Para 2 as EDDC

[ZrowsN1s]

carry something whose main purpose is for self defense

Thanks Alex.

[youmakemehole]

Where to even begin to answer that? You seem to have some personal hang ups that you need to sort out on your own, or not. I would only again encourage you to check out the people I listed in depth. You'll find a surprising number of your issues addressed. From learning avoidance and empty handed skills, to non-lethality with a knife.

Check out the instructors backrounds, who their students are, and decide then if they are just padding their pockets by selling fantasy.

I won't be so rude as to call it delusional but when I think about what's likely to save you when someone really wants to do you or your family harm and you are attacked violently, words and peper spray don't really cut it.

http://shivworks.com/edged-weapon-overview/
https://www.staysafemedia.com/
https://emersonknives.com/training-cent ... t-systems/

I can promise you I'm not one to respond to someone without understanding exactly where they are coming from, I've watched a lot of those videos, because trust me I used to think it was a very useful skill set as well. I've watched a bunch of MBC, Craig Douglas, karambit stuff, stick training stuff, disarming stuff, I still watch them today, solely for entertainment. I think what I'm trying to say is that the idea it gives you that you are now much more prepared to confront danger is just very dangerous itself. Avoidance is the most important thing, even when it comes to home defense.

Also, if you are defending your family against an armed intruder, if you understand the psychology of individuals who would do that, you would be facing either a psychopathic serial killer/kidnapper, or a heavily trained "mercenary" level individual or team who knows what they are doing. Unless you are a high value target the latter seems improbable. Also, if they are trained soldiers/mercenaries, you would probably want to surrender no matter how well you have trained. The reason why these armed intruders will not be your average thief or burglar, is because those types of people do not want confrontation, they will flee your home at the slightest sound or indication of life inside of it. Now in the case of a psychotic serial killer/kidnapper, mind you, we are talking about excruciatingly slim odds here now... you would definitely want to have at least some firearm, as you don't want to discount your ability for stopping power against some crazy if at all possible. You'd want something like a 12 gauge or 9mm here. If you had the means to, you would've picked the safest location to house your family if safety was your #1 concern though, and I can guarantee you there are many many areas in every state where the probability of a break in will be virtually 0% even over several decades. And again, I'm not doubting the ability of these trainers or the effectiveness of their lessons and equipment. The point is that they are great and effective for situations that will NEVER happen if you are SMART. People who go through those trainings come out with a newfound zeal to stupidly create those types of bad situations for themselves... I am speaking against that my brotha.

edit: Not to neglect talking about the power of words here - if you or your family was put in a hostage situation, say for your money or assets, words can definitely make a far greater impact on reducing the net physical harm that would occur than whatever amount of stopping power you have at your disposal. Unless you have extensively trained and run live fire drills inside your house many times, you don't know if you really have the skill or capability to know exactly how to maneuver and shoot in your home as to eliminate the chances of collateral damage, aka shooting and perhaps killing your own wife and children. You might also be surprised at how effective a big can of bear mace can be. I've heard stories of many successful home invasions that involved no more than a can of bear mace and perhaps a taser or a bat. Also as far as weapons go, any proper instructor will tell you that the advantage of longer range vs shorter range is way more significant than the advantage of edged weapons vs impact weapons. Anyone who knows any slightest thing about SD will take a baseball bat over a pocket folder, I can promise that~

[ZrowsN1s]

Bats and knives are both close quarters weapons. If you're close enough to hit someone with a bat, they are close enough to stab you. I'd take a knife over a bat all day every day. I'm not an expert by ANY stretch, nor do I fancy myself some kind of "badass" but I do know the "slightest thing" about self defense and I've studied a handful of different disciplines in my 40 years.

Psychology, avoidance, talking... are not useless. I've studied them all quite a bit. If I'm considering using a knife, words have failed and the situation is past talking or avoiding, and a gun is unavailable.

Home invasions, and hot prowling are not uncommon where I live. Nor muggings, attacks by drugged or crazed individuals, stabbings, shootings, etc.... I've twice found myself in a situation that while I ultimately avoided physical confrontation, it could have EASILY gone the other way. And both times I was glad the option of defense was available to me and I wasn't at the mercy of scumbags.

A gun is always the best choice for defense (even in my home where I have a 12guage I don't carry it around the house, I always have a knife on me). A knife is second. Pepper spray, bear mace, and bats aren't useless, but have you ever encountered someone high out of their skull on drugs or mentally unstable? Have you ever watched videos of people being tased, hit repeatedly with batons, or pepper spray that has little or no effect on them and doesn't seem to slow them down or stop them at all?

With a knife you can sever a bicep, you can cut a quad. It doesn't matter how high or crazed they are, or if they even feel it. If they can't use their arm or leg they can't hurt you or your family. Limb targeting is the main focus of the knife training I prefer (staysafemedia), it's non leathal and effective at stopping threats.

I will always try avoidance and reason first, but if those fail, and my gun is unavailable, my folding knife is my next best defense. It's not the only tool in my tool box, but I would be foolish to not keep that tool handy just because it won't work in EVERY situation.

[pinepig2]

I recently went through a couple of police communication classes. One was outstanding (largely due to the instructor): Predicting Violence & Influencing Outcomes by Calibre Press, instructed by Kelly DeVoll. One takeaway from this was that words can still potentially save your butt even in the most desperate situations. I remember one dash-cam video where an LEO was at gunpoint. He plead for his life, but mid-sentence he launched his counter-attack. The human brain wants to process that sentence before it moves on to the next thing to process, so it bought the LEO a split second. I guarantee he trained for that in roll-playing scenarios. When threatened with imminent death your limbic brain will be doing most of the thinking, and it will look for an option that's already filed away in mental storage. You likely won't be able to deliberate a novel one.

This discussion got me thinking about how a folding knife might fit into a defensive scenario if that's all one has. Here's a few criteria I came up with for knife selection within those parameters.

1) Secure, non-deep carry clip. Getting the knife out of your pocket will be your biggest challenge if attacked. If you are physically engaged the fight will likely go to the ground. If you get a chance to reach for your knife it better be there when you do. I carried a D'Allara 3 on duty for short while (as my second, utility knife). It didn't take long for it to fall out of my pocket - the wire clip was not strong enough for that knife.

Extracting a folding knife requires some fine motor movement versus just wrapping your hand around a handle. The more the knife that protrudes from you pocket the better, to minimize the initial, fingertip manipulation.

2) Adequate size. If you're fortunate enough to get the knife out of your pocket, don't count on actually being able to open it. Guess what, with the right knife you are now holding an excellent impact weapon (think hammer-fist blows to the head). Obviously it will need to protrude past your closed fist to serve as such, the more the better (you won't always be able to get to the assailants head, a longer protrusion should be more effective on other parts of the body).

But seriously, if all of your mental scenarios revolve around fully deploying a folding knife when under attack then you really are deluding yourself. I was 100% guilty of this myself before testing the theory against actual humans.

3) Handle material. As an impact weapon, exposed steel liners or titanium scales are going to fare better than linerless G10, I'd think. A bit of an apex to the end of the handle versus a smooth radius will also go a long way. Also, the knife might not end up in the proper orientation in your hand, so consider what both ends look like.

A knife as impact weapon could end the fight, but if not it can buy that extra half second to either get the blade deployed, disengage to draw your firearm or to just run away.

[blues]

Good points pinepig...I'm a retired LEO and for years I've considered (and recommended) folding knives as an impact weapon as opposed to a cutting tool in a close quarters scrum. (Even if not carrying a firearm.)

Nice to hear others with the same mindset.

[ZrowsN1s]

....
But seriously, if all of your mental scenarios revolve around fully deploying a folding knife when under attack then you really are deluding yourself. I was 100% guilty of this myself before testing the theory against actual humans.

Mental scenarios are good, but actually sparring with training knives is better. To be clear, ALL of my options do NOT revolve around fully deploying a folding knife while under attack. But I get the sense that people think that it's impossible to do so.

I also sense no one wanted to check out any of the links I posted or who the instructors I was referring to are. I posted those so you don't have to take my word for it when I say defense with a folder is a practical option.

I'm going to post a video here of Craig Douglas designer of the P'kal folding knife. A folding knife intended for self defense, designed by a man who teaches self defense. In case you do not know who he is, this is his bio from Shivworks.

"Craig Douglas (a/k/a “SouthNarc”) is the founder of ShivWorks, a consortium of like-minded professionals devoted to training and product development in the emerging field of interdisciplinary problem-solving for self-defense. Craig retired from law enforcement after 21 years of service with the bulk of his career spent in narcotics and SWAT. Since 2003, Craig has been teaching globally under the ShivWorks brand and has conducted coursework on entangled shooting skills in nearly 40 states and nine foreign countries. He has taught for federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies, and to three branches of the U.S. military. "

Sounds like someone who isn't delusional about the realities of close quarter combat right??

Now pay close attention to the video at 10 seconds and 2:40 and you can see a real folding knife (the spyderco p'kal trainer) being used in a real self defense senario with an actual real person fighting back.

https://youtu.be/T7MG6zfj6Hw

I don't think Mr. Douglas would be teaching his students something he doesn't think will work, with a weapon he doesn't think will work. And no offense but I'm going to take his (and many others) word over yours when it comes to what does and doesn't work.

[blues]

Craig would be the first to tell you that not every technique works as planned, and that sometimes stuff happens.
(Yes, he knows who I am, we've worked with some of the same folks on the job and he gifted me one of his self defense knife knives a while back. These days most of the focus seems to be on small fixed blade knives like his Clinch Pick and Push Dagger.)


I think you're taking umbrage at something that pinepig wasn't saying or didn't intend to say. Nobody would try to tell you that a folder can't work or won't work. I think his message is that even if you can't deploy the knife as an edged tool, there are still viable uses for it in a CQB. There's really no need for anyone to get their panties in a twist over an exchange of information and points of view.

My best defensive use of a knife, many years ago in NYC while being targeted as I crossed Washington Square Park late at night, was to open it under a street lamp so that the would-be predator would see it. He decided to change his course and look for easier prey.

I consider that a win. (I've also experienced what it's like on the other side of the equation.)

[pinepig2]

As I alluded to before, someone who trains with edged weapons everyday will be able to do things most of us can't. I had exactly your (ZrowsN1s) mindset at one time, and even carried a Spyderco P'Kal while on duty. When I discovered how difficult it would be for me to deploy it while being assaulted I sold it. I'm not willing to train constantly in knife fighting, I've got other things I'd rather do with my time. I now have a Mule Team in a sheath attached to the back of my mag pouch. It's partially obscured visually by my external carrier, mags, and baton (canted forward). The Halpern scales are a similar color to my uniform shirt. I mention those things because of course the largest risk in carrying a fixed blade knife is that due to being so easy to deploy, it can be more easily taken and used against you.

Another thing we did in a different training session was attach an inflated balloon to the wall and then the instructor timed how fast each officer could deploy their regular duty knife and pop the balloon. Folding knife times (even the autos) were absurdly slow compared to the fixed blades. The instructor couldn't press the buttons on his stop watch fast enough when I used the rig described above.

Anyway, I wanted to give some food for thought for those considering a folding knife for "EDDC." Not looking to argue - I'm out.

[ZrowsN1s]

Fair enough guys. It almost sounds like we agree on most things. I'd prefer a gun to a knife, and fixed blade to a folder. And it sounds like you agree folders can work. I take issue with people who insist folders aren't practical defense tools when there are so many qualified and knowledgeable instructors who know otherwise. But perhaps I misunderstood where you were coming from.

One of the main reasons for people like me to train with a folder is because that is what we are allowed to carry, and what we will likely be carrying if the need to defend ourselves ever comes up. I wont have a gun, a baton, a fixed blade, or pepper spray, I will have a small folding knife. It may be harder to deploy than a fixed blade, but you work with what you've got. And as I said a few posts ago practice is paramount. If youre not willing or able to practice any technique it probably wont work.

I won't be so bold as to say I'd be as fast as fixed blade in a ballon pop with a regular folder, but I bet I could get pretty darn close with an emerson opening folder in a reverse grip draw.

[emanuel]

I've said this before, getting into a knife fight or self-defense scenario involving a knife on your part is the worst case scenario you could put yourself into. Nobody will win, physically you will be wounded, and the law will be harsh on you even if you had a legit reason to use it. Pepper spray (capsicin not CS gas / gun are a million times more effective while reducing the risk your exposing yourself at.

Someone mentioned sparring with knives. I'm telling you, if you get in a knife fight, you'll both get cut bad no matter what controlled training you do, particularly if he will pull a knife out too, and you could both end up dying because you didn't chose the proper tool to have on you. This happens again and again. There is no clear winner in a knife fight, real life isn't a movie, you can't block most knife hits, particularly thrusts. Nobody comes at you slashing about, and neither should you if God forbids you're in that situation. You'll give him skin cuts while he gives you deep stabs.

[ZrowsN1s]

For me, the worst case scenario is my friends or family being hurt or killed. I don't particularly care what happens to the other guy, but I practice a defense that focuses on non-leathal use of a knife.

If someone threatens my or my family's life, and I in a justified use of force inadvertently kill them trying to stop them from carrying that out, it's not desireable but I'm ok with that. If I am killed trying to protect my family I am ok with that. And yes you can assume you will be arrested even in a justified use of force, but my priority is and always will be the safety of my family, friends, and myself. Lawyers can get you out of jail, they can't bring loved ones or you back from dead. I would rather do time for defending my family than watch them be killed. I'd rather do time than let someone kill me. It's not even a question.

Yes if you are fighting against someone with a knife you will likely be cut or stabbed. Training aims to minimize this. 'Winning' is you and your family surviving. You don't pull a knife over a bar fight or some argument, this training is for when you justifiably fear for your life or the life of a loved one.

Pepper spray is not a reliable weapon, it is better than nothing, but not something I would gamble my or my family's safety on. Yes guns are better, wish I lived somewhere I was allowed to carry one.

Michale Janich's counter blade concepts does an excellent job of breaking down the anatomy of most knife attacks, information gleaned from hospitals and police reports and other sources. Repeated thrusts to the left midsection seems to be the most popular. One of the first things he teaches to defend against. But far from the only thing. You should really check out his website and course materials, might change your mind about some things.

[pinepig2]

In FLETC we trained with shock knives. Man, did I ever hate those things. But it's good to help strengthen the aversion to taking hits from the knife.

Like Emanuel mentioned, it was drilled into us how we needed to mentally prepare for being cut/stabbed in scenarios involving a knife. Even if you're the guy with the knife.

[JD Spydo]

Without a serious training,which i dont think you have,you should not even dream to carry a knife for SD.Delicas and Enduras are the best choices,due to the fact they had a trainer version.

That's a great observation "Spyderwolf" I do carry two Spyders on my person daily and have for over 9 years now on a consistent basis. But I'm being realistic about it. I don't have extensive training other than watching a few videos by Lynn Thompson, Bram Frank and about 5 other self defense specialists. The point made about needing to be properly trained is a very valid point and one point that no one should take for granted.

Now I would use either one of my EDCs for SD if I didn't have anything else but it would truly be a "last ditch" effort to try to preserve my own life. I did have an occasion back in 2010 when I was held up at gun point and I was sleeping in my truck that night and all I had for SD was a COLD STEEL Gurkha Kukri with Carbon V blade steel. It is the thick bladed model that I've had for years. I went at the two guys in a very awkward situation and I feel that the "element of surprise" is what saved me. Because I had no training on the use of that Gurkha Kukri but it sure scared those guys to the point to where they ran like the cowards they turned out to be. And thank GOD above my best friend was in his van close by and he came out with a weapon when he was awakened by the noise and that is probably what ultimately saved me when I think about it.

But it does worry me that a lot of well intended knife lovers on these forums can deceive themselves into believing that a certain model of a Spyderco knife will be a great self defense tool. But without proper training it could be anyone's game and disaster could result. Even being armed with a gun is not a 100% guarantee either for that matter. Being ready and being prepared is always to your advantage but again there are no guarantees. But I don't blame anyone for wanting to be armed either for that matter. I would rather have it and not need it rather then to need it and not have it. But proper training could be huge if you are ever in a bad situation as I was back in 2010. You know the old saying "Knowledge Is Power".

[Mattysc42]

Without a serious training,which i dont think you have,you should not even dream to carry a knife for SD.Delicas and Enduras are the best choices,due to the fact they had a trainer version.

That's a great observation "Spyderwolf" I do carry two Spyders on my person daily and have for over 9 years now on a consistent basis. But I'm being realistic about it. I don't have extensive training other than watching a few videos by Lynn Thompson, Bram Frank and about 5 other self defense specialists. The point made about needing to be properly trained is a very valid point and one point that no one should take for granted.

Now I would use either one of my EDCs for SD if I didn't have anything else but it would truly be a "last ditch" effort to try to preserve my own life. I did have an occasion back in 2010 when I was held up at gun point and I was sleeping in my truck that night and all I had for SD was a COLD STEEL Gurkha Kukri with Carbon V blade steel. It is the thick bladed model that I've had for years. I went at the two guys in a very awkward situation and I feel that the "element of surprise" is what saved me. Because I had no training on the use of that Gurkha Kukri but it sure scared those guys to the point to where they ran like the cowards they turned out to be. And thank GOD above my best friend was in his van close by and he came out with a weapon when he was awakened by the noise and that is probably what ultimately saved me when I think about it.

But it does worry me that a lot of well intended knife lovers on these forums can deceive themselves into believing that a certain model of a Spyderco knife will be a great self defense tool. But without proper training it could be anyone's game and disaster could result. Even being armed with a gun is not a 100% guarantee either for that matter. Being ready and being prepared is always to your advantage but again there are no guarantees. But I don't blame anyone for wanting to be armed either for that matter. I would rather have it and not need it rather then to need it and not have it. But proper training could be huge if you are ever in a bad situation as I was back in 2010. You know the old saying "Knowledge Is Power".

This about sums it up for me as well. And while bear spray may not have immediate stopping power, few things are better as a distraction to buy a few seconds of time and either get loved ones out of imminent danger, or counterattack if escape isn’t a realistically viable option.

[JD Spydo]

Without a serious training,which i dont think you have,you should not even dream to carry a knife for SD.Delicas and Enduras are the best choices,due to the fact they had a trainer version.

That's a great observation "Spyderwolf" I do carry two Spyders on my person daily and have for over 9 years now on a consistent basis. But I'm being realistic about it. I don't have extensive training other than watching a few videos by Lynn Thompson, Bram Frank and about 5 other self defense specialists. The point made about needing to be properly trained is a very valid point and one point that no one should take for granted.

Now I would use either one of my EDCs for SD if I didn't have anything else but it would truly be a "last ditch" effort to try to preserve my own life. I did have an occasion back in 2010 when I was held up at gun point and I was sleeping in my truck that night and all I had for SD was a COLD STEEL Gurkha Kukri with Carbon V blade steel. It is the thick bladed model that I've had for years. I went at the two guys in a very awkward situation and I feel that the "element of surprise" is what saved me. Because I had no training on the use of that Gurkha Kukri but it sure scared those guys to the point to where they ran like the cowards they turned out to be. And thank GOD above my best friend was in his van close by and he came out with a weapon when he was awakened by the noise and that is probably what ultimately saved me when I think about it.

But it does worry me that a lot of well intended knife lovers on these forums can deceive themselves into believing that a certain model of a Spyderco knife will be a great self defense tool. But without proper training it could be anyone's game and disaster could result. Even being armed with a gun is not a 100% guarantee either for that matter. Being ready and being prepared is always to your advantage but again there are no guarantees. But I don't blame anyone for wanting to be armed either for that matter. I would rather have it and not need it rather then to need it and not have it. But proper training could be huge if you are ever in a bad situation as I was back in 2010. You know the old saying "Knowledge Is Power".

This about sums it up for me as well. And while bear spray may not have immediate stopping power, few things are better as a distraction to buy a few seconds of time and either get loved ones out of imminent danger, or counterattack if escape isn’t a realistically viable option.

And please believe me I'm about as huge of a supporter of the Second Amendment as anyone you'll ever meet. And I include "Knives" as well as guns on my view of the Second Amendment. If you can get the valuable training and get the upper hand to where you'll be much safer I'm all for that. But do always realize that the "Knife" itself no matter how great of a knife it is won't guarantee you safety in a potentially lethal situation.

As I said earlier "Knowledge Is Power" and most of the time people are under the deception that a high quality knife will make the difference between whether or not you would prevail in a fight or any other bad situation. The older I'm getting I'm really seeing the value of "avoidance" rather than putting yourself in a very volatile situation that could be life threatening. All of us need to be extremely careful because most thugs and hoodlums play for keeps and they don't play by any set rules either. Michael Janich has a lot of expertise in this area and I always like to hear what he has to say about self defense.

[blues]

It's all fun and games and West Side Story until someone loses an eye...

[ZrowsN1s]

https://youtu.be/nyeVhba1P0o
Seemed like a good video for the discussion. He was ultimately acquitted of all charges and found to have been justified in his use of force. But it was a long ordeal even after the assault. He didn't win, he survived.

[spyderwolf]

Without a serious training,which i dont think you have,you should not even dream to carry a knife for SD.Delicas and Enduras are the best choices,due to the fact they had a trainer version.

That's a great observation "Spyderwolf" I do carry two Spyders on my person daily and have for over 9 years now on a consistent basis. But I'm being realistic about it. I don't have extensive training other than watching a few videos by Lynn Thompson, Bram Frank and about 5 other self defense specialists. The point made about needing to be properly trained is a very valid point and one point that no one should take for granted.

Now I would use either one of my EDCs for SD if I didn't have anything else but it would truly be a "last ditch" effort to try to preserve my own life. I did have an occasion back in 2010 when I was held up at gun point and I was sleeping in my truck that night and all I had for SD was a COLD STEEL Gurkha Kukri with Carbon V blade steel. It is the thick bladed model that I've had for years. I went at the two guys in a very awkward situation and I feel that the "element of surprise" is what saved me. Because I had no training on the use of that Gurkha Kukri but it sure scared those guys to the point to where they ran like the cowards they turned out to be. And thank GOD above my best friend was in his van close by and he came out with a weapon when he was awakened by the noise and that is probably what ultimately saved me when I think about it.

But it does worry me that a lot of well intended knife lovers on these forums can deceive themselves into believing that a certain model of a Spyderco knife will be a great self defense tool. But without proper training it could be anyone's game and disaster could result. Even being armed with a gun is not a 100% guarantee either for that matter. Being ready and being prepared is always to your advantage but again there are no guarantees. But I don't blame anyone for wanting to be armed either for that matter. I would rather have it and not need it rather then to need it and not have it. But proper training could be huge if you are ever in a bad situation as I was back in 2010. You know the old saying "Knowledge Is Power".

I'm glad you came out ok from the bad situation you were in.If we talking about intimidation factor,than the Respect would be a great choice,Crocodile Dundee style :).As you know,guns are illegal in all Europe,so only cops and criminals have them,and in western europe is also illegal to carry so much as a nail clipper on you for sd.Ramdom violence has sky rocketed in the last years by the way.In my opinion,awareness,and looking like a hard target should be your first line of defence.

[Pcexbird]

The Paramilitary 2 or even the Para 3 with it's fine tip can easily slash an assailants throat very quickly. The tip of the Para 3 and PAra 2 is like a razor blade. And we've all seen the sheer destruction a simple razor blade can do to an attacker. DLC should be a given, because you likely don't want the attacker to see your knife coming.

[TkoK83Spy]

^^ Loves reviving zombie threads!