I Hate Japanese Spydies, Sorry

[The Mastiff]

I couple things I want to note.

About grittiness. When a knife arrives the first thing I do is clean it out with a white paper towel looking to see how much if any buffing compound is on or in the channels of the knife and the tang and what I can reach of the rocker arm if a lock back. If there is some present I clean it off before I do anything else. If you leave it there and apply oil containing a solvent.( most have some in the mixture) The solvent dissolves some of the compound and carries it into the lock mechanism. That is going to give that gritty noise that we dislike but honestly it doesn't do all that much damage. What is worse is too much oil/grease trapping tiny dirt and stone pieces. Around here it's going to be tiny flakes of quartz. Even tiny pieces will scratch the bearing surfaces. That won't make your knife explode like a turbocharger revolving at 18,000 rpm but it still does what it does. The bearing surfaces especially should get attention if longevity is a goal. The reason I use drying spray aerosol lubes with teflon after cleaning the knife.

About Aus 8 being the same as or similar in performance to VG 10? Not really that close in my experience except perhaps in corrosion resistance. Higher wear resistance doesn't necessarily mean that is why VG 10 is a better steel right? Part of the reason maybe. :)

We should know this by now. Higher wear resistance can mean more suitable for certain jobs. It can also be a better steel for my needs or likes but that doesn't mean better steel. I'm not a great ex-plainer but in this case I don't really need to be. It's the difference between opinions and facts.

Joe

[Mikael Andersson]

If AUS-8 is close to VG-10 then AUS-10 must really be some supah-dupah steel. :rolleyes:

[Mikael Andersson]

I really wish we could dispel the "steel hierarchy" myth. For example, it seems to me many people have a rigid mental construct of best to worst stainless steels that might go along the lines of S110V > S90V > M390 > CPM154 > S30V > VG10 > 154CM > 440C > AUS8. I'm just making stuff up, but you get the point.

It's actually: S110V > M390 > CPM-20CV > CTS-204P > S90V > ZDP-189 > S35VN > S30V > VG-10 > CPM 154 > 154CM > 440C > AUS-8

[Bodog]

If they're not performing similarly in the real world then someone screwed the heat treatment up.

[sal]

AUS-10 is closer to VG-10. 20% more carbon than AUS-8.

We have seen somewhat of a hierarchy of steel based on CATRA for abrasion resistance and Q-fog for corrosion resistance.

sal

[awa54]

If they're not performing similarly in the real world then someone screwed the heat treatment up.

I agree that VG-10 and AUS8 are not as different from each other as for example AUS8 and S90V, but they are observably different steels. If you averaged the collective qualities of these two over several quality makers I would wager that the AUS8 is routinely found to be both easier to sharpen using low-tech abrasives and less wear resistant. These qualities may be accounted for by VG-10s additional carbon, chromium, molybdenum and cobalt as compared to AUS8, but then again, maybe not? only a very skilled metallurgist is likely to be able to interpret the interactions of these elements in an alloy by just seeing the composition percentages. Steel graphs are fun, but overrated.

[vivi]

AUS8 also tends to get used in cheaper knives compared to VG10, so the heat treat given to the different steels might not be equal.

[sal]

VG-10 is more expensive to purchase and more expensive to process than AUS-8.

sal

[Raylas]

Can I weigh in with my subjective input?

I've found Spyderco's VG-10 to perform at an equivalent level to 154CM or similar steels. I like it quite a lot, it sharpens very easily but holds an edge very well, and I've found it vastly superior to AUS-8.

Just my experience with it, maybe I keep getting the best heat-treated batch or something, I dunno.

Hey, Sal, quick question while we're on the subject of Japan, if you don't mind. I've noticed most of the steel used in the japanese made knives is actually Japanese steel, like VG-10, H1, the occasional Aogami Sprint, HAP40, and ZDP. Why is that, exactly?

[Bodog]

If they're not performing similarly in the real world then someone screwed the heat treatment up.

I agree that VG-10 and AUS8 are not as different from each other as for example AUS8 and S90V, but they are observably different steels. If you averaged the collective qualities of these two over several quality makers I would wager that the AUS8 is routinely found to be both easier to sharpen using low-tech abrasives and less wear resistant. These qualities may be accounted for by VG-10s additional carbon, chromium, molybdenum and cobalt as compared to AUS8, but then again, maybe not? only a very skilled metallurgist is likely to be able to interpret the interactions of these elements in an alloy by just seeing the composition percentages. Steel graphs are fun, but overrated.

Meh, ime one doesn't obviously outshine the other when putting them to use. I guess in a controlled environment VG10 would likely outperform AUS8 because of the extra .3% carbon and the little bit of cobalt thrown in but that's why Sal has said he likes the mule team project, because results differ from person to person and especially from the lab to the real world. To me AUS8 is to VG10 as VG10 is to 154CM. To me the differences can't be noticed without a controlled test setup unless the heat treatments are done with totally different goals in mind. Noticing the difference between AUS8 at 58 and VG10 at 59 RC would be very difficult for anyone to notice. The carbide volume isn't significantly different, the actual obtainable hardness isn't that different, etc. The real difference may be in the quality of the steel itself, i don't know. VG10 may be more accurately spec'ed with fewer trash elements. I could live with that explanation.

[sal]

Can I weigh in with my subjective input?

I've found Spyderco's VG-10 to perform at an equivalent level to 154CM or similar steels. I like it quite a lot, it sharpens very easily but holds an edge very well, and I've found it vastly superior to AUS-8.

Just my experience with it, maybe I keep getting the best heat-treated batch or something, I dunno.

Hey, Sal, quick question while we're on the subject of Japan, if you don't mind. I've noticed most of the steel used in the japanese made knives is actually Japanese steel, like VG-10, H1, the occasional Aogami Sprint, HAP40, and ZDP. Why is that, exactly?

Hi Raylas,

I agree with you on VG-10 / AUS-8. I can easily tell the difference.

On the steels, shipping steel around the world is quite expensive as is storing it in different countries. The Japanese foundries make very good blade steel and the makers know how to process their own steel through much experience. We're making some knives in Seki with US & Austrian steels, but they cost more.

sal

[Bodog]

Can I weigh in with my subjective input?

I've found Spyderco's VG-10 to perform at an equivalent level to 154CM or similar steels. I like it quite a lot, it sharpens very easily but holds an edge very well, and I've found it vastly superior to AUS-8.

Just my experience with it, maybe I keep getting the best heat-treated batch or something, I dunno.

Hey, Sal, quick question while we're on the subject of Japan, if you don't mind. I've noticed most of the steel used in the japanese made knives is actually Japanese steel, like VG-10, H1, the occasional Aogami Sprint, HAP40, and ZDP. Why is that, exactly?

Hi Raylas,

I agree with you on VG-10 / AUS-8. I can easily tell the difference.

On the steels, shipping steel around the world is quite expensive as is storing it in different countries. The Japanese foundries make very good blade steel and the makers know how to process their own steel through much experience. We're making some knives in Seki with US & Austrian steels, but they cost more.

sal

Lol, come on Sal. If someone could tell a difference it would be an extremely experienced guy like yourself, not us normal people.

[cabfrank]

I might be the least expert person on this forum, but I have been able to easily tell between the AUS-8 and VG-10 that I've had. I think VG-10 is much better. Of course, as others have said above, there could be more differences than just the steel, such as heat treatment, ergos, knife quality, etc.

[twinboysdad]

I pulled up both the D'Allara 3 and Lil Temp 3 today on BHQ and just shook my head. The D'Allara 3 is a nice piece but should be closer to $100 than $200 for sure.

[PaleMoon]

It's actually: S110V > M390 > CPM-20CV > CTS-204P > S90V > ZDP-189 > S35VN > S30V > VG-10 > CPM 154 > 154CM > 440C > AUS-8

I've found Spyderco's VG-10 to perform at an equivalent level to 154CM or similar steels. I like it quite a lot, it sharpens very easily but holds an edge very well, and I've found it vastly superior to AUS-8.

Meh, ime one doesn't obviously outshine the other when putting them to use. I guess in a controlled environment VG10 would likely outperform AUS8 because of the extra .3% carbon and the little bit of cobalt thrown in but that's why Sal has said he likes the mule team project, because results differ from person to person and especially from the lab to the real world. To me AUS8 is to VG10 as VG10 is to 154CM. To me the differences can't be noticed without a controlled test setup unless the heat treatments are done with totally different goals in mind. Noticing the difference between AUS8 at 58 and VG10 at 59 RC would be very difficult for anyone to notice. The carbide volume isn't significantly different, the actual obtainable hardness isn't that different, etc. The real difference may be in the quality of the steel itself, i don't know. VG10 may be more accurately spec'ed with fewer trash elements. I could live with that explanation.

I might be the least expert person on this forum, but I have been able to easily tell between the AUS-8 and VG-10 that I've had. I think VG-10 is much better. Of course, as others have said above, there could be more differences than just the steel, such as heat treatment, ergos, knife quality, etc.

Nevermind, then. You guys can keep your absolutes. I'll be hanging out in the relative corner. Alone

[mastiff]

I think a lot of people misunderstand what my problem was and what I agreed to do about it.

I'll be calling warranty and repair on Tuesday.

I have no problem with the steel, design, FRN, or ergos of the Japanese made knives. I like them a lot and that's why I'm so disappointed.

I'm not condemning a product without giving a company a chance to make it right, I bought 6 folders and that's 6 chances to get it right. More than fair in my estimation. How many people in the world would give anyone or anything that many chances? Honestly, I don't know a single person.

Not a single Japanese made Spydie I bought was from a gun show, ebay, or any other auction site. The Delica was from Amazon, the rest were from BladeHQ, Knifecenter, and National Knives.

A comparable Cold Steel to the Endura 4 would be the Broken Skull if you're looking for a comparison. CTS-XHP steel, DLC coated, G10, and made in Taiwan. $75 to $84 (You can get a deal because of no MAP). The Endura 4 comes in at $72 with no coating, $81 with TiNi. They even come in at close to the same weight CS- 3.1oz Vs Spydie- 3.3oz.

You can't spout MAP as an excuse. They instituted it. They wanted it that way. I've always thought MAP was a good way to shoot yourself in the foot. Benchmade just closed out their H&K line and I wonder if that had anything to do with it? Benchmade guys curse it like it's the devil itself. It hurts little shops the most. They can't afford free bobbles, and free shipping comes at a higher price for them because of volume (instead of $50 or $100 they have to get to $150 sometimes) or isn't available at all. Map takes away their ability to compete by beating the big boys by a few dollars to get the sale.

It's getting fierce out there and I suspect competition next year will be the same or tougher. Companies are upping their game with American made steel (CTS-XHP smokes VG-10 for my uses) and comparable quality at similar prices. Of course they're all following Spyderco's lead.

I still believe that Spyderco makes the best knives and leads all others in taking chances on alloys and designs that most are afraid to even attempt. I'll be speaking with someone in the warranty dept. on Tuesday to see if I can get the Caly rectified. I'll also be buying a Sliverax when it finally comes out as nobody even gets close to Taiwan's attention to detail, fit, and finish.

[cabfrank]

We're all together here, PaleMoon. No absolutes, just opinions. :)

[FCM415]

I might be the least expert person on this forum, but I have been able to easily tell between the AUS-8 and VG-10 that I've had. I think VG-10 is much better. Of course, as others have said above, there could be more differences than just the steel, such as heat treatment, ergos, knife quality, etc.

I may be even less expert than you.

I avoid AUS8 like the plague. Ive owned it in several Cold Steels when they used it extensively, several RAT knives, SOGs back in the day... Like 8cr13mov the edges just die on me by the end of the day performing the most munddane of tasks. I have always wanted to try an Al Mar Ultralight but am put off by the AUS8 and $120 price. Maybe as Bodog suggests, a Japanese Al Mar AUS8 may be HTd properly and can perform similarly to VG10 but Im not willing to pay the entry fee. VG10 is as "low as I go" that I am genuinely happy with. There IS a difference, otherwise I would own a lot of AUS8 knives as I am not much of a steel snob and AUS8 is cheap and common. Ive given all crap away.

[Raylas]

Can I weigh in with my subjective input?

I've found Spyderco's VG-10 to perform at an equivalent level to 154CM or similar steels. I like it quite a lot, it sharpens very easily but holds an edge very well, and I've found it vastly superior to AUS-8.

Just my experience with it, maybe I keep getting the best heat-treated batch or something, I dunno.

Hey, Sal, quick question while we're on the subject of Japan, if you don't mind. I've noticed most of the steel used in the japanese made knives is actually Japanese steel, like VG-10, H1, the occasional Aogami Sprint, HAP40, and ZDP. Why is that, exactly?

Hi Raylas,

I agree with you on VG-10 / AUS-8. I can easily tell the difference.

On the steels, shipping steel around the world is quite expensive as is storing it in different countries. The Japanese foundries make very good blade steel and the makers know how to process their own steel through much experience. We're making some knives in Seki with US & Austrian steels, but they cost more.

sal

I figured it was something like that, makes good sense. Thanks! And yes, they do make very good blade steel. As I said, I like the Japanese offerings.

Thanks for your time Sal, I appreciate it.

[timmy22]

My Japanese Spyderco's (mini-persian, barong, jd smith, kiwi, dragon fly, lum chinese, ouroboros, caly 3.5) all have excellent fit and finish, smooth action and no blade play. I've never had a problem with them and am always amazed at the quality of the Japanese Spyderco's. My Ouroboros is one of the sweetest and smoothest knives from any region or maker out of my collection.