Phil Wilson Thoughts on Steels

[RLDubbya]

Agree, disagree - doesn't matter. The articles are thought provoking. I like the fact that they move beyond the realm of cutting cardboard.

Keep in mind: they are not gospel, just Phil Wilson's views. Definitely worth reading, digesting, and reading again.

[NickShabazz]

Could you link us to the articles? Sounds interesting!

[RLDubbya]

Could you link us to the articles? Sounds interesting!

Apparently not, as I thought I had; moreover, that was the entire point of my post. My puktarditude just dwarfs all which I encounter.

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles.htm

In my defense: I haven't slept for a few days now because of severe pain and in spite of a hefy morphine - dilaudid - methadone cocktail. The pain is just too intense. Last night, I laid down, and within 15 minutes or so I was screaming in agony. I had to get up and go into my home office so that at least my wife could sleep.

This morning, I started my day. I was standing in front of the computer, and suddenly I wasn't. I fell asleep standing there, and hit the deck.

Enjoy the articles.

[The Mastiff]

I can attest to the extremely high performance Phil gets out of whichever steel he is working on. His heat treats are designed to get all the performance out of the alloy he can. There are only a handful of cutlers that do what he does. It's not about shiny stuff and frills and he doesn't spend more time wringing money out of his customers than performance out of his blades.

Big Chris is another cutler who is more about high performing steel than mirror finished art knives.Both of them asked me for input on heat treat, final hardness etc. Great experiences compared to some custom makers I've purchased knives from.

[ZrowsN1s]

Agree, disagree - doesn't matter. The articles are thought provoking. I like the fact that they move beyond the realm of cutting cardboard.

Keep in mind: they are not gospel, just Phil Wilson's views. Definitely worth reading, digesting, and reading again.

Great articles RLDubbya, I enjoyed the one on impact toughness the "charpy" values. I learned something new, thanks :spyder:

[p_atrick]

Thanks for the link. The stuff on S30V is fascinating.

[wrdwrght]

Interesting that S30V was intended at first to have 3V's composition plus just enough extra chromium for corrosion resistance, but not carbide formation.

Evidently, when making a change in one part of a steel's recipe, the recipe's other parts can't be kept equal. There won't be an S30V Tuff that is as tough as the 3V one...

[Tdog]

Thanks RL, I had previously read this, but always good to refresh on Phil's thoughts about steel and knives. He definitely is in the know. I can hear the difference/hardness in heat treat when I sharpen my Punta Chivato in CPM154.

[StuntZombie]

Interesting that he recommends Silicon Carbide stones for initial resharpening, and either diamond or ceramic for finishing. I wouldn't think the SC stone would be hard enough to have an effect on higher carbide steels.

Or am I getting them mixed up with Arkansas stones?

[RLDubbya]

If you haven't done so, can you please take a moment and what was your biggest takeaway or two from the articles?

For me, it was the fact that a) Many of our tests for capability of steel are severely flawed, either in concept or execution b) The performance of many of our "inferior" and "outdated" steels is absolutely fine in the real world; c) as we evaluate the suitability of a steel for a given task, we should include as a criterion of success factors such as required frequency and difficulty performing touch up sharpening, and finally one of biggest takeaways was that we are doing all this testing for the suitability of steel, and we include "sharpness" as a key evaluative factor, but sharpness is quite "relative" and it is not well defined.

[FCM415]

I can attest to the extremely high performance Phil gets out of whichever steel he is working on. His heat treats are designed to get all the performance out of the alloy he can. There are only a handful of cutlers that do what he does. It's not about shiny stuff and frills and he doesn't spend more time wringing money out of his customers than performance out of his blades.

Big Chris is another cutler who is more about high performing steel than mirror finished art knives.Both of them asked me for input on heat treat, final hardness etc. Great experiences compared to some custom makers I've purchased knives from.

Well said.

[p_atrick]

The performance of many of our "inferior" and "outdated" steels is absolutely fine in the real world...

Moreover, I think the problem is that there is a tremendous amount of groupthink when it comes to certain parts of the knife world. As a newcomer myself, I get swept up in the idea that S30V is outdated and somehow lacking. In fact, I've been advocating some sprint run PM2's in either RWL34 or AEB-L. Why? Because my PM2 got lost in the mail. As I consider about buying a new one, I can't help but think, "well S30V has been around a while so it is not as good as some of the others." And there are plenty of people out there on forums who will lend credence to this idea, and I believe them because I am new. So it doesn't take long for people to sour on S30V. After reading that article, I don't think I can be so flippant about S30V or steels in general.

[me2]

I was a little put off to see an error in the basic heat treating article. Carbides don't form during the high heat cycle when austenizing. I think it's most likely a typo.

[RLDubbya]

The performance of many of our "inferior" and "outdated" steels is absolutely fine in the real world...

Moreover, I think the problem is that there is a tremendous amount of groupthink when it comes to certain parts of the knife world. As a newcomer myself, I get swept up in the idea that S30V is outdated and somehow lacking. In fact, I've been advocating some sprint run PM2's in either RWL34 or AEB-L. Why? Because my PM2 got lost in the mail. As I consider about buying a new one, I can't help but think, "well S30V has been around a while so it is not as good as some of the others." And there are plenty of people out there on forums who will lend credence to this idea, and I believe them because I am new. So it doesn't take long for people to sour on S30V. After reading that article, I don't think I can be so flippant about S30V or steels in general.

Yep. Absolutely, positively, no question, without a doubt new steels are important. I never claimed otherwise; if I claim otherwise in the future, please smack me in the testicles with a baseball bat to get my attention and then explain things again, speaking slowly, because I've obviously gone full idiot and can't listen that fast.

However: there are other qualities in a knife which are more important. We (collectively, as a population falling victim to that groupthink) generally ignore basic principles of epistemology - that is, what counts as good, solid, scientific knowledge attained through the careful application of the scientific method. We also value sophomorphisms over sound logic. I've noticed that, for example, in a debate on a forum (and I'm going to keep my example topical) a carefully constructed argument in favor of lockbacks loses to the single terse statement "Liner locks are better in all situations, any idiot knows that" if uttered by The ApostleD.

This is a pet peeve of mine; I've completed all coursework for my PhD in philosophy, specializing in mathematical logic, space-time theory, and the scientific method. When I witness some of the travesties that quite vocally are claimed as "merely commonsense" I alternate between wanting to pluck out my eyeballs so I can never see that I never see such garbage again, and throwing my computer out the third floor window and seeing how many rounds I can get off with my 12Ga before contact with the ground is made.

What really chaps my bung about this is that I absolutely know which argument is good and which bad. I also know that if I say anything, I will get shouted down 98% of the time.

[RLDubbya]

I was a little put off to see an error in the basic heat treating article. Carbides don't form during the high heat cycle when austenizing. I think it's most likely a typo.

This would seem to be appropriate to insert right about now:

"Citations please."

//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... 7#p1130587

[me2]

The article "A quick lesson on heart treating" Step 2 second sentence.

Citation for the opposite being the case? Verhoevens book for bladesmiths in the chapter on austenization. Steel has a higher carbide volume in the annealed condition. Austenizing steel dissolves the carbides, freeing carbon to allow quenching to harden the steel. The metal portion of the carbide also is free to perform other functions besides make carbides, such as chromium to increase corrosion resistance.

High wear steels have more carbide than can be dissolved, but some has to or the steel won't harden.

[Hardbawl]

Thanks for sharing this link. As a new forum member and only owning 2 Spyderco knives, I asked for Forum help understanding CPM S30V. Your link really helped me answer my curiosity. The knife I bought is only available in CPM S30V. I am a southpaw who bought a PM2 which comes with a dominate hand specific lock. In my [never to be humble] opinion my left hand PM2 is the closest thing to a perfect EDC made today. I am glad to see that Spyderco picked a perfectly great steel for the blade. Appreciate what I learned from your post. Thanks.......Hardbawl

[DougC-3]

Thanks for the Phil Wilson articles. I've only been an afi for 4 years or so, and have gotten almost all of my information from this forum without trying to delve too deeply into the metallurgical aspects of the blade steel alphabet soup. So these articles provide some background underpinnings that help me make sense of things. I especially liked the discussions of S90V and S30V. Also, the more recent information in the Metals section of his General Information page about S110V, S125V, V10, and BM K390 explained a lot about the relationships of these metals from a practical standpoint which can inform our buying choices with reference to use as well as sharpening. (My brother was a metallurgical engineer for the USBM but unfortunately died about 15 years ago, long before I became a spydophile.)

Speaking of S90V, Mr. Wilson said, "...cutting ability and edge holding do not necessarily correlate directly with hardness on the CPM steels. The very high percentage of finely dispersed hard carbides do most of the cutting work." He said this in the context of the earlier idea that S90V should probably be used at lower hardness to prevent chipping, but later, in 2006, he said the toughness was adequate for a working knife even with a hardness of Rockwell 60 to 61. I'll have to dig a little deeper to see if I can come up with any justification for my notion that I like S90V better than S110V. That's one of my excuses for the fact that a couple of hours ago I ordered a Blurple S110V Manix2 to compare to my much liked S90V Manix2 XL.

[RLDubbya]

Thanks for the Phil Wilson articles.

<snip, cut>

I'll have to dig a little deeper to see if I can come up with any justification for my notion that I like S90V better than S110V. That's one of my excuses for the fact that a couple of hours ago I ordered a Blurple S110V Manix2 to compare to my much liked S90V Manix2 XL.

You are welcome.

I think you just need to send that Manix XL in S90V to me, and I'll use it for a couple years, returning it with a full write-up comparing it to an S110V Manix. I would do this at no charge to you in the interest of science. Drop me a PM for my address.

[wrdwrght]

I've been carrying my S90V Manix2 XL this past week and doing some yard work with it (my Tasman Salt still rules out there).

Figured I need to carry a bigger knife so I'm not shocked when the Police4 finally comes to hand.

Rather than use a box cutter (my usual tool) for all that awaits me in the garage, I think I'll use the Manix so I have a reason to sharpen it...