Back Lock lock material

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
GunsandKnives
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:37 pm
Location: NE Ohio

Back Lock lock material

#1

Post by GunsandKnives »

Can anyone tell me the steel used to make the lock on lock backs? Knife I am specifically looking at is the Civilian. Blade is VG-10.

Thank you.
User avatar
Doc Dan
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:25 am
Location: In a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity.

Re: Back Lock lock material

#2

Post by Doc Dan »

I think Sal would tell you that it is 'proprietary' and so it is a secret.

However, you might contact some custom makers and ask the question. Probably over on the knife makers sub-forum on Bladeforums would be a good place.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)

Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)



NRA Life Member
Spydernation 0050
User avatar
The Deacon
Member
Posts: 25717
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Upstate SC, USA
Contact:

Re: Back Lock lock material

#3

Post by The Deacon »

Doc Dan wrote:I think Sal would tell you that it is 'proprietary' and so it is a secret.

However, you might contact some custom makers and ask the question. Probably over on the knife makers sub-forum on Bladeforums would be a good place.
Or, it may be that Spyderco does not specific particular steels for parts other than the blades, just that the steel meets certain requirements. So the maker may have used more than one steel for the lockbar over the production life of a knife that's been in production as long as the VG-10 Civilian.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
User avatar
Stuart Ackerman
Member
Posts: 2080
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:39 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Back Lock lock material

#4

Post by Stuart Ackerman »

Interesting subject...
Last edited by Stuart Ackerman on Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: Back Lock lock material

#5

Post by bearfacedkiller »

On the non stainless steel knives the lock bar is always still stainless. I doubt that the lock bar is ever the same steel. I also do not think that it is a hardened heat treatable steel. It is most likely a high toughness and very low carbon stainless steel that is extremely corrosion resistant. It doesn't have to hold an edge so you can focus on an entirely different group of steels that have the attributes you want.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
User avatar
anagarika
Member
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:59 pm

Re: Back Lock lock material

#6

Post by anagarika »

Interesting discussion on lock bar:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HeXhWAqwqCQ
Chris :spyder:
User avatar
Doc Dan
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:25 am
Location: In a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity.

Re: Back Lock lock material

#7

Post by Doc Dan »

The Deacon wrote:
Doc Dan wrote:I think Sal would tell you that it is 'proprietary' and so it is a secret.

However, you might contact some custom makers and ask the question. Probably over on the knife makers sub-forum on Bladeforums would be a good place.
Or, it may be that Spyderco does not specific particular steels for parts other than the blades, just that the steel meets certain requirements. So the maker may have used more than one steel for the lockbar over the production life of a knife that's been in production as long as the VG-10 Civilian.
Sometime back I asked Sal, here on the forum (or maybe BF) this question about the lock bar steel on the Salt series and he responded that it was proprietary.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)

Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)



NRA Life Member
Spydernation 0050
User avatar
Xplorer
Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Re: Back Lock lock material

#8

Post by Xplorer »

I don't actually know how Spyderco addresses this question or whether or not they do the same thing with every back lock model. I'm very interested to see if we hear from Spyderco about how they actually approach this question.

Here's my 2 cents...I've made a few back-locks recently (dang, they're hard to make..just sayin') and had to figure out the best course of action regarding that very question. After a little trial and a lot of error...then finding out how some of the most experienced custom makers do it, I finally got it working nicely. The main issue of concern with the lock bar is that you don't want the interface between it and the blade to wear on each other. For that reason I chose to use the same steel as the blade and heat treated the lock bar with the exact same protocol as the blade. This worked beautifully.
The lock base (part that holds the spring) is a different story. If the base is as hard as the blade it is likely to break under the load of the spring...ask me how I know :( :D . I used the same steel for the lock base (primarily for corrosion resistance reasons, although another steel could have been used here) but the heat treat protocol for the base was completely different. The target hardness for the base was 53-54 as opposed to the blade and lock bar which were 59-60.

Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
User avatar
awa54
Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:54 am
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

Re: Back Lock lock material

#9

Post by awa54 »

Xplorer wrote:I don't actually know how Spyderco addresses this question or whether or not they do the same thing with every back lock model. I'm very interested to see if we hear from Spyderco about how they actually approach this question.

Here's my 2 cents...I've made a few back-locks recently (dang, they're hard to make..just sayin') and had to figure out the best course of action regarding that very question. After a little trial and a lot of error...then finding out how some of the most experienced custom makers do it, I finally got it working nicely. The main issue of concern with the lock bar is that you don't want the interface between it and the blade to wear on each other. For that reason I chose to use the same steel as the blade and heat treated the lock bar with the exact same protocol as the blade. This worked beautifully.
The lock base (part that holds the spring) is a different story. If the base is as hard as the blade it is likely to break under the load of the spring...ask me how I know :( :D . I used the same steel for the lock base (primarily for corrosion resistance reasons, although another steel could have been used here) but the heat treat protocol for the base was completely different. The target hardness for the base was 53-54 as opposed to the blade and lock bar which were 59-60.

Chad
It sounds like that method would be ideal for most "conventional" steels (VG-10 certainly fits that description) but high carbon steels (assuming you want a maintenance free lock bar), laminates and ultra high hardness or high carbide steels probably won't work as well with a lock bar of the same alloy and HT... I'd assume that in cases like that either a more resilient HT or a tougher/more corrosion resistant alloy would be selected for use with blades that have extreme characteristics.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...
User avatar
Xplorer
Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Re: Back Lock lock material

#10

Post by Xplorer »

awa54 wrote:.... but high carbon steels (assuming you want a maintenance free lock bar), laminates and ultra high hardness or high carbide steels probably won't work as well with a lock bar of the same alloy and HT... I'd assume that in cases like that either a more resilient HT or a tougher/more corrosion resistant alloy would be selected for use with blades that have extreme characteristics.
You bring up a good example of how material selection in a knife design can get complicated. With the types of steel examples you mention the considerations can become more nuanced, mostly for corrosion resistance reasons in this case. Balancing maintenance with wear and other factors gets into the small details of each particular steel. A steel's degree of corrosion resistance, ability to reach a specific HRC, response to H/T variables, toughness vs wear resistance, etc is different for each steel. Each steel choice will bring it's own limitations to the design and there will usually be more than 1 set of variables that will work in the end. Which variables one chooses depends on the designer's priorities with regard the specific trade-offs they face.
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
GunsandKnives
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:37 pm
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Back Lock lock material

#11

Post by GunsandKnives »

I dissambled my Civilian yesterday. There was some staining on the lock bar itself. Not much, but enough to discolor the scale.

It would not be unheard of to use the same steel. HT can be adjusted to the proper characteristics. The 'spring' is a much smaller, round in cross section bet steel connecting the front and back portion of the lock. I would guess that is another steel entirely.

Just curious. Thanks for the input.
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 16964
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Back Lock lock material

#12

Post by sal »

Hi Gunsandknives,

Welcome to our forum.

As mentioned, that's not info that we like to give out. I will say that it depends a lot on the steel in the blade (different steels require different lock materials), the type of lock and interface, and hardness (they're all hardened Darby).

sal
User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: Back Lock lock material

#13

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Thank you Sal. You learn something new everyday! :) Thanks for sharing.

I had read more than once where custom guys had said that they did not harden them but had also read where others had said that they did. I was just speculating based on the different opinions I have heard.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
GunsandKnives
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:37 pm
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Back Lock lock material

#14

Post by GunsandKnives »

Thanks everyone.

Not trying to look up Spyderco's skirt. Just curious. Took it apart, started to look over the parts, trying to determine how they are manufactured, how they interact, etc..I will clean it up with some emery cloth.
User avatar
awa54
Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:54 am
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

Re: Back Lock lock material

#15

Post by awa54 »

Xplorer wrote:
awa54 wrote:.... but high carbon steels (assuming you want a maintenance free lock bar), laminates and ultra high hardness or high carbide steels probably won't work as well with a lock bar of the same alloy and HT... I'd assume that in cases like that either a more resilient HT or a tougher/more corrosion resistant alloy would be selected for use with blades that have extreme characteristics.
You bring up a good example of how material selection in a knife design can get complicated. With the types of steel examples you mention the considerations can become more nuanced, mostly for corrosion resistance reasons in this case. Balancing maintenance with wear and other factors gets into the small details of each particular steel. A steel's degree of corrosion resistance, ability to reach a specific HRC, response to H/T variables, toughness vs wear resistance, etc is different for each steel. Each steel choice will bring it's own limitations to the design and there will usually be more than 1 set of variables that will work in the end. Which variables one chooses depends on the designer's priorities with regard the specific trade-offs they face.
Just imagine ZDP-189 lock bars at Rc 67 :eek:
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...
EnduraNCE
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Back Lock lock material

#16

Post by EnduraNCE »

I’m digging into this and after some inspection.. the lock bar running the 3/4 top of the knife look a lot different when I’m actually looking for difference. Grain isn’t uniform and it’s a good shade lighter/brighter then the ZDP189 blade.

But.. does this lead to issues down the line? Say I’m easy on it but open and close it a lot.. will that insanely hard ZDP189 eventually eat away and weaken the inferior lock?

If someone knows for real it would be nice to put this one to bed. We all wanna know and as far as I can tell we’re going off anecdotal answers from custom knife makers that hang in the forums. I wanna know from an engineer at Spyderco.
Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 2982
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Re: Back Lock lock material

#17

Post by Michael Janich »

Dear EnduraNCE:

Although this is an old thread, the definitive answer, per Sal, is in here and is still the same:

"I will say that it depends a lot on the steel in the blade (different steels require different lock materials), the type of lock and interface, and hardness..."

Stay safe,

Mike
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 16964
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Back Lock lock material

#18

Post by sal »

Hi EnduraNCE,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
Post Reply