Choils on Spyderco Knives: Ups and Downs?

[speedkills]

Hi Speekills,

Michael Janich designed the Yojimbo's so I'll see if he can answer you.

sal

awesome!
what about your design the Mili? and Eric's para and manix?
choil for safety first or just by product

[speedkills]

I have a Question regarding this topic for Sal or anyone in the know. Was the 50/50 choil and the space behind the edge on the Yojimbo designed first and foremost as a safety and finger saver if the lock were to disengage during use. Or was it designed for the choked up grip and the safety benefit is just a great by product of the design? thanks in advance for any thought and input.

Dear Speedkills:

The area between the edge and handle of the Yo 2 was not intended as a 50/50 choil or a "finger saver." It aligns with the release tab of the Compression Lock when the blade is closed and keeps your fingertip from getting bitten by the edge when you close the knife quickly.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike!

[ZrowsN1s]

I was actually just about to post that I thought it had more to do with the placement of the blade in relation to the lock tab....


... than as a finger saver....


...or for use as a choil....

(I never hold it like this)


That being said, I stand by my rule, no finger biters :D

[speedkills]

I was actually just about to post that I thought it had more to do with the placement of the blade in relation to the lock tab....


... than as a finger saver....


...or for use as a choil....

(I never hold it like this)


That being said, I stand by my rule, no finger biters :D

I stand by you on no finger biters!
Now what about the Mili, para and manix? was a safety the first reason for the choil or a by product of a place to choke up?

[speedkills]

I was actually just about to post that I thought it had more to do with the placement of the blade in relation to the lock tab....


... than as a finger saver....


...or for use as a choil....

(I never hold it like this)


That being said, I stand by my rule, no finger biters :D

I stand by you on no finger biters!
Now what about the Mili, para and manix? was a safety the first reason for the choil or a by product of a place to choke up?

[ZrowsN1s]

I don't know, but I'm betting ergonomics was a larger design consideration than finger safety for the PM2. Finger safety is an added (maybe even unintended) benefit of the choil. I didn't buy my first PM2 thinking of finger safety, but it was one of the first things I noticed. Before Spyderco I was a big fan of another knife co, and ALL of their knives are finger bitters. You accidentally close one of those, you could lose a finger. When I discovered that Spyderco knives didn't do that, I knew then and there it was going to be a deciding factor in my future knife purchases.
In a related story of unintended benefits of design, the Emerson "Wave" wasn't designed to be a remote pocket opener, it was designed to be a thumb ramp and blade catch. After making the first few prototypes, they 'discovered' they had invented a new way to open a knife. I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first here, but I sure love omelets :D

[speedkills]

I don't know, but I'm betting ergonomics was a larger design consideration than finger safety for the PM2. Finger safety is an added (maybe even unintended) benefit of the choil. I didn't buy my first PM2 thinking of finger safety, but it was one of the first things I noticed. Before Spyderco I was a big fan of another knife co, and ALL of their knives are finger bitters. You accidentally close one of those, you could lose a finger. When I discovered that Spyderco knives didn't do that, I knew then and there it was going to be a deciding factor in my future knife purchases.
In a related story of unintended benefits of design, the Emerson "Wave" wasn't designed to be a remote pocket opener, it was designed to be a thumb ramp and blade catch. After making the first few prototypes, they 'discovered' they had invented a new way to open a knife. I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first here, but I sure love omelets :D

Great comparison, I heard the Emerson story before how the wave came about by accident. I was always concerned with lock strength then realized instead of worrying about lock strength a safety like a choil is more important. Over the last year I stopped buying any folder that can bite me when it closes, I think every folder should have this feature,I have no problem giving up a little edge knowing my fingers are safe. Regardless of the original intention the golden knives and their choil's are perfect for me!

[sal]

Hi Speekills,

Michael Janich designed the Yojimbo's so I'll see if he can answer you.

sal

awesome!
what about your design the Mili? and Eric's para and manix?
choil for safety first or just by product

Both Eric and I are more about performance. The finger choil allows one to get close to the edge with control. So, Ergos, control, safety.

sal

[speedkills]

Hi Speekills,

Michael Janich designed the Yojimbo's so I'll see if he can answer you.

sal

awesome!
what about your design the Mili? and Eric's para and manix?
choil for safety first or just by product

Both Eric and I are more about performance. The finger choil allows one to get close to the edge with control. So, Ergos, control, safety.

sal

Thanks for the reply. Btw this forum is great, as a long time Spyderco user and collector not sure why it took me so long to get on here, getting replies from you Sal and Mike Janich is awesome! Met you guys a few times at Blade and it has always been a pleasure.

[Bloody Fingerz]

I’m one of the few that wishes all knives had a forward choil for consistency and safety. I tend to be drawn to knives that have them and they tend to find their way into my collection when discovered. The crkt hootenanny and cold steel lawman come to mind. It’s a big factor in my spydie selections as well. I find that if I’m carrying a knife without a forward choil I feel like I’m missing it. I also feel that I use it 90% of the time when it’s on the knife I’m carrying. I’ve never had the feeling that a forward choil was in the way during a cutting task but to be fair, since I’m usually using the choil I wouldn’t notice. This is one of the reasons I’m so pumped about the shaman (which is pre-ordered). It looks perfect for me! I do need to purchase another spydie-pac for storage now.. they fill up fast...

[sal]

Hi Bloody Fingerz,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[gaj999]

I've gotten rid of all my knives with choils, save the Perrin Bowie. That one works for me. I've only got one left with a 50/50 choil, the Super Blue Stretch, and I've been planning to get rid of that. I've been using folding knives for 50 years and have never, ever nicked myself closing one, so I don't get the safety issue. Maybe not getting my hands on a locking folder until I'd been using knives for a long time was good training. My current favorite EDC for in town is the Des Horn, so lack of a choil and/or a guard isn't an issue. It's a brilliant design that looks on paper like it would be both uncomfortable and prone to leaving fingers all over the floor. In hand, it's the opposite. Anyway, as to back locks and the space required, I prefer designs like the Centofante 3 and 4, which give up a little apparent edge/handle ratio and allow me to get my finger close to the edge comfortably. As to the issues with big knives and tip control and tiny knives and grip, it isn't an issue for me. I've found that the sweet spot for me for a folder is a blade around 3 inches. Folders more than a half inch from there just don't end up sticking around and I've quit buying them, although I do like the looks of the Q-ball and might have to waste some time and money playing with it. :)

[speedkills]

I've gotten rid of all my knives with choils, save the Perrin Bowie. That one works for me. I've only got one left with a 50/50 choil, the Super Blue Stretch, and I've been planning to get rid of that. I've been using folding knives for 50 years and have never, ever nicked myself closing one, so I don't get the safety issue. Maybe not getting my hands on a locking folder until I'd been using knives for a long time was good training. My current favorite EDC for in town is the Des Horn, so lack of a choil and/or a guard isn't an issue. It's a brilliant design that looks on paper like it would be both uncomfortable and prone to leaving fingers all over the floor. In hand, it's the opposite. Anyway, as to back locks and the space required, I prefer designs like the Centofante 3 and 4, which give up a little apparent edge/handle ratio and allow me to get my finger close to the edge comfortably. As to the issues with big knives and tip control and tiny knives and grip, it isn't an issue for me. I've found that the sweet spot for me for a folder is a blade around 3 inches. Folders more than a half inch from there just don't end up sticking around and I've quit buying them, although I do like the looks of the Q-ball and might have to waste some time and money playing with it. :)

The safety issue we are referring to is not inexperienced knife users closing the knife and nicking their finger. We are talking the lock failing during use and the blade closing on your index finger and possibly guillotining your finger off. Lot of knife companys are obsessed with lock strength and how much weight the blade can hold and how many spine whacks the knife can take before lock failure. Regardless of how strong the lock is folding knives fold and the best lock can fail. Having a choil though is guaranteed safety that if the lock fails you will not loose a finger. My opinion the choil is much more important then the strength of the lock and I won't own knives in my collection that don't have a choil or finger catch like the yojimbo, delica or endura.

[gaj999]

The safety issue we are referring to is not inexperienced knife users closing the knife and nicking their finger. We are talking the lock failing during use and the blade closing on your index finger and possibly guillotining your finger off.

Gotcha. If lock failure results in you getting cut, you're using the knife improperly. A lock is a safety feature that protects you in the case of misuse, accidental or otherwise. It should never be relied on, no matter how well designed or built. It's just like gun safety - don't point one at anything you'd mind having a hole in, even if you know it's not loaded, the safety is on, and there's a cleaning rod sticking out of the barrel. Why? Because people make mistakes and things fail. This way it takes two mistakes or failures for an injury to happen. If both are unlikely, that reduces the chance of injury to near zero. An example: you accidentally snag the tip on something that places closing force on the blade. You're fine unless the lock fails. That's not likely. If you want to stab things with your knife, buy a knife designed for stabbing things. It might break in half, but it will never, ever fold onto your fingers ...

[ZrowsN1s]

The safety issue we are referring to is not inexperienced knife users closing the knife and nicking their finger. We are talking the lock failing during use and the blade closing on your index finger and possibly guillotining your finger off.

Gotcha. If lock failure results in you getting cut, you're using the knife improperly. A lock is a safety feature that protects you in the case of misuse, accidental or otherwise. It should never be relied on, no matter how well designed or built. ........
This way it takes two mistakes or failures for an injury to happen. If both are unlikely, that reduces the chance of injury to near zero. An example: you accidentally snag the tip on something that places closing force on the blade. You're fine unless the lock fails. That's not likely. If you want to stab things with your knife, buy a knife designed for stabbing things. It might break in half, but it will never, ever fold onto your fingers ...

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that statement.
If lock failure results in you getting cut, that's your fault? I don't really see it that way. (although I suppose if you own a knife capable of biting your fingers when it accidentally closes, maybe it IS your fault on some level if it happens)

Besides the fact that I don't want treating all my knives like slip-joints (that can't take any pressure on the spine of the blade) to be my only saftey from lock failure....
I could sit here all day and think of ways you can fumble opening your knife, ways that a lock can fail to engage fully on opening, or ways you can accidentally 1/2 open your knife (which has happened to me many many times, especially dangerous with knives that have a strong bias towards closing). I have had locks fail and try close on me before as well, locks get dirty, locks wear out. Thankfully (because I am careful) it's never resulted in anything a few bandaids couldn't fix, but I've had enough close calls over 20+ years of owning pocket knives to know how easily and quickly it can happen. I also know that in an emergency when you are moving fast and your attention is divided, the likelyhood of an accident goes way up. I want knives I can depend on in an emergency that I don't have to worry about. I also carry knives for self defense, they need to be reliable.

Expanding on that last self defense point a little, I own many knives designed for "stabbing things" and they most certainly will close on your fingers if the lock fails, which can be a failure to fully open or failure to stay open. I don't care if that failure is due to a defect with the knife, some dirt or lint in the lock, or if it IS 100% my fault... I don't want that failure to result in a sharp blade contacting my fingers. As you pointed out, no lock, no matter how well designed, is immune to failure, a little debris, dirt, mud, grease, ect. in the wrong spot is all it takes. No ones opening and closing technique is immune to failure (especially in an emergency). No ones safe knife handling technique is immune to failure (accidents happen on bright sunny days too). A Slip Joint with no lock at all can still bite your fingers. I've got airbags, but I still wear my seatbelt. Stuff happens.

Before I changed it to "Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal" my signature line was "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.". Instead of trying to never put "closing force" on the blade, or relying on a lock to save my fingers if I do, I prefer a knife that is incapable of closing on my fingers in the first place, regardless of the reliability of the lock or my knife handling technique.

[anycal]

Devil's advocate on the whole safety discussion.

I am fully aware that a finger choil may prevent some type of accident, or decrease a chance of a more serious accident in some circumstances.

That said, even with airbags and seatbelts people die in cars on daily basis. Just like a lock and a finger choil may prevent some minor incidents. But apply enough pressure and that finger will get pushed out of the choil and the blade is coming down. Or, put enough pressure on two pieces of metal (blade and steel liners), and the finger between them doesn't stand a chance.

[ZrowsN1s]

^I agree with you on that anycal. Even seat belts, air bags, and good driving can't save you sometimes, when your numbers up, it's up. If you're gonna drive, it's a risk you take. But I try to give myself every chance and advantage I can by taking precautions and utilizing redundant safety features.

[gaj999]

I feel like we're sort of agreeing but not fully understanding each other. I'll try for some clarification ...

If lock failure results in you getting cut, that's your fault? I don't really see it that way. (although I suppose if you own a knife capable of biting your fingers when it accidentally closes, maybe it IS your fault on some level if it happens)

Yes, it's your fault, but not for owning the knife. Knives are cutting tools and you cut with the sharp part. That means the sharp part is where force is applied. If you're doing anything but cutting with a knife, you're using it wrong. Yes, we sometimes do use knives wrong. We all do. But it should be a calculated risk made with the knowledge that things could go badly wrong very quickly. If the lock happens to fail as you're doing so, it is your fault and not that of the lock maker or anyone else.

Besides the fact that I don't want treating all my knives like slip-joints (that can't take any pressure on the spine of the blade) to be my only saftey from lock failure....

It's not your only safety, but it IS your primary safety. That way, you have to make a mistake in use and then have the lock fail at the same time to get hurt. If you seldom make a mistake and the lock seldom fails, you'll get struck by lightning more often than you get cut that way ... The perfect analogy is the gun safety. "I want a safety so good that I feel comfortable pointing this thing at my mother." Um, really?

I also carry knives for self defense, they need to be reliable.

We're far apart here. I'm realistic enough about my skills to know that if I need a knife for SD, I'm basically screwed. If I really think I might need something, I take a gun. Heck, I'd much rather have a nice stick than a knife if things get crazy.

No ones opening and closing technique is immune to failure (especially in an emergency).

In an emergency, all bets are off, along with your brain. It's all training and muscle memory. As to opening and closing, let's step back a minute. What does a lock have to do with opening technique? Nothing. We all can see that a lock complicates closing technique, actually making it riskier. We're willing to take that extra risk because the lock provides a backup at times when there may be a lot of force on the blade. If safe opening and closing is the top priority, you should buy a slipjoint. Seriously.

Before I changed it to "Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal" my signature line was "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.". Instead of trying to never put "closing force" on the blade, or relying on a lock to save my fingers if I do, I prefer a knife that is incapable of closing on my fingers in the first place, regardless of the reliability of the lock or my knife handling technique.

They make those. Spyderco makes some nice ones. They're called fixed blades. :)

[ZrowsN1s]

I feel like we're sort of agreeing but not fully understanding each other. I'll try for some clarification ...
.... :)

I think we are misunderstanding eachother. I shouldn't have got stuck on who's fault lock failure is. We can agree to disagree or argue that another time. It's a distraction from the point that I don't care who's fault it is, I don't want failure to result in injury. And that I will continue to judge my future knife puchaces with this in mind.

A gun for self defense instead of knife? That's a great idea actually, we agree. As soon as that's legal here I will start carrying. Same with fixed blades, the laws and attitudes are not friendly to them here, and I cant carry a fixed blade or a gun where I work either, so no good. You'll get a laugh out of this, but you're not allowed to carry a wooden stick for self defense here either. A folding knife is as good as it gets for SD in my case, YMMV.

"What does opening have to do with the lock? Nothing." Yes. That's my point, it has to do with the choil. I like the added saftey of a choil no matter what type of lock is being used because sometimes the knife doesn't open all the way and the lock never even engages. A slip joint can half open and accidentally close on you too, there's a spring.
Safe opening and safe closing are a high priority for me, but safe useage is for me as well which rules out slip joints and finger biters for my edc and safety needs(especially for self defense).

[MichaelScott]

Safety. Nothing is 100% safe in life. Choirs? On the Dragonfly (possibly my favorite Spyderco) it is an essential design and use component. On most other knives I like them. While the Delica doesn’t have a choil per se, the long ricasso provides some of a choil's benefits — ability to move the index finger closer to the cutting edge, and protection from the closing blade. Not as ergonometrically comfortable as a true choil though.

I think choils are completely subjective, that is, they are perceived by the user to be a benefit or a detraction from a knife's design, appearance and usefulness. I just received a new Efficient knife. I was on the point of ordering a Persistence when I was reminded of the newer Efficient. Among the factors that tipped my decision to the Efficient was the choil. I think it makes the knife more useful for different cutting tasks.