MAP policy change? 35%

[FCM415]

About the "If the dealers disappear, Spyderco is toast" argument...

What happens if customers disappear? Will they be vilified like Amazon and Knifeworks.com and other discounters were? LOL.

Die hards like us will absorb the price hike but the more casual customers... First, they'll stick to Byrds and China Spydercos because the good stuff are too expensive for a casual. If overall stock moves less, and China models move more... Will it be ok? Or will Spyderco have to up their own margins for that AND figure out to lower costs even more (think more China and less quality like you guys are pointing out if the dealers disappear)....

It Goes...Both... Ways....

Most mom and pop shops are already gone. Look around you. Malls are ALREADY closed... not CLOSING. CLOSED. What are we saving here really? BladeHQ buildings? Gun stores that carry some SPydies? There not a single knife store within 1000 miles of me.

LOL at people thinking Mom and pop brick and mortar stores shall rise from this hike.

[Canazes9]

So the big sicount chains are wanting to sell Spyderco's because they aren't selling and are priced too high?

Independant Knife dealership doe not equal brick and mortar store - many of these places don't even have a store front, just an internet site. LOL at your thinking there will be anything Spyderco makes that you want to buy in 5years if they cave to the big discount chains.

David

[wsdavies]

You know I was just taking time out of my busy day to give a different perspective on things and defend a great company like Spyderco. I am pretty well versed in business and the knife business in particular, but think what you want.

About the "If the dealers disappear, Spyderco is toast" argument...

What happens if customers disappear? Will they be vilified like Amazon and Knifeworks.com and other discounters were? LOL.

Die hards like us will absorb the price hike but the more casual customers... First, they'll stick to Byrds and China Spydercos because the good stuff are too expensive for a casual. If overall stock moves less, and China models move more... Will it be ok? Or will Spyderco have to up their own margins for that AND figure out to lower costs even more (think more China and less quality like you guys are pointing out if the dealers disappear)....

It Goes...Both... Ways....

Most mom and pop shops are already gone. Look around you. Malls are ALREADY closed... not CLOSING. CLOSED. What are we saving here really? BladeHQ buildings? Gun stores that carry some SPydies? There not a single knife store within 1000 miles of me.

LOL at people thinking Mom and pop brick and mortar stores shall rise from this hike.

[FCM415]

You know I was just taking time out of my busy day to give a different perspective on things and defend a great company like Spyderco. I am pretty well versed in business and the knife business in particular, but think what you want.

About the "If the dealers disappear, Spyderco is toast" argument...

What happens if customers disappear? Will they be vilified like Amazon and Knifeworks.com and other discounters were? LOL.

Die hards like us will absorb the price hike but the more casual customers... First, they'll stick to Byrds and China Spydercos because the good stuff are too expensive for a casual. If overall stock moves less, and China models move more... Will it be ok? Or will Spyderco have to up their own margins for that AND figure out to lower costs even more (think more China and less quality like you guys are pointing out if the dealers disappear)....

It Goes...Both... Ways....

Most mom and pop shops are already gone. Look around you. Malls are ALREADY closed... not CLOSING. CLOSED. What are we saving here really? BladeHQ buildings? Gun stores that carry some SPydies? There not a single knife store within 1000 miles of me.

LOL at people thinking Mom and pop brick and mortar stores shall rise from this hike.

Yes, I figured you had ties to a knife business. I just wanted to offer my perspective as a customer, but think what you want. You are free to think and assume that people upset are bottom of the barrel folk who are part of the reason why the whole world is F'd up. Like some are free to complain about the price hike, dealers were free to complain and got what they want. Squeeze a couple more bucks to save the industry. I'll make sure to thank you when more knife stores open in my area.

My first post you responded to warranted no defense imo as it wasn't criticizing anything... I just predicted the effect judging from what I've read... but this is personal to you. As I see it, you were defending dealers aka the knife business you are well versed at in particular.

[FCM415]

So the big sicount chains are wanting to sell Spyderco's because they aren't selling and are priced too high?

Independant Knife dealership doe not equal brick and mortar store - many of these places don't even have a store front, just an internet site. LOL at your thinking there will be anything Spyderco makes that you want to buy in 5years if they cave to the big discount chains.

David

What? LOL

I dont understand your post but heres a response anyway...

MAP was never directly aimed at big box stores. In fact, only Amazon is a real threat to that and even they were never the biggest discounters before MAP. MAP was instituted because of Independent Knife Dealerships who had an online presence were competing on who priced the lowest. Got to a point where only three or so dealers had the best price to those in the know. It's designed to even the playing field throughout the distr. chain... But physical stores are able to discount and online stores CANNOT except on clearance items. It doesn't help people who don't have any dealers within 1000 miles of where they live.

Anyways.... Spyderco has been consistent in quality when they were pro capitalism, and now when they want to cater to complaining dealers (customers arent the only ones who complain). So yes in five years, I expected Spyderco to be fine but if customers are turned away by the price, maybe it hurts them in the long run when only the Chinese models sell well.

[Canazes9]

So the big sicount chains are wanting to sell Spyderco's because they aren't selling and are priced too high?

Independant Knife dealership doe not equal brick and mortar store - many of these places don't even have a store front, just an internet site. LOL at your thinking there will be anything Spyderco makes that you want to buy in 5years if they cave to the big discount chains.

David

What? LOL

I dont understand your post ....

Clearly.

Have a pleasant evening.

Regards,

David

[mastiff]

The problem is everyone keeps saying that Spyderco is doing this because they have to pay for the CQI, new facility space, new machinery, etc. Is there a reading comprehension problem on this thread? I'm dead serious. SPYDERCO GETS NO EXTRA MONEY, PER SAL. NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. Only the dealers are getting more!

For more than 35 years dealers haven't been able to make a single solitary dime on Spyderco products. It has been a complete losing proposition. They've only done it this long because they have good hearts! The price increases are actually to help us loyal customers! Without this MAP increase we customers would suffer horribly! It's not their fault that they didn't pick a business venture with higher profit margins! Their lack of proper research into the ins and outs of cutlery resale is our fault and we should have to make up for that! I'm even thinking of enlisting Sally Struthers and running an ad campaign to help them out myself!

You should have to pay extra to dealers for your loyalty to Spyderco! MAP needs to go up 5% or more every year or two, it's for your own good! Just remember, the dealers are doing it for the children! This will also combat drunk driving, help end childhood obesity, save the whales, stop global warming, and help build safe spaces with crayons, coloring books, and puppies for triggered college students! If your not happy about paying even more to the people that don't manufacture or produce anything and won't be doing or giving you anything more than they did the last two years, well then you're just a very evil person! You meanies!

Sometimes I can get carried away, but when someone keeps shoveling it at me and telling me that it's good for me I tend to kick a couple pieces back at them. Sorry, it was mostly in good fun

[phaust]

Mastiff, I believe the references to CQI and other things were mostly/all in regard to the increase in Military cost over the years mentioned a few pages back, which was to do with both MAP and MSRP--with MSRP having the connection to those things.

The thread has gone in so many directions I could be wrong, however.

[Eli Chaps]

The problem is everyone keeps saying that Spyderco is doing this because they have to pay for the CQI, new facility space, new machinery, etc. Is there a reading comprehension problem on this thread? I'm dead serious. SPYDERCO GETS NO EXTRA MONEY, PER SAL. NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. Only the dealers are getting more!

For more than 35 years dealers haven't been able to make a single solitary dime on Spyderco products. It has been a complete losing proposition. They've only done it this long because they have good hearts! The price increases are actually to help us loyal customers! Without this MAP increase we customers would suffer horribly! It's not their fault that they didn't pick a business venture with higher profit margins! Their lack of proper research into the ins and outs of cutlery resale is our fault and we should have to make up for that! I'm even thinking of enlisting Sally Struthers and running an ad campaign to help them out myself!

You should have to pay extra to dealers for your loyalty to Spyderco! MAP needs to go up 5% or more every year or two, it's for your own good! Just remember, the dealers are doing it for the children! This will also combat drunk driving, help end childhood obesity, save the whales, stop global warming, and help build safe spaces with crayons, coloring books, and puppies for triggered college students! If your not happy about paying even more to the people that don't manufacture or produce anything and won't be doing or giving you anything more than they did the last two years, well then you're just a very evil person! You meanies!

Sometimes I can get carried away, but when someone keeps shoveling it at me and telling me that it's good for me I tend to kick a couple pieces back at them. Sorry, it was mostly in good fun

Wow. Just wow.

[Ippon]

People will vote with their wallets, as far as I understand it that's how it works. If it's the right knife at the right price, people will buy it. All I can say is that my "vote" will go to quality products that I both like, and are offered at a price I'm willing to pay regardless of whatever MAP or MSRP or whatever acronym is going on. that probably means made in the USA (probably means another PM2... :p ) but I enjoy the few Taiwan and Seki spydercos that I own as well.

As an american I like to do what I can to support our national economy, the same way that I would prefer to buy products made in my own county or city to support local business. That being said, the price has to remain reasonable and fair. When I buy things I don't look for the best price, I look for the best value in the price range that I can afford. If I have 20 dollars to spend on a folding knife the best bang for my buck probably comes out of China. But if I have 120 dollars I have yet to find anything that for me even comes close to rivaling the PM2's bang for your buck. The Manix and the Native come close but they are Spydercos as well.

I have been reading both this thread and the one on blade forums since they started. It took me a long time to post because honestly I don't feel passionately either way about MAP. The idea of price fixing doesn't exactly leave me tickled pink. Neither does a price increase. But I'm not furious about it. Compared to many other businesses Sal and crew do a great job at being open with us about what's happening with the company, and I don't think that we as the customer are being taken advantage of, I may be wrong but that is my inclination.

Sal and Crew,
Like I said in my post you know where my vote lies. I love the selection in your brand of innovative, high quality designs from reputable factories. If you continue to offer high-quality cutting tools at an honest price, I'll continue to buy them because it's my hobby. I think that the silent majority feels the same.

[sal]

Thanx for the encouragement Ippon,

As you all can see from the past many pages, There is a lot more to running a business than just producing high quality, high performing products in an honest, fair and proper manner. As mentioned, I guess we'll see what happens? But "Wow" is a real reaction.

sal

[cabfrank]

:) Mastiff's post was the first time I laughed reading this entire thread.

[anagarika]

I agree with Ippon though I likely will still have to resort buying off Amazon because that’s the most cost effective for me living so far from US.

Mastiff being candid, describing the customer feeling based on known raw facts/statement: price increases for end user, because dealer asked for it. Can’t say I don’t feel the same. To say I love price increase is a lie, but I’m not mad either. It is as it is. At least his post gave me good laugh :).

Having said that, Ippon put it the best. We all need to wait & see how it turns out for everyone and how market really works. There are still unknown factors around to say if its going to be good, bad or in between.

Just to remind all, Sal did mention he buried 1200 knives for not meeting spec. He got praised for insisting on quality. Does everyone think it’s free? It comes from the profit Spyderco made. Spyderco needs to be profitable, dealer too, at the price customer willing to pay for (considering quality, need, coolness, perceived rarity, etc.). It think it’s going to work out, as an engineer by training, I believe quality comes at it’s cost. Hopefully buyer is aware & willing to pay for it.

@ Sal, I’m glad that you stick around & can keep this going. You admitted being steel & edge junkies too, and having a business vehicle that can sustain that and in a way share with other junkies (Mule project for example), is something I appreciate. Whether I can afford more Spyderco in future is to be seen, as there’re too many factors and I believe, for most members here (I can be wrong), it’s a hobby.

PS everyone: talking about Quality, I recommend reading Pirsig’s book on Zen. :cool:

[ThePeacent]

Thanx for the encouragement Ippon,

As you all can see from the past many pages, There is a lot more to running a business than just producing high quality, high performing products in an honest, fair and proper manner. As mentioned, I guess we'll see what happens? But "Wow" is a real reaction.

sal

I am okay with the 5%. Collecting watches and there was a period some brands had an annual 9% increase.

Will the prices of Spyderco also be raised in Europe? We don’t have a 40% discount here.

****, you're lucky if you get any Spydie at MSRP in any store here (Spain)

[vivi]

Thanx for the encouragement Ippon,

As you all can see from the past many pages, There is a lot more to running a business than just producing high quality, high performing products in an honest, fair and proper manner. As mentioned, I guess we'll see what happens? But "Wow" is a real reaction.

sal

I am okay with the 5%. Collecting watches and there was a period some brands had an annual 9% increase.

Will the prices of Spyderco also be raised in Europe? We don’t have a 40% discount here.

****, you're lucky if you get any Spydie at MSRP in any store here (Spain)

Didn't realize that was the case for you guys. Does that include ordering from a US based store? Import taxes or something?

That's rough. I'm not sure if I've ever paid MSRP aside from a Swick and a Mule.

[ThePeacent]

Thanx for the encouragement Ippon,

As you all can see from the past many pages, There is a lot more to running a business than just producing high quality, high performing products in an honest, fair and proper manner. As mentioned, I guess we'll see what happens? But "Wow" is a real reaction.

sal

I am okay with the 5%. Collecting watches and there was a period some brands had an annual 9% increase.

Will the prices of Spyderco also be raised in Europe? We don’t have a 40% discount here.

****, you're lucky if you get any Spydie at MSRP in any store here (Spain)

Didn't realize that was the case for you guys. Does that include ordering from a US based store? Import taxes or something?

That's rough. I'm not sure if I've ever paid MSRP aside from a Swick and a Mule.

well buying from Spanish stores (either B&M or online) you pay the taxes, import fees etc. directly in the knife's price at the store.

If you order from US or outside you have to pay VAT + Import Taxes + customs fees (this one if they decide to hold the package, which happens 90% of the times if it's labeled as $30 value or more :confused: )

So, I get a Delica for $60 on Knifecenter, then I get hit by the 21% VAT + Import taxes (that's 18-30% of the Product + Shipping cost depending on price, weight and size) + customs fees (which will very very likely happen, and it's 12-18% over the total price, the sum of VAT + Import Taxes)

So I can risk and easily pay $130 for a Delica, or purchase it new at store for $124.95

:mad:

[anagarika]

Thanx for the encouragement Ippon,

As you all can see from the past many pages, There is a lot more to running a business than just producing high quality, high performing products in an honest, fair and proper manner. As mentioned, I guess we'll see what happens? But "Wow" is a real reaction.

sal

I am okay with the 5%. Collecting watches and there was a period some brands had an annual 9% increase.

Will the prices of Spyderco also be raised in Europe? We don’t have a 40% discount here.

****, you're lucky if you get any Spydie at MSRP in any store here (Spain)

Didn't realize that was the case for you guys. Does that include ordering from a US based store? Import taxes or something?

That's rough. I'm not sure if I've ever paid MSRP aside from a Swick and a Mule.

well buying from Spanish stores (either B&M or online) you pay the taxes, import fees etc. directly in the knife's price at the store.

If you order from US or outside you have to pay VAT + Import Taxes + customs fees (this one if they decide to hold the package, which happens 90% of the times if it's labeled as $30 value or more :confused: )

So, I get a Delica for $60 on Knifecenter, then I get hit by the 21% VAT + Import taxes (that's 18-30% of the Product + Shipping cost depending on price, weight and size) + customs fees (which will very very likely happen, and it's 12-18% over the total price, the sum of VAT + Import Taxes)

So I can risk and easily pay $130 for a Delica, or purchase it new at store for $124.95

:mad:

Similar situations here. Threshold is 50$ for import duty to be applied, and always a risk it goes missing like last shipping of black Pac Salt from a BF member (never left Jamaica NY USPS I guess, I have contacts with local post office through work & they assured me it never reached inward port). Guaranteed delivery with courier & insurance might double or triple the cost.

[vivi]

Sounds like it might be worth making a thread exploring solutions to that issue.

[bh49]

Sounds like it might be worth making a thread exploring solutions to that issue.

Europeans are not first day here and I am sure that they figure out the best way to get Spydercos.
High Spyderco cost for them it is a pity, but they have their own benefits living in EU. Some benefits Americans even cannot imagine. But like you said this is better for different thread.
Now I have two question: "What is the next Spyderco to buy?" and what will be your next Spyderco in 2018? :) :) :) :D :D
Or may be this is the topic for another threads as well?
And the last question:" Where is my Rhino?".

[Peter1960]

Roman, We Europeans pay a lot of money for our benefits, they are no gifts. Americans tend to not seeing both sides of the coins, when it comes to this. It's true, you get what you pay for. And with our hobby for Spydies we even send money to US for the benefit of US-people.