Why linerless?

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The Deacon
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby The Deacon » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:00 am

xceptnl wrote:I do want to add to my thoughts from my earlier post. I do not need every knife I own to be sub 2oz. I like the weight and heft on some designs, however it is very subjective. I hold a given knife in my hand and think, "hmmm, this seems perfect". Still others though i love as they are but wouldn't mind trying them in a lighter weight without liners. The Delica 4 is a terrific knife, but I have also enjoyed carrying the D3 with its barrel clip and linerless design.
I suppose mine are more objective. I don't mind weight, or liners, when they bring one or more of the things I value to the table. For example, as the 40th Anniversary and fluted CF Natives prove, there is no need to add liners to a knife with a CF handle. The same would be true for most, if not all, other re-enforced "plastic" handle materials. On the other hand, there would be no way to build something like this without them...
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archangel
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My Liner Kings (or Queens?!)

Postby archangel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:24 pm

Here they are:
Szabo Folder
94D99CCB-C32D-4040-9479-D7BDF46D1E02.jpeg
P4
621610C9-B200-4A30-98CF-EF97433C3F46.jpeg
M2
5EB8C99F-2498-4E46-8DAA-76B29ECE7518.jpeg
Chaparral
226CC7FF-0FDC-4B7A-9FCC-51703D4B81FE.jpeg
Meerkat
745F4AD4-A5EE-487F-8F28-D162805C6DAA.jpeg
Michael
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archangel
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My Liner Kings / Queens

Postby archangel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:25 pm

And the whole bunch:
0FB34DF0-5545-490D-A409-9E50F6871F21.jpeg
I suck at taking photos...
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archangel
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby archangel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:29 pm

I almost forgot: I sent a request to the :spyder: website crew that in future they should add a third and fourth picture of each knife, showing the two slim sides. Cause in my opinion, this is as well an important view of each knife. They replied that they may consider this...
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby Evil D » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:35 pm

xceptnl wrote:I do want to add to my thoughts from my earlier post. I do not need every knife I own to be sub 2oz. I like the weight and heft on some designs, however it is very subjective. I hold a given knife in my hand and think, "hmmm, this seems perfect". Still others though i love as they are but wouldn't mind trying them in a lighter weight without liners. The Delica 4 is a terrific knife, but I have also enjoyed carrying the D3 with its barrel clip and linerless design.
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, some people have a mindset like everything is absolute and will be a change across the board. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Spyderco stop making linered knives, only that they make more without them. At this point the vast majority have liners, so what's the big deal about a few not having them? Some people act like they'll be forced to buy something they don't like and want to argue it into the ground. I just don't understand that mentality. If I did that with every topic here I didn't agree with or like, I'd have 100k posts by now.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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archangel
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby archangel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:44 pm

I was not trying to persuade anyone that they must prefer linered designs over linerless. Just tried to understand why lately I got the feeling that people ask for more linerless designs. Sorry if that came out wrong. Everyone is of course free to have his very own preference.

Interestingly, only 5 of my 14 :spyder: folders have visible liners. 9 have none, or they are not visible from the outside.
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Evil D
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby Evil D » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:54 pm

archangel wrote:I was not trying to persuade anyone that they must prefer linered designs over linerless. Just tried to understand why lately I got the feeling that people ask for more linerless designs. Sorry if that came out wrong. Everyone is of course free to have his very own preference.

Interestingly, only 5 of my 14 :spyder: folders have visible liners. 9 have none, or they are not visible from the outside.

I think like someone else mentioned it's a sign of the times. At some point the over built pry bar folder fad is going to fizzle out. Also like someone else mentioned, Cold Steel has already proved you can make a bomb proof folder without liners. I think I prefer something in the middle... minimal liners...only enough to make the pivot rigid and that's enough. Having put a Manix 2 lightweight through hell I know for certain that full liners is not necessary for a hard use knife.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby El Gato » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:19 pm

I sure didn't mean to come across sounding like chicken little.
Former post deleted and apologies offered for sharing my thoughts.
Didn't intend for it to sound like a panic Just questioning a trend.

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:48 pm

This is a most interesting and some would consider a most controversial thread. But myself I'm just not that adamant about whether a model has a liner or not. One of my all time favorite Spyderco models ever is the C-60 Ayoob>> there was the original version all the way back to around 2002-03 and the G-10 Sprint run at about 2010-11 or thereabout. Both are incredibly great folders and I just can't get enough of them>> and I'm hoping for a newer Sprint Run at some point with a newer/better blade steel. And both of the C-60 models have liners and I could care less>> actually in a way I wouldn't change a thing on that model because it gives it the feeling of being a rigid, tough folder>> not to mention the space aged blade design of Massad Ayoob :cool:

Actually I tend to like the G-10 handled models the best overall because of toughness and durability. Again I don't care if the folder has a liner or not. If it makes it a better performing folder I don't care at all. The weight of a folder just isn't a factor with me much at all if I really like the design. Now on the other hand there are a lot of FRN handled models that don't have liners that I also dearly love like the CATCHERMAN model or the H-1 Spyderhawk.

I just want a folder or fixed blade that is relatively easy to maintain and performs well when I have to use it. I'm much more concerned about design ergonomics than I am whether it has a liner or not. I also don't care much about tip-up or tip-down carry either if they deploy easy and maintain well. But if it works for some people then more power to them :)

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby 40mm » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:41 pm

Today I took delivery of a very used Delica combo edge that I got for $35 on Ebay and immediately took the knife down and started cleaning it. What a mess! Rust and gunk all over. It solidified why I love Salt knives so much and how much easier they are to maintain. The simplicity of the linerless and just as important WASHERLESS Salt knives can't be overstated in my opinion. In fact the washers on this Delica were so messed up that I didn't even bother putting them back on. That and the fact that getting the washers back on is the biggest pain in the butt cheeks of all time. Still seems to function fine so I'm not overly concerned. Linerless.....it's what's for dinner.

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby tonijedi » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:35 am

40mm wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:41 pm
Today I took delivery of a very used Delica combo edge that I got for $35 on Ebay and immediately took the knife down and started cleaning it. What a mess! Rust and gunk all over. It solidified why I love Salt knives so much and how much easier they are to maintain. The simplicity of the linerless and just as important WASHERLESS Salt knives can't be overstated in my opinion. In fact the washers on this Delica were so messed up that I didn't even bother putting them back on. That and the fact that getting the washers back on is the biggest pain in the butt cheeks of all time. Still seems to function fine so I'm not overly concerned. Linerless.....it's what's for dinner.
Good point on the washerless attribute.

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:44 am

I can definitely see a place for linerless folders, and I do have one or two that are like that. However, for my own personal sense of safety and comfort when it comes to a pocket knife.....I do like to see stainless steel liners in there. Some people are fine with brass liners but I prefer the liners to be made of stain-resistant steel if possible. It gives that extra layer of protection from accidental cuts or abrasion, and, I like the extra weight to it, it feels better.

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby ferider » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:42 am

I simply don't understand why some people like certain knife features, for example Emerson Waves, concave blades (a pain for me to sharpen), Tanto blades in a folder, etc. But that's cool, I just stay away from them, as long as there is a market and users, why not ?

Along these lines is the recent LW and liner-less craze: except for saving manufacturing costs, why it would be good for moving parts of a knife to sit in G10 only ? For me, a moving steel Pivot needs to be ankered in Steel or Titanium. Why have an HRC > 60 blade and Pivot and then anker the Pivot in plastic ? Minimal liners as in the Manix LW show that proper ankering can be done without much weight impact. And regarding weight, in my pocket (I don't use clips), anything lighter than ~120g "disappears" anyways.

Just because a folder has steel liners, it doesn't have to be a "pry-bar". My CF Military, with steel liners, comes in at 117g, similar to - say - the Native Chief.

So I don't understand liner-less and LW. But that''s cool, you guys enjoy. The only downside for me is, that I can't enjoy some knife shapes and steels (for example, a liner'ed M4 Native 5 would be great). On the other hand, whoever bought Native Chief or M4 Native 5 might also have bought them if Spyderco had included minimal liners (such as in the Manix 2 LW).

I guess it's a business trade-off: how much additional money do you have to spend in manufacturing, to be inclusive of the few knife loving engineers like me ? :)

Roland.

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby 40mm » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:47 am

I'll play devils advocate against my earlier post and say this. The Delica I have has seen some serious use and I have no idea how old it is or exactly what it has been subjected to. So yes, while it did take some work, it cleaned up nicely and there wasn't any pitting or major damage. Also I am honestly enjoying the slight bit more heft that this Delica has. Maybe it's because I'm so used to carrying a Dragonfly Salt but I'm liking the solid feel here. Removing the washers doesn't seem to have affected the action at all. Now if I was going to use this knife as my trail running, mountain biking, swimming, in the waistband knife, I might find that the liners become an issue. So maybe I'm more of an anti WASHER guy than an anti LINER guy. Steel liners....they're what's for dinner. :)

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby soc_monki » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:36 am

Why not both? I have knives with liners and without. I don't take my knives without liners out to cut small tree branches and shrubs, but they work fine for boxes or stripping wire.

Sure, both have their positives and negatives, and we all like what we like. Me, I'll appreciate both. I'll also appreciate my linerless carbon fiber, my titanium... Well, just all of them!

Knives... They're what's for dinner!
Spyderco : Resilience, Tenacious, Persistence, Manix 2 G10, Para 3 G10, Para 3 LW, Paramilitary 2,
BBS Paramilitary 2, Amalgam, Native Chief, Blade HQ Manix 2 XL, Shaman, Gayle Bradley 2, DLC M4 Shaman, Magnitude
Kershaw : Tone, Thermite, Atmos, Natrix 7007cf, Natrix 7008cf, Bareknuckle 7777, Bareknuckle 20cv, Concierge, 7777CFM390 Bareknuckle
Zero Tolerance : 0566CF, 0770CF, 0770GRYBW, 0562CF, 0470, 0456CF, 0095BW, 0801TI
Ontario : Rat 1
CRKT : Caligo
Civivi : Plethiros, Baklash, Incite, Vexer
Cold Steel : AD10, 4Max Scout, SR1 Lite, SRK
Benchmade : Contego, Crooked River, Custom Crooked River, Super Freek, Mini Crooked River, Custom Mini Crooked River, 940-2, 550-1 Griptilian, 950bk Rift, 940-1, Custom Sheepsfoot Griptilian
Buck : 110, Bucklite 422, 110 LT, 110 Slim Select, 112 Slim Pro, Custom 110, 1978-79 110, 119
Artisan : Tradition
Hogue : Ritter RSK MK1-G2
Kabar : Becker BK2 Campanion, BK10 Crewman, Dog's Head, BK7
Hinderer : XM-18, XM-24

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby 40mm » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:43 am

LOL!!! Love it!
soc_monki wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:36 am
Why not both? I have knives with liners and without. I don't take my knives without liners out to cut small tree branches and shrubs, but they work fine for boxes or stripping wire.

Sure, both have their positives and negatives, and we all like what we like. Me, I'll appreciate both. I'll also appreciate my linerless carbon fiber, my titanium... Well, just all of them!

Knives... They're what's for dinner!

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby vivi » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:10 pm

soc_monki wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:36 am
I don't take my knives without liners out to cut small tree branches and shrubs, but they work fine for boxes or stripping wire.
I do :D
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Aqua Salt

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Re: Why linerless?

Postby awa54 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:11 pm

For example in the Delica/Endela/Endura, I like that there are liners, with that application the knife can be made thinner while retaining rigidity because of the steel liners. On the other hand the thicker Native is plenty rigid without liners to stiffen the G10 scales, so for that knife I'm glad Spyderco went linerless.

If Spyderco made linerless micarta knives again I'd certainly buy one, I really like my CRKT Centofante tribute and Moki Blakiston's fish owl, both for their lightness and the great feel of smooth micarta.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

soc_monki
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby soc_monki » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:18 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:10 pm
soc_monki wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:36 am
I don't take my knives without liners out to cut small tree branches and shrubs, but they work fine for boxes or stripping wire.
I do :D
Maybe I'll take my Manix 2 LW and trim some stuff in the yard... Not sure the para 3 is up for it though, except for smaller things!

I just tend to go for a heavier knife when I have to hack at a small limb or something. More weight, more inertia, more power!
Spyderco : Resilience, Tenacious, Persistence, Manix 2 G10, Para 3 G10, Para 3 LW, Paramilitary 2,
BBS Paramilitary 2, Amalgam, Native Chief, Blade HQ Manix 2 XL, Shaman, Gayle Bradley 2, DLC M4 Shaman, Magnitude
Kershaw : Tone, Thermite, Atmos, Natrix 7007cf, Natrix 7008cf, Bareknuckle 7777, Bareknuckle 20cv, Concierge, 7777CFM390 Bareknuckle
Zero Tolerance : 0566CF, 0770CF, 0770GRYBW, 0562CF, 0470, 0456CF, 0095BW, 0801TI
Ontario : Rat 1
CRKT : Caligo
Civivi : Plethiros, Baklash, Incite, Vexer
Cold Steel : AD10, 4Max Scout, SR1 Lite, SRK
Benchmade : Contego, Crooked River, Custom Crooked River, Super Freek, Mini Crooked River, Custom Mini Crooked River, 940-2, 550-1 Griptilian, 950bk Rift, 940-1, Custom Sheepsfoot Griptilian
Buck : 110, Bucklite 422, 110 LT, 110 Slim Select, 112 Slim Pro, Custom 110, 1978-79 110, 119
Artisan : Tradition
Hogue : Ritter RSK MK1-G2
Kabar : Becker BK2 Campanion, BK10 Crewman, Dog's Head, BK7
Hinderer : XM-18, XM-24

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Evil D
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Re: Why linerless?

Postby Evil D » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:39 pm

I have batoned through ~3 inch branches with a Svord Peasant....that's about as linerless as it gets. If you're breaking the pivot while batoning with a knife, you're hitting in the wrong place. You don't beat the pivot, you hit the spine of the blade.

In the end this topic will go in circles indefinitely, but to me it boils down to this: A linerless knife is only as strong as your common sense.

If your knife uses go so far as to break any of the linerless knives that Spyderco make, you probably need to pick a better tool for the job. Just because some other knife can survive the use that would break a Pacific doesn't mean it isn't silly to use a knife for that job. Nobody can dispute people who simply like liners for the warm and fuzzy feel good feeling they get from know they're there, but that doesn't mean linerless knives are inadequate because of it. I would encourage anyone who really feels this way to spend $20 on a Svord and go beat on it a while. Then again, if common sense is lacking that may be too dangerous for some.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David


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