Spyderco bench stone questions

[Scott Archi]

Hi guys,

As you can see my name is Scott. As a preface to my actual questions I'll start by saying I first started sharpening straight razors and then ventured into knives. I've been sharpening knives since I was a kid but never got serious about it until after I got into razors. I can freehand very well.

In the last 3 years I have spent over $2000 on sharpening equipment. Mostly just to test different mediums and then release them to future homes. Searching for the ones that suited my needs. I've tried diamond plates (Dmt from xx up to ee), japanese water stones ( shapton glass, naniwa, norton and my personal favourites of which are my only remaining water stones the king 1/6k and ice bear 10k). I've had a go with Arkansas stones both vintage (norton and pike) and modern (Dan's whetstone). Belgian coticule, I had 50 go through my hands before determining my opinion on them. Won't go into that here. Various UK slates, charnley forest, welsh slate, thuringian(escher). A multitude of barber hones and my personal favourite stone. The india coarse/fine oilstone. Not quite sure why it's my favourite but it is. The feedback. The toothy edge it leaves. Out of all the rare and expensive stones I've owned I've sold or traded them. You could say I am pretty obsessed sharpener.

My most recent trade was for a set of Spyderco Ceramic bench stones. M, F and UF. I also traded some other stones for a sharp maker kit with the diamond and uf rods but haven't recieved them yet ( the sharpmaker kit) and doubt it will put a better edge on a knife then I can freehand.

So now I've played with the bench stones for a few days. They work excellent on knives. I've been loving them for that.

With razors I'm still figuring them out and it's way to early to form a serious definite conclusion. From my experience sharpening a razor. I am not finding much difference between the M and the F. They both seem fairly coarse but the F seems to be leaving the edge fairly damaged (deeper scratches I would expect from a sub 1k waterstone). Is this normal?

I'm setting my edge on the medium, going to the F to remove the scratch pattern which usually results in a damaged edge... It's mind boggling really. Using light pressure and the whole 9.

So once i get this figured out. No more edge damage just a semi fine edge. Will shave arm hair and then moving onto the UF it gets better but never really polished as I expect from my razors.

So I am working out a successful way to hone a razor. Looking for tips if any one out there has used the 3 stones to get a razor shaving comfortably.

Set the edge on M, transition to F and then UF. Try a micro bevel and yea nah. Nothing. Bust out my 10k waterstone. Where it needs to be. Try using the UF after the 10k yea nah.. Degraded edge to sub 6k level. Is this normal?

Is there something I need to do with these stones or will they naturally break in and become finer like an arkansas?

Lap them? Break the corners? I have a surface plate and SIC paper or loose grit.


Btw. Looking to get my first Spyderco knife. Too broke though so looking grim for the future. Thinking delica 4 though if I ever get in a place where I can afford one. Stupid car is getting old.


If you made it this far I applaud your patience and persistence. I'm sure it wasn't the most interesting to read.

Thanks guys,
Scott

[vivi]

Scott,

That sounds unusual. I've put sharp, polished edges on more knives than I could count with my fine and ultrafine stones, and have never experienced this issue.

One thing that stood out to me if your M and F don't feel much different. For me the M has a rough feel, I can feel the friction and grit when I sharpen a knife. The fine feels pretty smooth to me, the feedback is much different.

When I finish a knife on an M stone, I can run my fingernail doen the edge and feel the toothiness of my edge. With fine or ultrafine it feels perfectly smooth.

Are the stones new or used? It sounds like the fine and ultrafine have been damaged somehow.

[Scott Archi]

All 3 stones came brand new in box. It's not that they don't feel different. Its they don't feel that different. Seemingly leaving a large gap and a lot of work for the uf to pick up. Of course I'm still learning and will continue to fiddle with them until I get something good going.

[JD Spydo]

First of all Scott I want to wish you a warm welcome to the Spyderville Community :) You are among friends and believe me there are a lot of people here that will try to help you with your sharpening issues.

First I want to point out that Sal Glesser himself ( the owner and CEO of Spyderco) recommends the Spyderco Ultra-Fine model 302 benchstone for sharpening straight razors. I play with a few straight razors on occasion myself although I'm probably not into them like you evidently are. Actually I would like to learn more about straight razors at some point ( sharpening & knowing quality units). Now the stones that are good for sharpening straight razors are sort of a different ball game than the succession of stones needed for high quality knife sharpening.

Most of the time when I've chatted with guys who are into straight razors ( StraightRazorPlace.com) they mostly recommend the fine and ultra-fine for most the sharpening jobs on razors. I kind of pride myself concerning knife sharpening but I will say that after playing with it 30 years + I still learn new things about sharpening on these great forums all the time. I'm also kind of a fanatic concerning Spyderco's Spyderedged ( serrated edges) and that's a completely different animal all together>> albeit there are principles in the science of sharpening that tend to work for all types of edged tools.

I'll try to keep this concise and let you know that ceramic stones like Spyderco's do tend to load up quickly. Usually after sharpening two blades I immediately clean the Spyderco stones that I use>> I find that they have a very uniform bite if I keep them clean. I've had great results using a product called Bar Keeper's Friend for cleaning. But I will say that the regimen for sharpening knives is quite a bit different than it is for straight razors. Angles for knives vary a lot between the proper angles for doing straight razors. I do have a book and a video I could recommend if you are interested.

[vivi]

Well I suppose there's the possibility they need to break in. I know my medium rods were a bit more aggressive when new, though the F and UF didn't seem to change hardly at all.

Still, all of this is really strange considering you seem to be a very experienced sharpener that knows what he's doing. I'm at a loss. Are the surfaces on all three stones smooth to the touch and free of imperfections?

I agree with JD Spydo that cleaning them makes them perform better....but I've slacked at that pretty bad at times and it's never damaged my edge. It just makes the stones work slower for the most part...still gets sharp.

I hope you find a solution. Your experiences are very unusual.

[linuxology]

All 3 stones came brand new in box. It's not that they don't feel different. Its they don't feel that different. Seemingly leaving a large gap and a lot of work for the uf to pick up. Of course I'm still learning and will continue to fiddle with them until I get something good going.

I disagree, they do feel different. Medium is not meant to be coarse. Possibly you are not spending enough time on each stone or hitting the proper angle. Try the sharpie technique. It takes a while to learn hand sharpening. Without a doubt I can feel a difference between the three... Possibly you should try the sharpmaker? You have stated you are still learning so take that into consideration.

[JD Spydo]

I like what "Linux" just said and I'll add some things to it. His recommendation of the Sharpie Trick is great advice because as simple of a technique as it is that method does help a lot no matter which sharpening stones or abrasives you tend to use

One primary aspect of knife sharpening that you just don't normally encounter with straight razor sharpening is "Reprofiling". Because Reprofiling sets up the primary angle you need for the final finishing stages. I mainly use something aggressive like coarse or extra coarse diamond benchstones to set the initial angles>> it really saves you a lot of time and you can remove a lot of stock quickly especially if you've got a really banged up blade.

With straight razors you normally don't encounter that type of edge problem>> with them it's usually just a fine tuning and fine honing you're trying to achieve. There are a lot of YOUTUBE videos on the Sharpie trick. But you mainly just want to take a Sharpie or other magic marker type pen to color about an eighth of an inch from the edge and the coloring willl indicate as to whether you are abrading all the way out to the apex of the edge. It's really handy when you're freehand sharpening on a stone.

I also recommend that you might try the Spyderco 204 Sharpmaker unit. By using it and studying the video that comes with it I was able to really improve my own sharpening techniques and it's a great tool for field use and really handy for quick touch ups.

[Scott Archi]

I use the sharpie method of determining when my angle is correct. I'm not having any issues with knives. The M F UF progression is working perfectly. I have even shaved my face with a few of the knives I've sharpened with excellent results.

Where the problem for me is coming from sharpening razors on these stones with a much higher contact area since they are laid flat on the stone and the edge and spine touch.

Seemingly left with a rough ish edge coming off the F that the UF is having issues polishing. Will try leaving out the M stone and killing the edge and going F to UF. Then strop and shave.

Again the edge is set but I'm reluctant to say the F and M are fairly similar in grit. Maybe they are not similar and I'm used to finer sharpening stones and the F is leaving an edge under the expectation of what I was thinking it would leave.

I know the potential is there based on my knife results so it's figuring out how to successfully use them on my razors that is the perplexing part.

It's too early to say either way. I'll reportback

Thanks for the welcome.

[Scott Archi]

Delete accidentally quoted myself.

[Scott Archi]

I've got good news. I got a great shaving edge on my razor today. I took a diamond file (my dmt finally bit the bucket after lapping countless hard black and translucent arkansas) to break the long edge of the stones. Seemingly the culprit of of the rogue scratches in the edge.

Anyways set the edge on medium about 20 strokes, confirmed this with a thumb pad test. On to the fine stone for a further 20 strokes. At this point the edge didn't seem that fine but definitely better then from the M although less bite(of course since its getting polished).

What threw me off here was the aparent lack of keeness coming off of the fine stone. Usually in the world of water stones I could clearly tell when jumping grits with a markedly large increase in observable sharpness. The feedback through observation with the ceramics are different and I think that's where my problem occured. I was doing too many a strokes on the fine stone leading to the edge chipping out.

So thinking what the **** it's ready to go till UF i did a further 20 laps stropped on leather and shaved. It was incredible. For such little work such great results. I knew it was my lack of experience with ceramics and not the stones themselves. Just got to learn when to jump grits and when to stop. Key points.

Just thought I would share incase anyone using a straight razor was wanting to try a full ceramic progression. It does work and very well.

[awa54]

All 3 stones came brand new in box. It's not that they don't feel different. Its they don't feel that different. Seemingly leaving a large gap and a lot of work for the uf to pick up. Of course I'm still learning and will continue to fiddle with them until I get something good going.

I disagree, they do feel different. Medium is not meant to be coarse. Possibly you are not spending enough time on each stone or hitting the proper angle. Try the sharpie technique. It takes a while to learn hand sharpening. Without a doubt I can feel a difference between the three... Possibly you should try the sharpmaker? You have stated you are still learning so take that into consideration.

Linux, straight razors are self aligning; the spine rests on the stone as you sharpen, thus defining the edge angle without any additional input. A sharpie might be of use to ensure that each grit is used to the point of removing all the marker, but it shouldn't be required.

The SM would be a terrible tool for an actual shaving razor, the contact area is far too narrow!

[Scott Archi]

Just an update. The fine stone is certainly the culprit of the anomalous deep scratches left on whatever it touches. I will have to lap this stone... The scratches it's been leaving in the edge are sub 100 grit which is not acceptable. What is QC usually like on these stones?

[JD Spydo]

Like I said earlier "Straight Razors" are a different animal all together. Sharpening methods are different as well as stropping. Now some of the principles are basically the same but they are different edged tools and require different types of maintenance.

I have heard that some of the super, ultra-fine Shapton stones are great for Straight Razors. Different types of strops are worth looking into as well. I have a strop I got from a Barber supply house that is made from Russian Boar hide and it's different that the ones I have made from traditional leather.

I would love to see Spyderco make a Straight Razor at some point. But I can assure you guys that will be one model that I won't want in Spyderedge :D

[sal]

Hi Scott Archi,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[soundshaman]

Like I said earlier "Straight Razors" are a different animal all together. Sharpening methods are different as well as stropping. Now some of the principles are basically the same but they are different edged tools and require different types of maintenance.

I have heard that some of the super, ultra-fine Shapton stones are great for Straight Razors. Different types of strops are worth looking into as well. I have a strop I got from a Barber supply house that is made from Russian Boar hide and it's different that the ones I have made from traditional leather.

I would love to see Spyderco make a Straight Razor at some point. But I can assure you guys that will be one model that I won't want in Spyderedge :D

I'll buy a spydie razor! White steel please!

[setldown]

Check out this chart. The Spyderco UF are rated at 3 microns or just in between a Shapton 4000 and 5000 grit stone.
(You may have to right click and select view image to enlarge)