Is it worth stropping Spydies? ... and something about Sharpmaker hard stones

[VashHash]

I'm just waiting for my first HAP-40 (a Meerkat) and it deserves the best :cool:

Also, if you want to ease your way into stropping, you can strop a blade on the kind of cardboard/particle board you find on the back of legal notepad. You don't need a leather strop or fancy polish, just a stiff piece of cardboard and a flat surface.

I've used this in the past mostly on serrated edges. They'll tear up a good piece of leather

[Evil D]

... and they end up straightening out a burr instead of dealing with it properly.

That's a huge thing in learning to sharpen properly. The burr/wire edge. That and consistent angles and making sure they actually come together to an edge/apex.

I touch up on a sharpening steel a lot to straighten any rolling between sharpenings. I do this backwards, like stropping. Sometimes I strop, but only a wee bit after I've already gotten it sharp.

There just exists this unrealistic idea that you can remove a burr with a strop and everything is peachy. This was the idea that was presented to me when I first started stropping, and for a while I even believed it but I noticed far more chipping in my edges and less than expected edge retention. I've found that trying my best to avoid creating burrs at all, and then finishing on the ultra fine stones with very light pressure has given me comparable edges that I used to get off a strop, but without the negative effects.

[chuck_roxas45]

There just exists this unrealistic idea that you can remove a burr with a strop and everything is peachy. This was the idea that was presented to me when I first started stropping, and for a while I even believed it but I noticed far more chipping in my edges and less than expected edge retention. I've found that trying my best to avoid creating burrs at all, and then finishing on the ultra fine stones with very light pressure has given me comparable edges that I used to get off a strop, but without the negative effects.

I get sharper edges faster with a fine stone than with a strop. If I can't get a hair splitting edge from a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

I no longer strive for hair whittling edges since they aren't very useful to me these days. However during my dark side days, I'd just get my edges hair whittling on a fine stone and never even thought about cleaning them up on a strop.

[mb1]

I love a good sharpening thread. Always learning stuff from you gents.

[ZrowsN1s]

If I can't touch up an edge with a simple strop and bring it back to razor sharpness any faster than I can with a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

[Evil D]

If I can't touch up an edge with a simple strop and bring it back to razor sharpness any faster than I can with a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

So, just some things to consider.

1) When an edge dulls, the microscopic teeth of the edge get bent over. You can see this under very high magnification. When you strop that same edge, you're bending those teeth straight. If you go and get a metal coat hanger and bend it back and forth, what happens? It breaks. The same thing happen with edge teeth, only far easier than the coat hanger because they're so small and the steel is typically harder and less pliable. This results in poor edge retention and chipping. If you're thinking that stropping compound is enough to properly remove metal and not simply stand up those teeth, then ask yourself...

2) What does a strop and compound do that a high grit stone can't? Consider the surface of a strop, it's full of irregularities and contamination from use, full of contaminated compound, and can't be lapped. By comparison, a stone can be lapped, is far smoother/flatter/more uniform on the surface, and can be cleaned of contamination.


Strops are fine to use if people want to but they aren't better than a stone. People who get sharper edges off a strop would do themselves a favor by evaluating their technique on the stones. I would be more inclined to use a disposable type of strop, like newspaper or index cards so that at least I can start with a new uncontaminated surface each time. Then I would only use them for a few passes at most, the same as you would do with a micro bevel, and only after getting my edge as sharp as possible on the fine stones.

[Carlito86]

I use the ultrafine for stropping. So far so good.

[ZrowsN1s]

If I can't touch up an edge with a simple strop and bring it back to razor sharpness any faster than I can with a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

So, just some things to consider.

1) When an edge dulls, the microscopic teeth of the edge get bent over. You can see this under very high magnification. When you strop that same edge, you're bending those teeth straight. If you go and get a metal coat hanger and bend it back and forth, what happens? It breaks. The same thing happen with edge teeth, only far easier than the coat hanger because they're so small and the steel is typically harder and less pliable. This results in poor edge retention and chipping. If you're thinking that stropping compound is enough to properly remove metal and not simply stand up those teeth, then ask yourself...

2) What does a strop and compound do that a high grit stone can't? Consider the surface of a strop, it's full of irregularities and contamination from use, full of contaminated compound, and can't be lapped. By comparison, a stone can be lapped, is far smoother/flatter/more uniform on the surface, and can be cleaned of contamination.


Strops are fine to use if people want to but they aren't better than a stone. People who get sharper edges off a strop would do themselves a favor by evaluating their technique on the stones. I would be more inclined to use a disposable type of strop, like newspaper or index cards so that at least I can start with a new uncontaminated surface each time. Then I would only use them for a few passes at most, the same as you would do with a micro bevel, and only after getting my edge as sharp as possible on the fine stones.

Respectfully, you should read these articles. They much better explain than I can what you can do with a pasted strop vs. a fine stone, as well as the purpose of stropping. The Scanning Electron Microscope pictures really take the speculation out of it. Oversimplified, stropping makes knives sharper by reducing the width of the apex while leaving the width just behind the apex undiminished, or by "micro-convexing". There is no practical flat plane edge you can make with a stone that can't be made sharper by micro-convexing it slightly on a pasted strop. But beyond the effect of micro-convexing reducing the actual width of the apex (making it mathematically and measurably sharper), compare the cost of a leather strop with .25 micron paste VS. a .25 micron water $tone :eek:, and there's another reason . Or the ease of using a piece of cardboard instead breaking out your sharpening gear to simply touch up an edge is another reason. Why use stones when cardboard gets it razor sharp again? BTW I also DO clean my pasted strops, it's paste, it rubs of with a clean towel and a little elbow grease Then put fresh paste on it.

Anyways check out these pages if you haven't seen them before, there is a TON of useful info. RLDubbya :spyder: showed me these a while back, Science of Sharp:
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... opping-do/
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... op-part-1/
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... op-part-2/
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... op-part-3/
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... op-part-4/

[Surfingringo]

Interesting discussion on the strops. My feelings lean mostly towards the points that David makes. I think that a lot (or at least some) folks strop to compensate for sloppy sharpening technique. One thing that leads me to believe this are the numerous posts I have read by folks saying they could not get a certain steel to shaving sharp until they stropped it with some compound. That's not the best use of a strop IMO and I think those folks would be better served perfecting their sharpening technique than using a strop as a crutch. (And yes, I am aware that what I think about how someone else sharpens their knife is super important!!) :rolleyes: :p

Anyway, that doesn't mean that stropping a knife is without merit and it certainly doesn't mean that I am grouping everyone that uses strops into that category. I would agree with Zrown that just about any edge created on a stone can be taken to a slightly higher level of sharpness (width and regularity of apex) on a strop but I would disagree that it is in some way easier than sharpening on a stone. I can bring a well used edge back to shaving sharp in 10-20 seconds on ceramics. How much time could I be saving by using strops instead?? And as far as level of sharpness, yes, I would agree that a strop can help you to get to the highest levels of "sharp" but man, I can get most steels to whittle hair off of the medium stones on the sharpmaker. Take it through the fines and UF and I can make feathersticks out of one of my fine hairs. What is it that I would be trying to achieve with a strop from there?

[Evil D]

Respectfully, you should read these articles.

I'm not so much debating that a strop won't make a sharp knife sharper, though I do believe I can get one sharp enough on stones that the difference is going to be really difficult to see. What I know for certain is that a strop is a piss poor way to remove a burr, and too many people use them as a crutch, then come here and complain about poor edge retention and chipping. Whether or not a strop can make an already very sharp, properly apexed edge even sharper is something I'd believe, but I feel that the vast majority of the time it's the latter. I also don't believe in maintaining an edge with a strop, because of the bending of the teeth issue. A dull edge is a dull edge and it needs to be removed and apexed again.

[Jazz]

I respectfully think stropping to a shine is only good for woodcarving knives and razors. Otherwise, those shiny edges are just for show. Micro teeth are good, and when you learn to sharpen properly, you can shave just fine from a stone. I'll also add, I'm sure glad I finally learned to sharpen quite well. Well worth all the years of practice.

[chuck_roxas45]

If I can't touch up an edge with a simple strop and bring it back to razor sharpness any faster than I can with a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

If you're just as fast with a strop as a fine stone, then why waste time on the strop? Didn't you mention that you couldn't get shaving sharp off the stone? It probably also depends on how dull your knife is when you start. If you can't get hair whittling from a stone, your technique is lacking,no two ways about it.

It's just simple unassailable logic. If people can get hair whittling off a stone and you can't, then that's it right there no matter what verbal gymnastics you perform. :)

Respectfully, you should read these articles.

I'm not so much debating that a strop won't make a sharp knife sharper, though I do believe I can get one sharp enough on stones that the difference is going to be really difficult to see. What I know for certain is that a strop is a piss poor way to remove a burr, and too many people use them as a crutch, then come here and complain about poor edge retention and chipping. Whether or not a strop can make an already very sharp, properly apexed edge even sharper is something I'd believe, but I feel that the vast majority of the time it's the latter. I also don't believe in maintaining an edge with a strop, because of the bending of the teeth issue. A dull edge is a dull edge and it needs to be removed and apexed again.

I won't even go to hair whittling sharp off the stones anymore, what do I need to strop for even if it gets it infinitesimally sharper.

I do agree with you that a strop is often a crutch. I still say that technique is lacking if you can't get an edge sharp enough from the stones.

[ZrowsN1s]

Respectfully, you should read these articles.

I'm not so much debating that a strop won't make a sharp knife sharper, though I do believe I can get one sharp enough on stones that the difference is going to be really difficult to see. What I know for certain is that a strop is a piss poor way to remove a burr, and too many people use them as a crutch, then come here and complain about poor edge retention and chipping. Whether or not a strop can make an already very sharp, properly apexed edge even sharper is something I'd believe, but I feel that the vast majority of the time it's the latter. I also don't believe in maintaining an edge with a strop, because of the bending of the teeth issue. A dull edge is a dull edge and it needs to be removed and apexed again.

That's a fair point.

[ZrowsN1s]

If I can't touch up an edge with a simple strop and bring it back to razor sharpness any faster than I can with a fine stone, then my technique is lacking.

If you're just as fast with a strop as a fine stone, then why waste time on the strop? Didn't you mention that you couldn't get shaving sharp off the stone? It probably also depends on how dull your knife is when you start. If you can't get hair whittling from a stone, your technique is lacking,no two ways about it.

It's just simple unassailable logic. If people can get hair whittling off a stone and you can't, then that's it right there no matter what verbal gymnastics you perform. :)

Yes Chuck I can get it hair splitting off of the stones AND I can get it even sharper off of the strops afterwards. I can touch up an edge faster with stropping on cardboard than I can by getting out my sharpening gear, why is that so hard for you to follow? There is no edge you can put on a knife with a stone that you can't reduce the apex of by stropping. When your knife gets dull you need to use a stone to get it razor sharp again, and I only need a piece of cardboard. It's cool I get it, if you're happy with a knife that isn't sharpened to it's maximum potential or if you just like needlessly removing steel to get your knife sharp that's your business. :rolleyes:

Let me put it a different way, we both sharpen our knives to a hair splitting 20 degree inclusive edge, I strop my knife on a pasted strop afterwards and you don't, I have now reduced the width of the apex, while yours remains the same width... my knife is now sharper than yours. Get it? Or are you "unassailed "? You say you don't even bother to get your knives razor sharp anymore, you sure your technique isn't just slipping?

[Bloke]

What I'd like to ask is what constitutes a 'Strop'?

When does the grinding stop and the stropping begin? :confused:

I've stropped on my denuded left forearm, my palm, my jeans, newspaper, cardboard, granite, glass, vinyl, clean leather, leather with compound, balsa, balsa with diamond paste ... and no doubt stuff I can't remember. I've even tried to strop on the cat! :rolleyes:

Is the palm of my hand a strop?

Is the flat piece of balsa wood that I pushed diamond paste into on a sheet of glass a strop?

[ZrowsN1s]

What I'd like to ask is what constitutes a 'Strop'?

When does the grinding stop and the stropping begin? :confused:

I've stropped on my denuded left forearm, my palm, my jeans, newspaper, cardboard, granite, glass, vinyl, clean leather, leather with compound, balsa, balsa with diamond paste ... and no doubt stuff I can't remember. I've even tried to strop on the cat! :rolleyes:

Is the palm of my hand a strop?

Is the flat piece of balsa wood that I pushed diamond paste into on a sheet of glass a strop?

That is actually an excellent question. Here is an article on different strop mediums, and why stropping on denim is so effective.
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... op-part-4/ :D

*I've use rolls of paper towels to finish stropping on ocassion, seems to add a little something.

Here's a nice quick and dirty guide to basic sharpening with a diamond stick and stropping with cardboard from Ernest Emerson, he uses chisel edges on his knives but you'll get the idea.
https://emersonknives.com/blog/sharpening-your-emerson/
I'm sure I've posted this in another thread, but it's worth reposting expert advice (IMHO)

[chuck_roxas45]

Yes Chuck I can get it hair splitting off of the stones AND I can get it even sharper off of the strops afterwards. I can touch up an edge faster with stropping on cardboard than I can by getting out my sharpening gear, why is that so hard for you to follow? There is no edge you can put on a knife with a stone that you can't reduce the apex of by stropping. When your knife gets dull you need to use a stone to get it razor sharp again, and I only need a piece of cardboard. It's cool I get it, if you're happy with a knife that isn't sharpened to it's maximum potential or if you just like needlessly removing steel to get your knife sharp that's your business. :rolleyes:

Let me put it a different way, we both sharpen our knives to a hair splitting 20 degree inclusive edge, I strop my knife on a pasted strop afterwards and you don't, I have now reduced the width of the apex, while yours remains the same width... my knife is now sharper than yours. Get it? Or are you "unassailed "? You say you don't even bother to get your knives razor sharp anymore, you sure your technique isn't just slipping?

Didn't you mention earlier that you stropped because you were barely shaving off the stones?

I don't carry a knife that's hair whittling because that edge is basically gone after a couple cuts. I never said I didn't carry a razor sharp knife. My knife shaves effortlessly with a 600 grit edge. Finer finish than that and it dulls fast for me.

If you like carrying a knife that splits hairs, then good for you but that edge is not much use for me.

I get it that you're tickled pink with your sharpening skills for now. I sure was when I carried hair splitting edges before and delighted in showing off to my friends. I actually argued as much as you for a super fine edge then. After a few years of really using my knife for work, I realized that the more experienced guys were right and my tastes slowly evolved.

If I did carry a knife just for opening packages and showing off, I still would be carrying hair splitting edges. And touching up every time I get home. All I need for my knives to do is to cut what needs to be cut and not to dull too quickly that I have to touch up every time I cut some paper with it.

A year at the farm and that cured me of super fine edges. A couple of years hanging out in an auto shop(opening up dirty cardboard boxes of parts) convinced me even more how much better for me coarser edges are. Another few years of stripping wires and cables confirmed my preference.

What you don't seem to realize is that guys much more experienced that you and me, have gone down the path you're going and have changed their preferences. What you don't seem to be following is that I too have been down that path and changed my tune.

I am not trying to change anybody's mind here(has that ever happened in an internet discussion...) but trying to present what I have discovered in my experience. As mentioned earlier, it's not just me who've been down this road.

it would be nice to discuss things in a civil manner because each one of your posts has some button pushing and a lot of snark but I guess that's too much to ask from you since you seem to be a guy that can't abide a viewpoint different from yours.

[anagarika]

I'm far from expert as I don't achieve hair splitting off my stone regularly. Not even when stropping :o

What is the experts opinion on our brother Unit (Ken) stropping here? I don't look for praise or condemnation, but what do you think happen here and pros/cons doing the same?
https://youtu.be/xb6gspa_kpM

[Jumpin'Spyder]

WOW!!! What more I need to say...from a simple question come out a "Sharpening and Stropping Spyderco Encyclopedia" :eek: :eek: :eek:
You Forum people don't stop to surprise me...again: GREAT thread, I'm learning a lot and I think a lot of people do the same.

Thank you and thanks to Sal for let us have this unbeliavable FORUM :spyder: :spyder: :spyder:

[Eli Chaps]

Well, for the most part, I strop most all my knives. From pocket to kitchen, I generally run them across a piece of leather of some kind.

One of the reasons I love VG10 and am warming up to BD1, is how easy and fast it is to maintain with a strop. People can tell me I have sloppy technique or debate the finer points of the edge all day, but my knives cut exceptionally well and accomplish all the tasks I ask of them. I rarely have to sharpen a knife so my long-term edge retention is more than adequate for my needs. Now, can I get that same thing from a stone alone? Sure I can and lots of people for many years have debated the idea that there is no need to strop coming off say a very fine Arkansas whet stone for example.

That's awesome! But, that doesn't make it gospel and/or concrete any more than the use of strops are, uh hum, a set in stone method.

I chased that ultra-fine edge for a long time and started investing a fair amount of time and money in my growing obsession. Then one day I realized that for the most part, that was just a hobby for me, a fascination, a challenge. It really wasn't practically necessary, at least for my needs. When we consider that most folks have very limited sharpening skills and are really just looking for edges that cut, I think it is more important to focus them on fundamentals and less on the more obsessive details. I'm not knocking the details, believe me I am not and I still chase that dragon around, I'm just putting it in some type of context that I have grown to view it. Generally, people care if their pocket knife can cut their apple at lunch, not that it can cut 3000 feet of cardboard in a day.

If you want to strop, strop. If you don't, don't. The key is to have a shaving sharp knife on the lowest grit stone you use. Then refine that edge to whatever extent and by whatever method you choose. I just think that stropping is pretty easy for most folks and if nothing else, a good way to start realizing how nice it is to have a very sharp, refined edge.