really complain.
And the last thing. It was mentioned that dealers work hard. I am sure that they are, but don't everybody work hard?
I should really just walk away from this thread but I can't help myself.

Years ago I worked for a specialty monomer manufacturer. The monomers we manufactured produced special properties (increased strength, UV resistance, etc) in spray paints. A well known spray paint manufacturer was using our monomers in their spray paints and they truly were the best spray paints available in the market place.

The spray paint got to be widely known and recognized and Wal-Mart offered them a huge contract to sell spray paints in their stores. The paint manufacturer expanded production and sold high volumes at low margins at Wal-Mart, we sold more monomer to the paint manufacturer. Then Wal-Mart came back and demanded the paint manufacturer cut their prices by 15% or lose their shelf space. The paint manufacturer would have been selling a loss at those prices.

They came back to their suppliers looking for discounts. We gave them some - we were selling a higher volume and didn't want to lose their business. Their other suppliers did the same. They were able to reduce their prices but not the 15% Wal-Mart wanted. Wal-Mart accepted the new lower price for the still high quality paint - for 2 years. Then Wal- Mart came in and demanded another 15% price cut.

We coulf not cut the prices for our specialty monomers any lower, nor could the paint manufacturer's other suppliers. The Wal-Mart business had become such a large part of the paint manufacturer's business they were forced to change their product formulation - if they didn't provide Wal-mart the price cuts they would lose all of their business their. They bought commodity styrene (instead of our monomers), cheaper pigments, spray nozzles, etc. Their new product still had their label on it, but their paint was now the same discount garbage that other manufacturers were selling - and Wal-Mart proudly advertised high quality XXXXXX spray paint "for the same price as most places charge for the discount brands".

The paint manufacturer tried to fight back, they produced a new "premium" grade paint that was essentially their old formulation and they sold it mainly in hardware stores and specialty hobby shops, but it was too late the damage to their reputation was done. Years later I was in a hardware store, looking to buy some spray paint for some patio furniture. I was looking for XXXXXX brand at it wasn't on the shelf. I asked one of the clerk's if they had any and his response was "We don't sell that here anymore" when I asked why he said they had received to many customer complaints about poor quality. The complete destruction of the brand only took about 6 years once they entered their agreement with Wal-Mart.



That same destruction of the brand is what Spyderco is attemping to fight off. They are not entering into deals with the discount sellers. The introduction of MAP pricing was the 1st step, changing MAP from 40% to 35% is the second step. I expect there ill eventually need to be a third step to fully right the ship. If Spyderco loses this battle, then within 5-6years (probably less) you can expect to lose everything you love about Spyderco's - good bye to quality, innovation, steel selection, model diversity, sprint runs, etc. Then people will say "Spyderco's suck now, Sal and Eric sold out!"

Sorry you don't like the price increases - what you're really seeing is Spyderco attempting to "right the ship" for their dealer networks that have stood by them as Spyderco's popularity took off and the big discount chains have made their attempts at corrupting the brand.

David

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby gaj999 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:50 am

wrdwrght wrote:I cringe at the resentments on display in this thread. What an abuse of our hosts.
True. Lots of frustration being vented, not always at the party to blame. One of my frustrations is seeing Spyderco go the way of Benchmade. I haven't bought a Benchmade since they started their MAP program. All the fun of bargain hunting went away, and I'm sure as heck not buying knives because I need them. Another is the price drifting too high for me to justify because my income is flat and my expenses are way up. Watching our government drive small businesses under and large businesses overseas is another. Etc, etc, etc. Easy to jump on a convenient target when the opportunity exists. Sorry if I came across too harshly, I'm not pissed at Spyderco, I'm just pissed in general. :)

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Coupant » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:54 am

Excuse my ignorance,can someone tell me what MAP stands for?
Thank you

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sovereign » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:00 pm

Minimum advertised price.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby SF Native » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:46 pm

gaj999 wrote:
wrdwrght wrote:I cringe at the resentments on display in this thread. What an abuse of our hosts.
True. Lots of frustration being vented, not always at the party to blame. One of my frustrations is seeing Spyderco go the way of Benchmade. I haven't bought a Benchmade since they started their MAP program. All the fun of bargain hunting went away, and I'm sure as heck not buying knives because I need them. Another is the price drifting too high for me to justify because my income is flat and my expenses are way up. Watching our government drive small businesses under and large businesses overseas is another. Etc, etc, etc. Easy to jump on a convenient target when the opportunity exists. Sorry if I came across too harshly, I'm not pissed at Spyderco, I'm just pissed in general. :)
Who says that’s the governments fault? That’s just globalization. It’s been happening for decades and no one has found a way to stop it. Current administration won’t fair any better. That whole big deal about keeping carrier in USA, they got quiet and are moving anyway.

The Walmart story sounds a lot like Gerber. The old timers tell of when Gerber has great products. I only know them as “not as preferred as a spyderco”. Not sure that’s what happened. Maybe company sold.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby sal » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:21 pm

At one time, Buck and Gerber were the premiere knife companies in America.

Buck was fortunate to have CJ who took over the family business and is still doing a great job with the American company and maintaining good quality. Now CJ's kids are involved in the company which is a good thing.

Pete's kids didn't want the company so Pete sold it to Fiskars in Finland. They used the name to good advantage and significantly increased the size, but at the expense of quality.

sal

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby SF Native » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:28 pm

sal wrote:At one time, Buck and Gerber were the premiere knife companies in America.

Buck was fortunate to have CJ who took over the family business and is still doing a great job with the American company and maintaining good quality. Now CJ's kids are involved in the company which is a good thing.

Pete's kids didn't want the company so Pete sold it to Fiskars in Finland. They used the name to good advantage and significantly increased the size, but at the expense of quality.

sal
Well, we should all be thankful for Eric in that case. He is pretty talented too.


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