Sharpening Spyderco's Hawkbills, Reverse S & Recurves?

[JD Spydo]

I've had threads like this one in the past but it's been a while and it's high time I pick the brains of the fans who use these great Spyderco blades i.e. Hawkbills, Reverse S & Recurves. There's a bunch of new faces here and I thought maybe we could get some new tips on sharpening these specialty blades. I know that most everyone here probably uses Spyderco's 204 Sharpmaker for sharpening these types of blades and I do use mine on these types of blades most of the time but as difficult as it is to get these types of blades sharpened I like to check with people to see if there is some other way to improve on this>> or to maybe make the Sharpmaker work more efficiently?

Spyderco also has some other specialty blades that I've have a bit of trouble getting them sharp as I would like to >> one being the C-111 Captain model which is a very unusual specialty type blade. So let's talk and hopefully compare notes on your methods of sharpening all of these special types of blades. Here lately I've been experimenting with my GOLDENSTONE and I've had some interesting results with it on some of these more challenging blades. Which is why I want to see the GOLDENSTONE in more grit selections eventually. I'm also anxious to see what the GAUNTLET system will be able to do as well.

As the old adage says "There's More Than One Way To Skin A Cat">> with that said there is probaby more than one way to sharpen some of these non-conventional type blade designs too. So let's talk about ways to get these great blade designs functioning at optimal performance levels. Also let's differentiate between Spyderedges and plain edges too.

[vivi]

Szabo folder (Recurve)

To reprofile it I used my XX coarse DMT and skipped the part near the ricasso, using strokes like I would for something like a Military. Then I went back with a diamond rod and hit the recurve, and blended it in with sandpaper.

I microbevel at 15DPS with the sharpmaker. I use the corners of the brown rods and I don't follow the curve of the blade at all. I use the same sort of stroke as I do when I sharpen my Ronin 2. It produces good enough results, even if following the curve may work better. I finish my stropping everything but the recurve using a normal stropping motion.


Tasman Salt SE (Hawkbill)

This one I didn't sharpen at all for a while, and cut all sorts of things with it that dulled it bad. Eventually I sharpened it up, at about 25 degrees on the sharpened side. I had some coins under the sharpmaker with a medium rod in the 20 degree slot. After the edge got pretty thick I rerofiled it on a sharpmaker at 20 degrees until it had a fresh apex. Much sharper now compared to when it was neglected. I plan to reprofile it to 15 degrees when I find the time.

When I sharpen it, I use slow strokes with fairly light pressure. I use straight pulls like with the Szabo, similar to sharpening a wharncliffe. I do not follow the curve of the hawkbill. I use medium rods, sharpening the side with the bevel at 20 degrees for 5-6 strokes, then doing one flat to the stone stroke on the back side. I strop on the corner of my strop as well.

[JD Spydo]

Vivi I assume that both blades you are speaking about must be plain edged? Which is interesting because I actually find the plain edged Hawkbill more tricky to sharpen than the Spyderedged Hawkbills.

Also is the Szabo folder really considered a recurve? Because I always thought the recurve blade Spyders were models like the Zulu, Ulize, Spyker, Adventura. I always thought that the Szabo folder has a blade similar to the Ayoob which simply has a continuous curve with a "belly". I always thought that the true Recurves had a wave type blade which curves up and down from heel to tip?

Also another blade style I've wondered about is the C-111 Captain model>> I always thought that the C-111 Captain model was a type of modified Hawkbill>> but if that's wrong I wish someone would tell me what that blade design is considered to be called?

Also please tell us if your blades are plain edged, Spyderedged or combo-edged?

[ThePeacent]

I also consider the Szabo a curved one, not a recurve (that'd be an Ulize, Kukri, Schempp Rock, Hossom, Cricket, Matriarch...)
In my case I also don't follow the curve of my hawkbills and I just pull them down towards the floor through the SM rods. SE are more easily sharpened than my hawkbill PE like the one on my Byrd crossbill.

Light passes, skipping the very tip (point) of the blade gets them quickly and aggressively sharp, I go to white rods if I want real scary sharpness but I often do not go further than the brown rods for hawkbills as my uses would put out of the game any refined edge very soon.

[JD Spydo]

I'm finding plain edged Reverse S blades to be a challenge like few other sharpening jobs. I'm mainly trying to perfect my skill of sharpening PE Reverse S blades mainly with the 204 sharpmaker and the GOLDENSTONE.

To here Brother PEACENT talk you would have to believe that he never gets his blades very dull at all. Because I've had to do a lot more than just a few passes on PE Hawkbills and PE Reverse S blades. I've also had some success sharpening PE Hawkbills and PE Reverse S blades with my 701 Profile kit too. Can't wait till Spyderco gets the new Profile set released.

Actually I'm finding sharpening serrated Reverse S blades and SE Hawkbills easier than their plain edged counterparts.

[vivi]

Vivi I assume that both blades you are speaking about must be plain edged? Which is interesting because I actually find the plain edged Hawkbill more tricky to sharpen than the Spyderedged Hawkbills.

Also is the Szabo folder really considered a recurve? Because I always thought the recurve blade Spyders were models like the Zulu, Ulize, Spyker, Adventura. I always thought that the Szabo folder has a blade similar to the Ayoob which simply has a continuous curve with a "belly". I always thought that the true Recurves had a wave type blade which curves up and down from heel to tip?

Also another blade style I've wondered about is the C-111 Captain model>> I always thought that the C-111 Captain model was a type of modified Hawkbill>> but if that's wrong I wish someone would tell me what that blade design is considered to be called?

Also please tell us if your blades are plain edged, Spyderedged or combo-edged?

The tasman salt is SE and the szabo is a recurve to my understanding. It cannot be fully sharpened on a flat benchstone as you'll not hit the edge near the ricasso that is curved, hence me considering it a recurve :)

Anyways here's a quick clip giving you an idea of my technique with either. Like I said, completely ignoring the curve might not be best practice, but it gets them shaving sharp so that's good enough for me. I tried following the curve of the szabo and it was obnoxious to do and didn't seem to produce any better results.

https://streamable.com/k29zp

Keep in mind when I'm not trying to film and sharpen at the same time the strokes are cleaner, slower, and I go closer to the tip.

[JD Spydo]

OK Vivi maybe I'm going to learn something here>> because I've always been told that models like the Spyker, Adventura, Zulu and the ULIZE>> in other words a model that has reciprocating curves ( up & down) is what is by definition considered a "Recurve". The Szabo, Ayoob and Chinook all have really well defined bellys with a wide curve but it is a continuous curve and not one that reciprocates ( Up & down).

Get your pics out and check those first 4 models I mentioned against the second group of 3 models I mentioned in the following sentence. I've even had 2 custom knife makers that I've gotten acquainted with tell me that models like the first 4 I mentioned are true "Recurve" models. Actually I wish Sal, Michael Janich, Ed Schempp or one of the other knife makers would confirm or deny what I just said.

Actually models like the Szabo, Ayoob and Chinook models with a big, well defined curve with a lot of belly I find relatively easy to sharpen with my Spyderco 302 Benchstones. Whereas the true recurves really need something like the 204 Sharpmaker IMO. Also I can't wait until the GAUNTLET and the new GALLEY V Systems come out because I've heard those two sharpening kits will have tools that will sharpen these more exotic blade designs.

[xceptnl]

I'll chime in on this one JD. I am a big fan of curved blades; inward, outward, in and out, & even out and in... :D
Seriously though, i do not own a Sharpmaker (yet) and usually rely on my 701 profile stones to handle almost all of my curved blade sharpening. I use primarily the corners for SE blades and a combination of corner and curved sections for PE.

One thing of note that I have found to be true is that I can get a better edge on my SE blades if I altermate strokes. I don't mean this as it is typically said for left to right alteration though. After watching the Sharpmaker video on Youtube over the past few years, it occured to me that Sal's draw strokes on the serrated knives in the video were somewhat faster than my technique but when I would try to mimmic the man himself I wound up missing part of the scallop on each serration. This lead me to using alternating heel to tip (pull) and then tip tp heel (push) strokes.

The results (for me) have been a much more consistent finish as confirmed by touch and the Sharpie trick. Keep in mind I am using the 701 Spyderco Profile stones against some wooden wedges I cut to allow me to replicate the Sharpmaker consistency. Give the alternating stroke a try next time guys and let me know what you think.

[JD Spydo]

I'll chime in on this one JD. I am a big fan of curved blades; inward, outward, in and out, & even out and in... :D
Seriously though, i do not own a Sharpmaker (yet) and usually rely on my 701 profile stones to handle almost all of my curved blade sharpening. I use primarily the corners for SE blades and a combination of corner and curved sections for PE. .

The 701 Profiles are truly a "genius" designed tool. Now there is one thing I'll point out concerning the radii parts of the 701 stones on both sides. I've found that one of the two radii will usually fit the scallops almost perfectly. And even if it isn't perfect you can usually hold them at an angle both ways and it will compensate. I do alternate using the corners both ways on the spikes as well and I've found that I get a super razor/needle sharp spike similar to how they come form the factory ( many times I can even get them better).

I especially like the use the 701 Profiles manually on Spyderedged Hawkbills and Reverse S blades ( Matriarch, Civilian, Cricket ect) I don't know about you Landon but I've been trying to get Spyderco not only to bring back the 701 Profiles but I want them in more grits too. From what you are telling me I bet you would like to see an Ultra-Fine 701 Profile? I've often thought of what I could do with an Ultra-Fine 701 stone on many different blade designs and espeically the Reverse S & Hawkbills and even Recurve blades.

[xceptnl]

I'll chime in on this one JD. I am a big fan of curved blades; inward, outward, in and out, & even out and in... :D
Seriously though, i do not own a Sharpmaker (yet) and usually rely on my 701 profile stones to handle almost all of my curved blade sharpening. I use primarily the corners for SE blades and a combination of corner and curved sections for PE. .

The 701 Profiles are truly a "genius" designed tool. Now there is one thing I'll point out concerning the radii parts of the 701 stones on both sides. I've found that one of the two radii will usually fit the scallops almost perfectly. And even if it isn't perfect you can usually hold them at an angle both ways and it will compensate. I do alternate using the corners both ways on the spikes as well and I've found that I get a super razor/needle sharp spike similar to how they come form the factory ( many times I can even get them better).

I especially like the use the 701 Profiles manually on Spyderedged Hawkbills and Reverse S blades ( Matriarch, Civilian, Cricket ect) I don't know about you Landon but I've been trying to get Spyderco not only to bring back the 701 Profiles but I want them in more grits too. From what you are telling me I bet you would like to see an Ultra-Fine 701 Profile? I've often thought of what I could do with an Ultra-Fine 701 stone on many different blade designs and espeically the Reverse S & Hawkbills and even Recurve blades.

I certainly am interested in future offerings of the 701 profiles. Particularly in other textures like Diamond, CBN, and obviously Ultra-Fine.

I have used the radiused portion to sharpen the scallops before but I find it tedious some days so I revert back to my push & pull strokes. I have applied some super fine 2000 grit adhesive sandpaper to my 701 Fine stone before and really polished the scallops

[elena86]

Szabo folder (Recurve)

To reprofile it I used my XX coarse DMT and skipped the part near the ricasso, using strokes like I would for something like a Military. Then I went back with a diamond rod and hit the recurve, and blended it in with sandpaper.

I microbevel at 15DPS with the sharpmaker. I use the corners of the brown rods and I don't follow the curve of the blade at all. I use the same sort of stroke as I do when I sharpen my Ronin 2. It produces good enough results, even if following the curve may work better. I finish my stropping everything but the recurve using a normal stropping motion.


Tasman Salt SE (Hawkbill)

This one I didn't sharpen at all for a while, and cut all sorts of things with it that dulled it bad. Eventually I sharpened it up, at about 25 degrees on the sharpened side. I had some coins under the sharpmaker with a medium rod in the 20 degree slot. After the edge got pretty thick I rerofiled it on a sharpmaker at 20 degrees until it had a fresh apex. Much sharper now compared to when it was neglected. I plan to reprofile it to 15 degrees when I find the time.

When I sharpen it, I use slow strokes with fairly light pressure. I use straight pulls like with the Szabo, similar to sharpening a wharncliffe. I do not follow the curve of the hawkbill. I use medium rods, sharpening the side with the bevel at 20 degrees for 5-6 strokes, then doing one flat to the stone stroke on the back side. I strop on the corner of my strop as well.

You lost me there ....

[xceptnl]

Szabo folder (Recurve)

To reprofile it I used my XX coarse DMT and skipped the part near the ricasso, using strokes like I would for something like a Military. Then I went back with a diamond rod and hit the recurve, and blended it in with sandpaper.

I microbevel at 15DPS with the sharpmaker. I use the corners of the brown rods and I don't follow the curve of the blade at all. I use the same sort of stroke as I do when I sharpen my Ronin 2. It produces good enough results, even if following the curve may work better. I finish my stropping everything but the recurve using a normal stropping motion.


Tasman Salt SE (Hawkbill)

This one I didn't sharpen at all for a while, and cut all sorts of things with it that dulled it bad. Eventually I sharpened it up, at about 25 degrees on the sharpened side. I had some coins under the sharpmaker with a medium rod in the 20 degree slot. After the edge got pretty thick I rerofiled it on a sharpmaker at 20 degrees until it had a fresh apex. Much sharper now compared to when it was neglected. I plan to reprofile it to 15 degrees when I find the time.

When I sharpen it, I use slow strokes with fairly light pressure. I use straight pulls like with the Szabo, similar to sharpening a wharncliffe. I do not follow the curve of the hawkbill. I use medium rods, sharpening the side with the bevel at 20 degrees for 5-6 strokes, then doing one flat to the stone stroke on the back side. I strop on the corner of my strop as well.

You lost me there ....

Seems he just skipped the recurve section nearest the tang and left it un touched up

[JD Spydo]

Now Landon and all you other sharpening afis need to know one point concerning the use of Spyderco's 701 Profiles for sharpening Spyderedges. We were talking earlier on sharpening the scallops with the radii part of the 701 stones and using the corners of the stones by alternating them to sharpen the spike parts of the serrations. There is one final trick to getting them super razor sharp and if you don't do it you might be getting frustrated.

After you have done everything on the scallops and spikes you then want to "de-burr" the back side of the serrated blade, It doesn't take much to do it right and you don't want to over do it. But you will raise a small burr on the opposite side and I usually take the rounded/radii on one of the 701 stones or I take the corner on one of the 204 Ultra-Fine stones ( which is my favorite to use) and I zip it in both directions once but no more than twice in both directions. Because it doesn't take much to eliminate the burr.

Actually when you think about it the entire skill of sharpening is a really good "de-burring" process>> because the less burr you have the better apex you have. Ask any Barber who strops a straight razor and they will tell you that the two things you accomplish with a strop is to "de-burr" and to give the edge a good, thorough cleaning.

[RLDubbya]

The A.G. Russell site and article I posted on your other recurve thread basically say that "any S shaped blade is, by definition, a recurve."

The Szabo has a clear recurve; the edge at the heel is raised up; the edge at the belly is much lower; and the tip raises up again. Theoretically, I can hold the Szabo in a standard grip, as though to cut somebody, but instead stab the entire edge lengthwise into their mid-section; the belly of the knife would hit the enemy first, and if I keep pushing, the belly would push through the skin, muscles, visceral fat and other tissue, and enter the abdominal cavity proper before the heel. That's part of the design.

The Ayoob has a fairly level edge, and in the above scenario, the belly of the blade would enter the abdominal cavity roughly simultaneously with the heel. The Ayoob is not designed, primarily, for the slashing stab. It is designed for what we think of as a more standard stab: lengthwise, driving first with the tip, then the belly, then the heel, then the handle. The Ayoob's angle between the blade and handle is designed to place the wrist and forearm in their strongest position for this traditional stab. I recall Massad demonstrating a fairly great increase in the force generated at the tip of the knife when stabbing by changing this angle of attack.

As far as sharpening, I use the Wicked Edge with great results; there are a couple times on each stroke when I use the edge only of the stone; other times I use the entire face of the stone. One thing is certain: it gets the Szabo and other recurves scary sharp. I would think the Sharpmaker would do an excellent job as well. A budget solution could be to purchase some diamond lapping film, cut narrow strips of it, wrap a strip lengthwise around a wooden or steel dowel, and sharpen with this.

[vivi]

The Szabo folder has an edge the curves up and down. It is a recurve blade as far as I can tell. Maybe we have different definitions of what a recurve is, but regardless the entire cutting edge cannot be sharpened using typical strokes on a regular bench stone.

It can be reprofiled or sharpened with a bench stone save for the part nearest the ricasso. I had to use a diamond file for the recurve portion.

Anyways I think this picture should be clear enough:



It is certainly more subtle than more dramatic recurves, like a Kershaw Bump, but since it can't be sharpened on a regular bench stone like my Military, it's a recurve in my book.

[Evil D]

I reprofiled my Ulize on my Edge with the standard size stones. It probably did mellow out the curves a bit and it took an eternity to finally apex the whole thing but now it easily sharpens on the Sharpmaker.