I Hate Japanese Spydies, Sorry

[bearfacedkiller]

The steel thing is all subjective and Joe is right that stating things as objective facts is not helpful to those trying to learn about steels. As Sal often says, "not better, just different". I love Maxamet and Cruwear and many other steels. I also still really enjoy using good old 1095 and other basic carbon steels. In that context VG10 is a good all around highly stainless steel. I have used a Schempp Rock and an orange VG10 Delica as a woods combo quite a bit. Often battoning and carving on seasoned hardwoods. It is tough, very stainless and easy to touch up. I actually really like paring my orange Delica up with a large knife or hatchet when loafing around in the woods doing my thing. In that role it honestly excels for me. No it is not M4 or 10V or whatever crazy steel we all also like but in the right application is very well may be the ideal steel. Whether or not it is premium is largely going to be determined by what qualities are preferred in a steel. It is not low quality, it just isn't super wear resistant.

P.S. Nick, thanks for taking the time to explain. You always have very tactful and polite responses to criticism. :)

[NickShabazz]

Whether or not it is premium is largely going to be determined by what qualities are preferred in a steel. It is not low quality, it just isn't super wear resistant.

Agreed! For my personal life (where a lot of cardboard is vanquished, and I need a keen edge for cutting foams), I find VG-10 dulling more regularly than I'd like, so I've been loving the HAP-40 on the Pakkawood Delica which is rather an upgrade. And for me, I'll favor wear resistance over stain resistance any day. But as you said, there are arguments all around. But naturally, all that disagree with me are dead wrong. :p

And yep, although steel probably more so than most, all of this is subjective. Heck, I review gear, which is about as subjective as it can get in this community. I have very strong opinions, but they stem from my needs, desires, and world view. So anything I say, on my channel, the forum, or any other place, should be taken with the same grain of salt as anybody else. Well, actually, listen to Sal. He knows things.

[dreadpirate]

I like my Japanese Spydies - but - you do have a point. I think there is some credence in your observations. The Caly 3.5 was my first Spyderco and I took it apart and worked on it because the action was gritty when I got it. I wish I had NOT taken it apart. It has been my experience that Spydercos work just fine after a wear in period. That being said; there are other Spydies to choose from if the Jap versions are not your cup of tea.

[Bodog]

I know my opinion matters very little but i find the japanese made spyderco knives to punch far below their weight. The taiwan made knives punch above. I don't want to insult anyone so please dont take it that way but i don't see any reason to spend high prices for Japanese made knives at all. Maybe 40 bucks or so. 60 if it's a steel like ZDP or Hap40. Maybe the multiple brick and mortar stores I've been to have all gotten unlucky in the shipments they've received but most have been inferior to knives made by Cold Steel, etc. And i am by no means a Cold Steel fan.

I often wonder if many of these guys who say they're ok with the Japanese made spydercos are looking at and weighing these knives objectively and comparing them to what else is on the market. It really doesnt make sense to me.

Now to post something which i know people will find contentious but i find it true in my experience no matter how ugly. I don't think there's much of a difference between Japanese made spyderco knives and gas station jarbenzas aside from better steel and better designs and only slightly better QC. Definitely not a big enough difference to jump from $5 spent at a gas station and $100+ at a knife shop for a Japanese made spyderco.

The cheapest knives made by the Chinese factories for spyderco have almost universally impressed me compared to Japanese factory.

I know Spyderco wants to keep the relationship open with a Japanese company for all of the benefits of using Japanese steel so i can't blame them but i wish there was a better end product to justify the cost. Every other factory seems to be able to hit that mark with the exception of a few models made in golden.

I mean no offense guys, just contributing my thoughts for whatever they're worth.

[bh49]

I finally broke down and bought a Native 5. It is a great knife and I feel good plunking my money down on sprints of this refined model.

Why did it take you so long? :) :D :cool: :cool: :cool:

[bh49]

I know my opinion matters very little

I disagree with the most of what you said. But your opinion matters as much as any other member of this Forum.

[twinboysdad]

I finally broke down and bought a Native 5. It is a great knife and I feel good plunking my money down on sprints of this refined model.

Why did it take you so long? :) :D :cool: :cool: :cool:

I am a stubborn bastidge. I came to a point where it was Caly 3.5 vs Native and I always was butt hurt that the Caly 3.5 didn't get all the rad sprints. I finally grabbed one and have had 2. I have the Maxamet in my pocket as we apeak

[FCM415]

Bodog, designs particularly Sal's backlock designs weigh heavily in me continuing on. Like many of you, I can afford anything, but I gravitate and keep going back to Sal's backlocks.

It's also too bad (in general, not just knives) that made in Japan is not and has not been a value proposition anymore. Quite the opposite.

[FCM415]

Oh, and I like FRN so I guess Im the poster boy.

[Eli Chaps]

...

Make a bit more sense? I've edited my original post to clarify this.

With all due respect, I'm not dumb. It made sense the first time around. Adding a price quantifier doesn't really change what I consider the root point, nor does it change your assertion about steel and build quality. You still assert that VG10 is an inferior steel and that Seki City knives are and I quote, "poor quality and poor value." I strongly disagree.

Let's look at your beloved Slysz Bowie. Now see, to me, spending $300 on a drab, heavy brick with a lock that requires me to put my fingers under the blade is a terrible value. Is CTSXHP really that much better than VG10? Really? I wouldn't care if the steel was quenched in unicorn tears, I think that knife is a tremendous waste of money and would feel terribly guilty about buying it, not to mention knowing I wouldn't like the carry of it. But you (and many, many others) think it is near masterful in execution. A tremendous example of what can be done on a large volume production knife. And you know what? That's great! I am sincerely happy that we can find a common passion for sharp things and especially Spyderco sharp things. But in no way does it make either of our choices inferior.

Butcher's knives are, by and large, made from pretty soft steel (routinely down in the low to mid-50's HRC). Why is that? Is it because they are just disposable junk? Or perhaps, there is reason behind it. It's intentional so that as they work they can quickly and easily hone the edge and keep right on going. Do you think they find value in what many would consider "junk" steel?

I've spent this entire year buying several knives of different configurations, steels, locations, etc. I've also greatly expanded my sharpening equipment. My goal was just to learn. What knife do I really love, what steel, what edge? After nearly 50yrs I figured it was time I actually just let the knives talk to me. I bought into the "super" steel hype for a while and I also was **** bent on obtaining some extreme hair whittling sharp edge. But as I've been experimenting and testing and reading and watching and digesting, I'm finding I'm making a slow circle back to where I started. I'm finding that for me VG10 is an excellent choice and highly practical. I'm finding (or more accurately reaffirming) that I really love FRN and dislike G10 and that I love back locks. Basically, I'm finding (or reaffirming) that I love Seki City knives and think they are a tremendous value. I'm however a little surprised that I'm carrying the Dragonfly more than my beloved Delica. :)

But others will assert that H1 or S110V or whatever is their personal favorite and whether that is because of specific needs or just personal likes, it doesn't make any of the choices inferior.

I can buy two Dragonfly 2's and have change for the cost of one Chapparal. In my daily EDC life am I really going to notice such a massive difference between VG10 and CTSXHP? So much so that it is worth the cost of an entire knife? With two Dfly2's I could go a year or maybe more without having to sharpen. Just strop and then grab the other one when the first one finally got dull. Is that inferior? I personally think the Endura is a better value than the PM2. I prefer the FRN, I prefer the back lock, I get more knife and I am not convinced that S30V is somehow superior to VG10. I could buy a Dfly2 and an Endura 4 for the cost of one PM2. That, to me, is a great value.

Again, I'm just happy that there are so many awesome choices to fit everyone's personal tastes and needs. But I sure wouldn't want anyone thinking that I looked down on their choices as inferior or elude to them getting ripped off with their purchase.

[Bodog]

Bodog, designs particularly Sal's backlock designs weigh heavily in me continuing on. Like many of you, I can afford anything, but I gravitate and keep going back to Sal's backlocks.

It's also too bad (in general, not just knives) that made in Japan is not and has not been a value proposition anymore. Quite the opposite.

Without wanting to pick a fight with anyone i chose two knives that are comparable in specs and price. One made by cold steel in taiwan and one made by spyderco in japan. Both backlock mechanisms. Both about 80 bucks. Both about 3.5" blades. Both weigh almost right at 4 ounces with the spyderco being about half an ounce lighter.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel ... ife--15399

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco-S ... ght--50823

The cold steel knife has CTS-XHP and aluminum handles according to the specs listed which may not be accurate. They also used to use AUS8 which imo is close to VG10 in real world performance and they mention that the knife uses AUS8 so it contradicts the given spec sheet.

The spyderco has VG10 and FRN, basically a reinforced plastic.

Looking objectively the Cold Steel knife pulls more weight for the price, especially if the steel is CTS-XHP. I won't really hit on the design as that's a personal decision, but i do like Spyderco designs better in general. I'm also not trying to compare Cold Steel as a company to Spyderco as a company. I like Spyderco. I'm trying to highlight how an extremely similar knife made in Taiwan is a better value than one made in Japan. And to be honest, even though I'm not a fan of Cold Steel, their Taiwan quality control, in my experience, is better than what I've seen coming out of Spyderco's Japanese factory.

It's hard to look and say the Stretch is a better deal overall. I'm sure if Spyderco wanted to they could easily have something that competed directly but they'd have to go somewhere other than Japan to do it. And they have with basically every other factory.

I know that Sal has sais that he doesn't want to burn the bridge to Japan and that they started their mass production in Japan so they're basically paying it forward by continuing operations there but as a customer looking at the nuts and bolts of buying a knife, that doesn't matter to me and i wouldn't recommend to a new knife person to buy a Japanese made Spyderco model.

For whatever that's worth and it ain't much.

[fanglekai]

Bodog, designs particularly Sal's backlock designs weigh heavily in me continuing on. Like many of you, I can afford anything, but I gravitate and keep going back to Sal's backlocks.

It's also too bad (in general, not just knives) that made in Japan is not and has not been a value proposition anymore. Quite the opposite.

Without wanting to pick a fight with anyone i chose two knives that are comparable in specs and price. One made by cold steel in taiwan and one made by spyderco in japan. Both backlock mechanisms. Both about 80 bucks. Both about 3.5" blades. Both weigh almost right at 4 ounces with the spyderco being about half an ounce lighter.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel ... ife--15399

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco-S ... ght--50823

The cold steel knife has CTS-XHP and aluminum handles according to the specs listed which may not be accurate. They also used to use AUS8 which imo is close to VG10 in real world performance and they mention that the knife uses AUS8 so it contradicts the given spec sheet.

The spyderco has VG10 and FRN, basically a reinforced plastic.

Looking objectively the Cold Steel knife pulls more weight for the price, especially if the steel is CTS-XHP. I won't really hit on the design as that's a personal decision, but i do like Spyderco designs better in general. I'm also not trying to compare Cold Steel as a company to Spyderco as a company. I like Spyderco. I'm trying to highlight how an extremely similar knife made in Taiwan is a better value than one made in Japan. And to be honest, even though I'm not a fan of Cold Steel, their Taiwan quality control, in my experience, is better than what I've seen coming out of Spyderco's Japanese factory.

It's hard to look and say the Stretch is a better deal overall. I'm sure if Spyderco wanted to they could easily have something that competed directly but they'd have to go somewhere other than Japan to do it. And they have with basically every other factory.

I know that Sal has sais that he doesn't want to burn the bridge to Japan and that they started their mass production in Japan so they're basically paying it forward by continuing operations there but as a customer looking at the nuts and bolts of buying a knife, that doesn't matter to me and i wouldn't recommend to a new knife person to buy a Japanese made Spyderco model.

For whatever that's worth and it ain't much.

The Code 4 comes in AUS 8 or CTS-XHP. I have the XHP one. I have a Super Blue Stretch and a VG10 Endura 4. I don't think XHP is significantly better than VG10 or S30V. As for FRN vs aluminum, the #1 complaint about the Code 4 is that it has smooth aluminum scales with no traction, which is quite accurate. Aluminum is easy to machine and it weighs more than FRN so it's not really an upgrade. Both the Stretch and Endura have better cutting geometry. They also have better pocket clips. The pocket clip on the Code 4 is pretty awful. I think that's the 2nd most common complaint I've read about it.

In short, I don't see why there's so much hate. These are sub $100 knives. They're cutting tools, not pocket jewelry.

[Midnightrider]

Nothing to see here

[Bodog]

Bodog, designs particularly Sal's backlock designs weigh heavily in me continuing on. Like many of you, I can afford anything, but I gravitate and keep going back to Sal's backlocks.

It's also too bad (in general, not just knives) that made in Japan is not and has not been a value proposition anymore. Quite the opposite.

Without wanting to pick a fight with anyone i chose two knives that are comparable in specs and price. One made by cold steel in taiwan and one made by spyderco in japan. Both backlock mechanisms. Both about 80 bucks. Both about 3.5" blades. Both weigh almost right at 4 ounces with the spyderco being about half an ounce lighter.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel ... ife--15399

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco-S ... ght--50823

The cold steel knife has CTS-XHP and aluminum handles according to the specs listed which may not be accurate. They also used to use AUS8 which imo is close to VG10 in real world performance and they mention that the knife uses AUS8 so it contradicts the given spec sheet.

The spyderco has VG10 and FRN, basically a reinforced plastic.

Looking objectively the Cold Steel knife pulls more weight for the price, especially if the steel is CTS-XHP. I won't really hit on the design as that's a personal decision, but i do like Spyderco designs better in general. I'm also not trying to compare Cold Steel as a company to Spyderco as a company. I like Spyderco. I'm trying to highlight how an extremely similar knife made in Taiwan is a better value than one made in Japan. And to be honest, even though I'm not a fan of Cold Steel, their Taiwan quality control, in my experience, is better than what I've seen coming out of Spyderco's Japanese factory.

It's hard to look and say the Stretch is a better deal overall. I'm sure if Spyderco wanted to they could easily have something that competed directly but they'd have to go somewhere other than Japan to do it. And they have with basically every other factory.

I know that Sal has sais that he doesn't want to burn the bridge to Japan and that they started their mass production in Japan so they're basically paying it forward by continuing operations there but as a customer looking at the nuts and bolts of buying a knife, that doesn't matter to me and i wouldn't recommend to a new knife person to buy a Japanese made Spyderco model.

For whatever that's worth and it ain't much.

The Code 4 comes in AUS 8 or CTS-XHP. I have the XHP one. I have a Super Blue Stretch and a VG10 Endura 4. I don't think XHP is significantly better than VG10 or S30V. As for FRN vs aluminum, the #1 complaint about the Code 4 is that it has smooth aluminum scales with no traction, which is quite accurate. Aluminum is easy to machine and it weighs more than FRN so it's not really an upgrade. Both the Stretch and Endura have better cutting geometry. They also have better pocket clips. The pocket clip on the Code 4 is pretty awful. I think that's the 2nd most common complaint I've read about it.

In short, I don't see why there's so much hate. These are sub $100 knives. They're cutting tools, not pocket jewelry.

If they made the exact same knife in taiwan with 52100 or W2 with better quality control for about $30 less, would you complain?

[FCM415]

Bodog, Cold Steels are nice, good value and as advertised but not my cup of tea. At all. Ive tried believe me hehe. I do have a bat and machete of theirs though.

[FCM415]

Bodog, designs particularly Sal's backlock designs weigh heavily in me continuing on. Like many of you, I can afford anything, but I gravitate and keep going back to Sal's backlocks.

It's also too bad (in general, not just knives) that made in Japan is not and has not been a value proposition anymore. Quite the opposite.

Without wanting to pick a fight with anyone i chose two knives that are comparable in specs and price. One made by cold steel in taiwan and one made by spyderco in japan. Both backlock mechanisms. Both about 80 bucks. Both about 3.5" blades. Both weigh almost right at 4 ounces with the spyderco being about half an ounce lighter.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel ... ife--15399

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco-S ... ght--50823

The cold steel knife has CTS-XHP and aluminum handles according to the specs listed which may not be accurate. They also used to use AUS8 which imo is close to VG10 in real world performance and they mention that the knife uses AUS8 so it contradicts the given spec sheet.

The spyderco has VG10 and FRN, basically a reinforced plastic.

Looking objectively the Cold Steel knife pulls more weight for the price, especially if the steel is CTS-XHP. I won't really hit on the design as that's a personal decision, but i do like Spyderco designs better in general. I'm also not trying to compare Cold Steel as a company to Spyderco as a company. I like Spyderco. I'm trying to highlight how an extremely similar knife made in Taiwan is a better value than one made in Japan. And to be honest, even though I'm not a fan of Cold Steel, their Taiwan quality control, in my experience, is better than what I've seen coming out of Spyderco's Japanese factory.

It's hard to look and say the Stretch is a better deal overall. I'm sure if Spyderco wanted to they could easily have something that competed directly but they'd have to go somewhere other than Japan to do it. And they have with basically every other factory.

I know that Sal has sais that he doesn't want to burn the bridge to Japan and that they started their mass production in Japan so they're basically paying it forward by continuing operations there but as a customer looking at the nuts and bolts of buying a knife, that doesn't matter to me and i wouldn't recommend to a new knife person to buy a Japanese made Spyderco model.

For whatever that's worth and it ain't much.

The Code 4 comes in AUS 8 or CTS-XHP. I have the XHP one. I have a Super Blue Stretch and a VG10 Endura 4. I don't think XHP is significantly better than VG10 or S30V. As for FRN vs aluminum, the #1 complaint about the Code 4 is that it has smooth aluminum scales with no traction, which is quite accurate. Aluminum is easy to machine and it weighs more than FRN so it's not really an upgrade. Both the Stretch and Endura have better cutting geometry. They also have better pocket clips. The pocket clip on the Code 4 is pretty awful. I think that's the 2nd most common complaint I've read about it.

In short, I don't see why there's so much hate. These are sub $100 knives. They're cutting tools, not pocket jewelry.

If they made the exact same knife in taiwan with 52100 or W2 with better quality control for about $30 less, would you complain?

And Im sure that Spydercos Taiwan maker would love to.

There are obviously close ties that bind here so I doubt its gonna be an option. Sal's quoted as saying that models will stay in their country of origin (I asked directly).

Can hope for QC and machining improvement but Japan will continue to be expensive. Im from the Bay Area and can barely afford a 2 night stopover there.

[xceptnl]

With all due respect, I'm not dumb. It made sense the first time around. Adding a price quantifier doesn't really change what I consider the root point, nor does it change your assertion about steel and build quality. You still assert that VG10 is an inferior steel and that Seki City knives are and I quote, "poor quality and poor value." I strongly disagree.

Let's look at your beloved Slysz Bowie. Now see, to me, spending $300 on a drab, heavy brick with a lock that requires me to put my fingers under the blade is a terrible value. Is CTSXHP really that much better than VG10? Really? I wouldn't care if the steel was quenched in unicorn tears, I think that knife is a tremendous waste of money and would feel terribly guilty about buying it, not to mention knowing I wouldn't like the carry of it. But you (and many, many others) think it is near masterful in execution. A tremendous example of what can be done on a large volume production knife. And you know what? That's great! I am sincerely happy that we can find a common passion for sharp things and especially Spyderco sharp things. But in no way does it make either of our choices inferior.

Butcher's knives are by and large made from pretty soft steel (routinely down in the low to mid-50's HRC). Why is that? Is it because they are just disposable junk? Or perhaps, there is reason behind it. It's intentional so that as they work they can quickly and easily hone the edge and keep right on going. Do you think they find value in what many would consider "junk" steel?

I've spent this entire year buying several knives of different configurations, steels, locations, etc. I've also greatly expanded my sharpening equipment. My goal was just to learn. After nearly 50yrs I figured it was time I actually just let the steels and knives talk to me. I bought into the "super" steel hype for a while and I also was **** bent on obtaining some extreme hair whittling sharp edge. But as I've been experimenting and testing and reading and watching and digesting. I'm finding I'm making a slow circle back to where I started. I'm finding that for me VG10 is an excellent choice and highly practical. I'm finding (or more accurately re-affirming) that I really love FRN and dislike G10 and that I love back locks. basically, I'm finding that I love Seki City knives and think they are a tremendous value.....

I agree with this line of thinking. I love my supersteels, and my sprint runs, but most days I just love VG-10. Bottom line it just works for most needs and sharpens easily.

[PaleMoon]

The steel thing is all subjective and Joe is right that stating things as objective facts is not helpful to those trying to learn about steels. As Sal often says, "not better, just different". I love Maxamet and Cruwear and many other steels. I also still really enjoy using good old 1095 and other basic carbon steels. In that context VG10 is a good all around highly stainless steel. I have used a Schempp Rock and an orange VG10 Delica as a woods combo quite a bit. Often battoning and carving on seasoned hardwoods. It is tough, very stainless and easy to touch up. I actually really like paring my orange Delica up with a large knife or hatchet when loafing around in the woods doing my thing. In that role it honestly excels for me. No it is not M4 or 10V or whatever crazy steel we all also like but in the right application is very well may be the ideal steel. Whether or not it is premium is largely going to be determined by what qualities are preferred in a steel. It is not low quality, it just isn't super wear resistant.

P.S. Nick, thanks for taking the time to explain. You always have very tactful and polite responses to criticism. :)

I really wish we could dispel the "steel hierarchy" myth. For example, it seems to me many people have a rigid mental construct of best to worst stainless steels that might go along the lines of S110V > S90V > M390 > CPM154 > S30V > VG10 > 154CM > 440C > AUS8. I'm just making stuff up, but you get the point.

While there's no denying that different compositions will yield vastly different results, I also feel that a lot of it has to do with a combination of placebo, marketing, novelty, etc. Take the example of 52100; many were very excited with the limited sprint runs in that steel and had great experiences using it. Now, put 52100 in a graph with 1095. At first look, it might seem reasonably different, until you notice the scale of that graph; the most abundant element is chromium, clocking in at a whooping 1.6%. Following chromium, the biggest gap for any element between the two is 0.3%. The differences, in most real world applications, would be negligible. But I can guarantee a 1095 sprint run wouldn't have garnered the amount of hype 52100 has, probably for the mere fact that the majority of people were, at the time, more familiar with the former than the latter.

You see the same effect when people talk about AEB-L, and interest seems to wane after someone mentions it's essentially the same as the Sandvik steels used by Kershaw.

It's been noted by many users here that edge geometry and sharpening skill are significantly more important than steel type, and I tend to agree with that. I've pretty much come to a point where, if I buy from Spyderco, I almost only judge a steel on its stainless-ness. In any case, I know the HT and build will be great, and it will serve me well in its intended application.

[awa54]

Guys, Factory grittiness, I am always able to clean out with dawn and a toothbrush. Should we expect no grit etc etc? Up to the individual. [/glow]

Certain quirks mentioned in these threads I can live with or it doesnt even bother me at all.. or I actually prefer, like sharp spyderholes. Being a Sal/backlock design fan, Im happy with Moki and Seki.

If they upgrade generations old facility to Golden or Taiwan level, expect Lexus prices.

This one is a perpetual annoyance to me... ironically it's Taichung and Maniago I have the gripe about, as I have never gotten a gritty Sakai or Moki made Spyderco.

The way I see it, there is no excuse for a *finished* knife to be full of polishing or sharpening grit, it will likely damage pivot smoothness before it "works out" and just makes the knife handle poorly IMO... after all, it's not rocket science to get a knife clean enough that it doesn't feel gritty when it's operated!

I know my opinion matters very little but i find the japanese made spyderco knives to punch far below their weight. The taiwan made knives punch above. I don't want to insult anyone so please dont take it that way but i don't see any reason to spend high prices for Japanese made knives at all. Maybe 40 bucks or so. 60 if it's a steel like ZDP or Hap40. Maybe the multiple brick and mortar stores I've been to have all gotten unlucky in the shipments they've received but most have been inferior to knives made by Cold Steel, etc. And i am by no means a Cold Steel fan.

I often wonder if many of these guys who say they're ok with the Japanese made spydercos are looking at and weighing these knives objectively and comparing them to what else is on the market. It really doesnt make sense to me.

Now to post something which i know people will find contentious but i find it true in my experience no matter how ugly. I don't think there's much of a difference between Japanese made spyderco knives and gas station jarbenzas aside from better steel and better designs and only slightly better QC. Definitely not a big enough difference to jump from $5 spent at a gas station and $100+ at a knife shop for a Japanese made spyderco.

The cheapest knives made by the Chinese factories for spyderco have almost universally impressed me compared to Japanese factory.

I know Spyderco wants to keep the relationship open with a Japanese company for all of the benefits of using Japanese steel so i can't blame them but i wish there was a better end product to justify the cost. Every other factory seems to be able to hit that mark with the exception of a few models made in golden.

I mean no offense guys, just contributing my thoughts for whatever they're worth.

Seriously? comparing a Delica 4 to a Frosts or a Master from a hardware store or truck stop mini-mart?? I think you either need to dial back the hyperbole or become a bit more discerning in your evaluation of what makes a good knife!

I also have a few frustrations with the Japanese made Spydercos I own, but they are few and fairly nit-picky, suffice it to say that the occasional minor lock rock, slight lockbar to tang misalignments, and my SB Stretch having a blade that either opens/closes hard or has significant side to side play depending on which compromise you choose are not going to keep me from buying and respecting the Sakai or Moki knives for their great designs, excellent materials and on the whole competent to above average execution.

We all have different criteria that we judge things by and biases that we may or may not realize are affecting those opinions. If this hobby was strictly about affordability or some ultimate dollar to cutting power equation then central American machetes and Mora knives would long ago have taken over the entire market! We all weigh *our perceptions of* performance, aesthetics, ergonomics and our feelings for a brand and in the end decide how each of us feels about a particular knife... Your opinion may not sway me, but it's the only one that counts for you, so go with it!

**another thing to remember with price comparisons vs. CS or others is that Spyderco MAP means that dealers can't put Spyderco knives out for vanishingly low markup percentages like they can with other brands, so the Spydercos are disadvantaged when it comes to a cost vs. street price battle.

That said, I consider a $60 "basic" Delica a much better buy than my $55 Kershaw Skyline (with its semi-exotic steel, G10 handle and made in USA quality), since the Delica (or even a D'fly for that matter) is a better design for my purposes, plus I carry mine often, compared to very occasional use of the Skyline...

[Raylas]

I've never had an issue with any Japanese made spyderco.

My Oroborous is actually my favorite knife, it's perfection.