Para 2 as EDDC

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PaleMoon
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby PaleMoon » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:50 pm

I live in a pretty seedy part of the world where, surprisingly, guns are very tightly controlled. I've considered buying a blade for SD a couple times and the waved Matriarch 2 was at the top of my list. Ultimately, I decided my odds of survival would be much greater if I'd just kept the 80-something dollars in my pocket, which is more than enough money to diffuse almost any situation over here.

That being said, you really can't go wrong with a S110V PM2, which will prove much more useful as a regular EDC along the way. The handle color is well suited to jeans, whereas I'd probably go with the blacked out version if I was wearing a black suit. Steel is irrelevant in your situation IMO.
The problem of a coherent civilization is the problem of living with ignorance and not being frustrated by it.

vivi
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby vivi » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:01 pm

fivesense wrote:I plan to pick up a Spyderco Paramilitary 2 to use as my everyday defensive carry knife. I have a Military now and love it but now want the 4-way capability of the Para 2 clip.

First, I've read about the "drag" of the DLC coating when slicing but I think that applies more to food prep. Is it a practical consideration for EDDC? I doubt it so I suppose it comes down to aesthetic and corrosion resistance. My Military is satin and I love it but I do like the Black DLC on the Para 2.

I'm debating the digi camo vs. the black handle but as this EDDC will double for when I'm wearing my suits for business, the black handles will disappear better in my pocket.

Lastly, what is a comparable and perhaps better consideration for EDDC in this category? Although I'm pretty confident the Para 2 fits the bill, I'm open to suggestions.
I EDC'd a DLC Para 2 for four years straight.

If corrosion resistance is important to you, go with DLC. If it's not, pick whichever appeals to you more. The DLC coating is the difference between being able to actually EDC the knife VS only being able to carry it in our coldest few months for me, so the coating matters a great deal to me. I only EDC H1 and DLC blades.

There is some drag, but it does not come into play often. Aside from cutting rigid foods like splitting an apple in half, I never notice it. Even then it only requires a little bit more pressure to make the cut compared to a satin blade. The trade off is 100% worth it for me since I value corrosion resistance so much.

Definitely go with black if you want it to be discreet. I carried a digicamo Military prior to the Para, and the Para blends in much better. Solid black is great for this, and its why I always go with black handled salts instead of yellow.

In my 15 years of collecting and using Spydercos I have never had any issues with S30V. It takes a screaming sharp edge, resists corrosion well, sharpens up relatively easily with minimal burring, and has always held an edge very well for me. I would take DLC S30V over satin S110V 10 times out of 10.

I retired my Para 2 because the detent wore out and it started coming open in my pocket unexpectedly. Carried in my back pocket tip up it'd pop open just walking around. One of these days I'll send it in to Spyderco and see what they can do, but in the meantime IS witched to Pacific Salts for EDC.

Compared to the Para its lighter, even more corrosion resistant, roomier handle (Compared to gripping behind the choil on the Para) stays closed much better, its less expensive, has a longer cutting edge and holds its edge longer (If its SE, PE Salts have inferior edge holding to S30V, much less the sprint runs)

The benefits of the Paramilitary are it has a much, much more useful tip (Pacific Salts need reground to get an actual knife point), the lock is more fun to manipulate (Though not as safe when carried), 4 way clip (I'm RHTU always so moot point for me), more steel options (SEH1 is my favorite steel, again moot point for my uses), and typically smoother opening and closing when new (Broken in they're even).

The Native 5 and DLC lightweight Manix are two other models I'd consider, that are similar size and blade shape to the Para 2.

I don't carry knives for self defense (Glock / S&W work better IMO) but the Para would not be my first choice for that role. I'd be more comfortable with a Police 3, Military, Manix XL, Szabo folder, street beat or even my Pacific Salt. The main reasons are the short blade length compared to those larger folders, and the grip behind the choil is a bit undersized for me. I would never choose a knife that's primary grip relies on the index choil for self defense, it limits reach and doesn't strike me as an effective grip for stabbing motions. The Manix lightweight would be superior for self defense in my eyes, as it features a stronger forward guard and a more robust grip behind the choil.

Para 2 is an amazing knife and I think its one of the best designs to ever come out of Spydercos Golden factory. I can recommend one with zero hesitation, I just happened to find something that fits my preferences a little better.

fivesense
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby fivesense » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 pm

Vivi wrote:
fivesense wrote:I plan to pick up a Spyderco Paramilitary 2 to use as my everyday defensive carry knife. I have a Military now and love it but now want the 4-way capability of the Para 2 clip.

First, I've read about the "drag" of the DLC coating when slicing but I think that applies more to food prep. Is it a practical consideration for EDDC? I doubt it so I suppose it comes down to aesthetic and corrosion resistance. My Military is satin and I love it but I do like the Black DLC on the Para 2.

I'm debating the digi camo vs. the black handle but as this EDDC will double for when I'm wearing my suits for business, the black handles will disappear better in my pocket.

Lastly, what is a comparable and perhaps better consideration for EDDC in this category? Although I'm pretty confident the Para 2 fits the bill, I'm open to suggestions.
I EDC'd a DLC Para 2 for four years straight.

If corrosion resistance is important to you, go with DLC. If it's not, pick whichever appeals to you more. The DLC coating is the difference between being able to actually EDC the knife VS only being able to carry it in our coldest few months for me, so the coating matters a great deal to me. I only EDC H1 and DLC blades.

There is some drag, but it does not come into play often. Aside from cutting rigid foods like splitting an apple in half, I never notice it. Even then it only requires a little bit more pressure to make the cut compared to a satin blade. The trade off is 100% worth it for me since I value corrosion resistance so much.

Definitely go with black if you want it to be discreet. I carried a digicamo Military prior to the Para, and the Para blends in much better. Solid black is great for this, and its why I always go with black handled salts instead of yellow.

In my 15 years of collecting and using Spydercos I have never had any issues with S30V. It takes a screaming sharp edge, resists corrosion well, sharpens up relatively easily with minimal burring, and has always held an edge very well for me. I would take DLC S30V over satin S110V 10 times out of 10.

I retired my Para 2 because the detent wore out and it started coming open in my pocket unexpectedly. Carried in my back pocket tip up it'd pop open just walking around. One of these days I'll send it in to Spyderco and see what they can do, but in the meantime IS witched to Pacific Salts for EDC.

Compared to the Para its lighter, even more corrosion resistant, roomier handle (Compared to gripping behind the choil on the Para) stays closed much better, its less expensive, has a longer cutting edge and holds its edge longer (If its SE, PE Salts have inferior edge holding to S30V, much less the sprint runs)

The benefits of the Paramilitary are it has a much, much more useful tip (Pacific Salts need reground to get an actual knife point), the lock is more fun to manipulate (Though not as safe when carried), 4 way clip (I'm RHTU always so moot point for me), more steel options (SEH1 is my favorite steel, again moot point for my uses), and typically smoother opening and closing when new (Broken in they're even).

The Native 5 and DLC lightweight Manix are two other models I'd consider, that are similar size and blade shape to the Para 2.

I don't carry knives for self defense (Glock / S&W work better IMO) but the Para would not be my first choice for that role. I'd be more comfortable with a Police 3, Military, Manix XL, Szabo folder, street beat or even my Pacific Salt. The main reasons are the short blade length compared to those larger folders, and the grip behind the choil is a bit undersized for me. I would never choose a knife that's primary grip relies on the index choil for self defense, it limits reach and doesn't strike me as an effective grip for stabbing motions. The Manix lightweight would be superior for self defense in my eyes, as it features a stronger forward guard and a more robust grip behind the choil.

Para 2 is an amazing knife and I think its one of the best designs to ever come out of Spydercos Golden factory. I can recommend one with zero hesitation, I just happened to find something that fits my preferences a little better.
Thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and perspective. I'm with you- first resort in a truly SD situation is a Glock or HK (or S&W in the woods).

You mention the lock not being as safe when carried. Can you elaborate?

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Blerv
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby Blerv » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:30 pm

A sharp 3.5" blade and compression lock will do just fine. Awareness and training is more important than the tool you pick anyways.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby h8speech » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:25 pm

If you're after a knife to defend yourself with, I'm not sure why you would choose the Paramilitary 2.

I've used a knife to defend myself, and also used to be a competitive fencer. If you want a knife to use for violent purposes, I don't recommend that you do this, but if you insist then you should get the longest blade which you can get away with. Every inch of extra reach matters. The Police 4 has an inch more blade than the PM2 and has a four position clip. Or you could get the Civilian. The problem with the Civilian though is that blade injuries aren't incapacitating unless they're fatal, and you can't stab with the Civilian. You might slice the guy up, but he won't even know about that until later.

In fact, that's the problem with using knives for self defence: you can kill someone by using a knife, but you can't stop someone by using a knife. Guns cause shock, knives cause none. When my entire left tricep was severed, I could not feel any pain and was unaware that I was injured. A TASER or capsicum spray is incomparably superior for defending yourself.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby fivesense » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:28 pm

h8speech wrote:you can kill someone by using a knife, but you can't stop someone by using a knife.
Sorry, this does not compute. And fencing has nothing to do with using a knife for SD.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby awa54 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:43 pm

fivesense wrote:
h8speech wrote:you can kill someone by using a knife, but you can't stop someone by using a knife.
Sorry, this does not compute. And fencing has nothing to do with using a knife for SD.

Seems like the implication is that if you don't actually want to kill an assailant to end a confrontation other means are more effective in giving a chance to break combat and escape. If OTOH you prefer to kill your assailant, a longer blade will give a significant advantage.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

017
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby 017 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:59 pm

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Last edited by 017 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

fivesense
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby fivesense » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:13 pm

017 wrote:
fivesense wrote:Is the little Spyderco emblem on the blade a different color if the blade is black coating vs. DLC? In looking at various images online, I see different color emblems (one grey and the other white) and I assume it must be because of the different coating. Perhaps it's just different lighting in the images? Any ideas?
Depending on the light, the laser etching can look silver or a slightly bronze colour. At least to me, anyway.
That could very well be the case. I may put in a call to Spyderco next week.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby murphjd25 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:35 pm

Fortunately for me that's what the .40 is for. I only have knives to use as tools. Much easier to draw a gun instead of a knife, but I do understand it's different for everyone depending where you live or are comfortable with. If I wanted a knife for SD I would probably check out the Yojimbo 2 or some type of waved Spyderco, I'm not sure the PM2 would be the best in that situation.
Josh

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby Cheddarnut » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:21 pm

i carry garlic in my pocket for eddc. When i sense imminent conflict i quickly pop a clove into my mouth and chew rigorously. When the attacker advances i breathe heavily on them, leaving them stunned and disoriented momentarily while i escape to the nearest kitchen to make a lovely breakfast with the remaining cloves. Sometimes i invite the attacker. Sometimes they accept. Often they ask how i would use garlic for breakfast.
My backup eddc is an onion.
*edit- not a ken onion.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby Bill1170 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:39 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Unless you will be cutting more than 20 people at a time, I would say edge retention on any of the steels that the PM2 is offered with would suffice for self defense purposes.
This, exactly. A dedicated SD blade stays sharp because it is never used for utility, and hopefully never at all. Flesh is soft, so edge retention isn't a factor.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:44 pm

If you carry a super steel knife with high edge retention it no longer has to be a dedicated SD knife. You can use it for all sorts of stuff, and it will still be more than sharp enough for SD. I like my knives to wear more than one hat. :D
Gunfu is the best defense, nothing levels the playing field faster. But guns do jam/misfire or worse you may be fighting for control of your gun with someone... A back up knife is good peace of mind. (And if you live where I do, you're not allowed to carry guns anyways ;) )

As far as the PM2 for self defense, I personally find the ergo to be a plus, especially reverse grip. In forward grip, just grip it behind the blade choil and put your thumb on the thumb ramp, it's not going to slip. I shanked a big pack of paper towels from costco hard and fast, repeatedly, with lots of enthusiasm... just to see if the PM2 got squirrely in my grip, it didn't budge. Cutting is better for self defense than stabbing anyways.

Forward SD
zpm2c.jpg
Reverse SD
zpm2b.jpg
EDC tasks
zpm2.jpg
As far as blade length goes, you can defend yourself and incapacitate someone with a very small knife if you know what you're about. A long blade can have some advantage in self defense, but it is absolutely not necessary. I guarantee you, you can incapacitate someone with a Yojimbo or pm2.
Rather than listen to me though, here is a link to a video from self defense expert Michael Janich designer of the Yojimbo 2. A quick internet search will find you hours of video advice from him on close quarter knife fighting that I think will serve you a little better than some of the advice you've gotten here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LVRCz9ThWw

reverse grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk3UGE5kh9M

Speed stops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF6lzHdJqpk
I ❤ The POLICE :spyder:

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby Ales D » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:24 am

mb1 wrote:If you're talking purely defense backup, there are several options purpose built for this: Civilain, Matriarch 2, Karahawk, Yojimbo, Reverse, Pkal, and I'm sure others I've forgotten.

For me, knives as self defense tools are pretty far down the list (like last), so I carry EDC blades for utility value. It's something like this for me in order of priority:

Your brain - awareness and avoidance
You feet - GTFO
Pistol
Sword or big stick
Rocks
Knives
We should elaborate "Self Defence" as first.
Often people make the mistake of confusing SD with "Knife Fight".
NON AURO SED FERRO RECUPERANDA EST PATRIA
(Marcus Furius Camillus)

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby elena86 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:28 am

h8speech wrote:....... The problem with the Civilian though is that blade injuries aren't incapacitating unless they're fatal, and you can't stab with the Civilian. You might slice the guy up, but he won't even know about that until later.

In fact, that's the problem with using knives for self defence: you can kill someone by using a knife, but you can't stop someone by using a knife..
Not true.If you don't believe me, ask Michael Janich.

Marius

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:51 am

Ales D wrote:
mb1 wrote:If you're talking purely defense backup, there are several options purpose built for this: Civilain, Matriarch 2, Karahawk, Yojimbo, Reverse, Pkal, and I'm sure others I've forgotten.

For me, knives as self defense tools are pretty far down the list (like last), so I carry EDC blades for utility value. It's something like this for me in order of priority:

Your brain - awareness and avoidance
You feet - GTFO
Pistol
Sword or big stick
Rocks
Knives
We should elaborate "Self Defence" as first.
Often people make the mistake of confusing SD with "Knife Fight".
Mr. Janich had a great quote I can't remember exactly, I'll paraphrase as best I can, "I don't believe in knife fighting per se. But if you're going to fight with a knife, the first rule of knife fighting is HAVE a knife."
I ❤ The POLICE :spyder:

vivi
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby vivi » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:05 am

fivesense wrote:
You mention the lock not being as safe when carried. Can you elaborate?
This was only after carrying it for years and using it hard. When it was new I did not have this issue at all. I don't know if this is something that will eventually happen with all compression locks, or even all Para 2's. This is the only compression lock knife I've carried for that many years. I believe its something Spyderco can fix as well.

For what its worth the Yojimbo 2 seems to have a stiffer detent, which is something I now look for.

Either way I wouldn't let my experiences deter you from the Para if you're interested in it, its an exceptional design. There are thousands of them being carried and used daily and so far I'm the only person I know of that has had this issue. Mine was also from an early batch of DLC Para 2's, so its possible some CQI has occurred since then.

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby elena86 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:23 am

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Ales D wrote:
mb1 wrote:If you're talking purely defense backup, there are several options purpose built for this: Civilain, Matriarch 2, Karahawk, Yojimbo, Reverse, Pkal, and I'm sure others I've forgotten.

For me, knives as self defense tools are pretty far down the list (like last), so I carry EDC blades for utility value. It's something like this for me in order of priority:

Your brain - awareness and avoidance
You feet - GTFO
Pistol
Sword or big stick
Rocks
Knives
We should elaborate "Self Defence" as first.
Often people make the mistake of confusing SD with "Knife Fight".
Mr. Janich had a great quote I can't remember exactly, I'll paraphrase as best I can, "I don't believe in knife fighting per se. But if you're going to fight with a knife, the first rule of knife fighting is HAVE a knife."
I agree 100%.Awareness and avoidance are most important

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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby Bloke » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:56 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Unless you will be cutting more than 20 people at a time, I would say edge retention on any of the steels that the PM2 is offered with would suffice for self defense purposes.
Ah, hahaha! Too funny! Ah, hahaha! :cool:
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Re: Para 2 as EDDC

Postby spyderwolf » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:37 am

Without a serious training,which i dont think you have,you should not even dream to carry a knife for SD.Delicas and Enduras are the best choices,due to the fact they had a trainer version.
Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt.


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