Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

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vivi
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Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#1

Post by vivi »

I've carried PE knives my entire life. I never liked serrated edges. I never used them for anything. If I got a serrated knife in a multiple knife trade deal, I'd grind the serrations off like this ATS55 Endura I converted to plain edge.

I never got the love for serrations. I didn't know how to sharpen them. They snagged on things I tried to cut. They didn't seem to do anything a sharp plain edge could not. To me it seemed like they were for people who did not know how to sharpen knives, figuring a dull serrated edge can cut more effectively than a dull plain edge.

That mentality played into my treatment of the one SE knife I kept around, a Tasman Salt I purchased to try out this new fangled H1. I treated it as a beater / loaner, using it for things like cutting skateboard grip tape, sod and other abrasive, damaging materials. For the work I used it for, it didn't matter too much how sharp it was, it just had to be working sharp.

----------------------------

My favorite knife is the Spyderco Pacific Salt. I carried a plain edged model for 8 years. Initially it was my summer beater, a knife I carried when I was swimming, kayaking, mountain biking or doing any other activity where it'd be exposed to corrosive environments. Over the years it grew to be my go to EDC knife. The old beat up Pacific Salt that'd been through **** and back, a meager $60 knife, was seeing more pocket time than my $200 sprint Military and other higher end Spydercos.

Since it was my favorite model, and the H1 blade steel had me particularly impressed for many different reasons, I always followed discussions surrounding new H1 knives and the Salt series. I noticed many discussions regarding plain edged VS serrated edged H1.

H1 is a unique blade steel in many ways. It is Nitrogen based instead of carbon based like most knife blades, and it also work hardens. Work hardening comes into play on the production level when Spyderco grinds serrations into the blades. This process makes the H1 edges much harder than the plain edged H1 blades.

So after hearing about how the grass is greener on the serrated side for nearly a decade, I caved and gave a serrated Pacific Salt a go. I told myself I was going to carry it and no other knives for two weeks.

I thought I would have to force myself to carry it for those two weeks. I couldn't imagine trying to rip open my mail or hack apart an onion with it. I expected to post a write-up here about how I gave serrated knives one last honest go and I don't see the appeal.

That was four months ago.

That serrated Pacific Salt has been in my pocket every single day since then.

Why? What was different this time?

I like sharp knives. Really sharp knives. If I can't whittle individual hairs and push cut circles in receipts, it does not go in my pocket. I reach for another knife or sharpen that one.

This right here was the key. That old Endura was dull from the previous owner, and my Tasman was a beater I never properly sharpened. When I took the time to get the serrated knife just as sharp as my plain edges knives, the knife immediately impressed me from the first time I used it. I tried it on everything I could think of. The result was always the same, it effortlessly destroyed whatever I put in front of it.

It's the same thing as the first time you use a hair popping sharp plain edge knife when you're used to sawing through cardboard with a dulled POS. My eyes were once and for all open to the advantages of a serrated edge.

The first advantage I noticed is the thinner edge. I am someone who regrinds every single plain edged knife I intend to use to about 1/3 to 1/2 the factory thickness. This serrated knife came ground at 15 degrees inclusive, and I aim for 8 degrees per side when sharpening plain edged knives + microbevel. This means I do not have to bother with regrinding the edge, which saves me time and effort. If you are like a normal person who does not regrind everything, then the serrated edge being twice as thin from factory will mean you'll see a dramatic difference from edge geometry alone. We're talking 35-40 degree edges VS 15 degrees, big difference.//forum.spyderco.com/postin ... &p=1156626

The second advantage I noticed is how it grabs material when it cuts. Certain materials, a plain edged knife will sometime slip around a bit, especially if it's not freshly sharpened. Think ripe tomatoes, raw sausages, clearing light vegetation, cutting dense plastics and synthetic rope. The serrated edge digs into materials in a way plain edges do not, because it's slicing the material at so many different angles at once. This effect is especially pronounced with a freshly sharpened serrated knife. The effortlessness with which it chews through certain materials is unlike even my sharpest plain edge knives. This will be very dependent on what types of materials you use your EDC knives for. I cut open plastic and cardboard packages, open mail, cut pallet straps, do gardening stuff, trim back vegetation on hiking trails, basic food prep like slicing bread and quartering apples, trim strings and tags off clothes, break down cardboard for recycling...stuff like that. For all of those things I've found the serrated version of the salt to do better than the plain edge. I will say that slicing large pieces of cardboard took some getting used to because of the chisel grind, but once I adapted my technique I found it's easier with the serrated edge.

The third advantage I noticed is increased edge holding and superior sharpening response. This is due to the nature of H1 rather than SE vs PE I'd imagine. If it were two VG10 Enduras being compared I'd expect to maybe see a bit more edge retention in SE, but not a dramatic difference, and I wouldn't expect a different feel while sharpening. The higher RC SE takes an extremely fine edge a little more easily for me. I've always had that experience with high RC steels like ZDP189 and SE H1.

The fourth advantage I noticed is, to my complete surprise, they're easier to sharpen. I've been sharpening PE knives decades longer than I have been sharpening serrated knives well. Yet in the 4 months I've carried this Pacific Salt, I've come to find it's easier and quicker to sharpen than my plain edged version. One reason is you do not have to follow the curve of the blade. If you look closely at many serrated Spydercos (Can't speak for every model), the serrations are all aligned the same direction, ignoring the curve flowing from ricasso to tip. This means my curved blade sharpens just like a wharncliffe. Second, I only need to grind one side, then I do one nearly flat to the stone pass on the back to knock off the burr. I hit the presentation side on the corner of my strop, then it's popping hairs off without touching my skin whether I finish with my medium rods or ultrafine. Half the time I don't even use my sharpmaker, I'll take one of the triangle rods and hold it in my left hand and freehand it. With the bevel being so wide, it's really easy to rock it back and forth on the sharpening stone to get a feel for the right sharpening angle. It's very intuitive to go by feel after you get some practice.

The fifth advantage I noticed is they tend to minimize edge damage. For example I was doing some gardening work with the Pacific Salt and got the edge caught on some steel wiring. The wire got caught in one of the large scallops and rolled the steel a bit, but the rest of the edge was fine. If it were plain edge, I'd imagine it would have slipped down the length of the edge and blunted it some. There was another time I bumped the edge on a stainless steel prep table. Some of the serration tips rolled a bit, but the scallops were still deadly sharp and kept cutting. The damage tends to be more localized when accidents happen.

It's mostly the increased edge holding and the aggressive slicing action that sold me. I'm usually pretty careful with my knives and I never had difficulty sharpening plain edged knives, but quicker sharpening is nice.

I can't stress enough how much of a difference getting it properly sharp made. That is the only reason I didn't warm up to serrated edges sooner. Sawing through cardboard, ripping and tearing it...that feels like garbage compared to a smooth, clean stroke with a plain edge knife. Once you combine the aggressive nature of a serrated edge with a hair popping sharp edge, it will be even more effortless than that razor sharp plain edge knife even on a push cut.

Now, none of this is to say that serrated edges are the best there is for every task. I wouldn't want to use one to mince garlic or shave my face. Another thing to note is they took some getting used to for me. I had to learn some new sharpening techniques to fully appreciate them, and being chisel ground you have to modify how you cut certain objects to maintain a straight slice. It wasn't difficult to adapt to them but it's worth noting.

For an EDC knife, serrated is the way to go for my uses. I never thought I would say that. I never thought I would be considering a serrated Ark and Aqua Salt. Now I see what all the fuss has been about, and I feel silly for being so late to the party. I gotta see about trading some of my backup PE Pacific Salts for SE ;)

I've owned every Spyderco folder I've wanted, from the Lil Temp to the ZDP189 Caly 3.5 to the S90V/CF Military and every iteration of both sizes of the Manix. This is the king of my collection:

Image

If anyone is interested I can make a video of my sharpening technique.
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jdw
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#2

Post by jdw »

nm
Last edited by jdw on Sat May 27, 2017 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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elena86
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#3

Post by elena86 »

I allways preached the superiority of spyderedges over the plain edges but I was like Moses in the desert.I am glad when someone converts to my cult :D
I proper sharpened spyderedge can do things a plain edge does but not the other way around.The only thing I struggle to do with a spyderedge is to peel a tomato :eek: Hey Vivi I'd like to see a vid with your sharpening technique.

Marius
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Jazz
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#4

Post by Jazz »

I just found out also how easy they are to get very sharp, and that sharpness is the key to enjoying them. I still prefer plain edge, and especially for cardboard (I still find they slow me down there), but I actually use my SE models now. I even bought the new Manbug. In my pocket right now.

I was HIGHLY impressed at how they cut heavy nylon straps, using more of a pull through cut with minimal slicing. Right through, when sharp. The points start the cut, then the sharp scallops sail through. I even made a vid.

It's Sal's fault I'm using them. He sent me a SE Delica Wharnie. He's tricky. ;) thanks for sharing your thoughts, bro.
- best wishes, Jazz.
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Surfingringo
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#5

Post by Surfingringo »

Yeah man. I love Spyder-edge knives. I usually prefer plain edge for my typical edc carry but there are lots of times when I prefer a serrated knife. I could easily spend the next year carrying nothing but a serrated pacific salt. Like jazz says though, they need to be kept sharp to really be appreciated...but can't that be said of any edge?
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kbuzbee
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#6

Post by kbuzbee »

Oh dear. He's gone over to the dark side, haha.

Nice write up!

Ken
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tonijedi
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#7

Post by tonijedi »

Thanks for the post.
Video please!
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Evil D
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#8

Post by Evil D »

It usually pays to keep an open mind and the biggest payoffs are usually from the things you're most set in your ways about.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#9

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Agree 100 percent! Thanks for the post.

You, me, SurfGringo, EvilD, and everyone else here are going to love the Spyderco Caribbean lc200n with serrated edges.
ThePeacent
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#10

Post by ThePeacent »

My experience mimics yours in that I was hesitant to buy any SE from my experience with lesser quality brands and cheap products. in fact when I got my Pacific Salt it was the only SE I had in my collection other than the SE blades in my multitools.

I was amazed. Shocked by its performance, toughness and long-lasting useful edge. Nothing compared to my previous picks. It's been 356 days a year by my side since that, 3 years ago now.

I followed Gringo's JDSpydo's and others' posts and threads and acquired each and every Salt out there. All but two, in SE.
I am really glad I did, they've slowly replaced all my other knives and there is rarely a day I don't carry a Tasman and a Pacific together.
I love H1, I use my blades in humid, dirty and rough environments and these changed my way of doing things, and 180º turn in my understanding and using of folding knives. ;)

LC200N seems promising as the rustproof steel choice for PE, but after those many SE I'll probably pick it in a serrated configuration as I've grown used to it
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wrdwrght
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#11

Post by wrdwrght »

JD, is that you? :D

Quite a testimonial, Vivi.

I'm certainly with you all the way regarding H1.

I gotta say my tolerance for the PE Pacific Salt's need for frequent sharpening is way lower than yours. Eight years? I relegated mine to the garden as a beater almost immediately.

I'm more enthusiastic about SE hawkbills (have three in H1) and wharncliffes (have two in H1) than bellied blades (have one in H1). SE blades tend to chatter on some materials in my experience. Perhaps this tendency is related to degree of sharpness, but you have mentioned altering your cutting technique to achieve a straight cut.

Can you elaborate? I suspect the chattering and curving tendencies may be related.

If so, overcoming them might fulfill the promise of longer cutting edge in SE than in PE over the same length of edge.
-Marc (pocketing an S110V Native5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Archimedes
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#12

Post by Archimedes »

I have always liked a good Serrated knife. If you can find a full flat ground Serrated Stretch I recommend it. What a knife!

The new Jumpmaster 2 is another amazing knife.
vivi
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#13

Post by vivi »

elena86 wrote:I allways preached the superiority of spyderedges over the plain edges but I was like Moses in the desert.I am glad when someone converts to my cult :D
I proper sharpened spyderedge can do things a plain edge does but not the other way around.The only thing I struggle to do with a spyderedge is to peel a tomato :eek: Hey Vivi I'd like to see a vid with your sharpening technique.

Marius
I'm going to shoot a video of it today. I was searching around and it blew me away how complicated and long the SE sharpening videos are on youtube. I'm going to shoot for 2 1/2 minutes or less with my video.

I actually tried peeling an apple with my SE Salt for fun, and it worked really well. Surprised me. Tomatoes would be tougher though.
vivi
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#14

Post by vivi »

Jazz wrote:I just found out also how easy they are to get very sharp, and that sharpness is the key to enjoying them. I still prefer plain edge, and especially for cardboard (I still find they slow me down there), but I actually use my SE models now. I even bought the new Manbug. In my pocket right now.

I was HIGHLY impressed at how they cut heavy nylon straps, using more of a pull through cut with minimal slicing. Right through, when sharp. The points start the cut, then the sharp scallops sail through. I even made a vid.

It's Sal's fault I'm using them. He sent me a SE Delica Wharnie. He's tricky. ;) thanks for sharing your thoughts, bro.
Sal can be like that. I had a Tasman Salt that impressed me with its rust proof nature, but never thought much about the toughness of the steel. I broke an Endura being dumb and Sal sent me an Aqua Salt and said "Here try to break this." So I did. I pounded it tip first into dead tree trunks and pried off bark and wood. I batoned enough wood to fuel 50 camp fires the first year I had it. It spent a summer buried in my backyard. I've thrown it at targets. Sharpened it on bricks and stones. It refuses to die or take any sort of damage. That's when I really started getting into H1, because I realized there was so much more to it than the rust proof nature Spyderco markets. It is extremely tough, clearly outclassing any stainless steel I've tried with its ability to roll instead of chip. I do light trail clearing with my SE Pacific Salt, including chopping through 1-2" limbs. I can chop wood with its 15 degree inclusive edge and it doesn't ever chip, it's insane.
vivi
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#15

Post by vivi »

wrdwrght wrote:JD, is that you? :D

Quite a testimonial, Vivi.

I'm certainly with you all the way regarding H1.

I gotta say my tolerance for the PE Pacific Salt's need for frequent sharpening is way lower than yours. Eight years? I relegated mine to the garden as a beater almost immediately.

I'm more enthusiastic about SE hawkbills (have three in H1) and wharncliffes (have two in H1) than bellied blades (have one in H1). SE blades tend to chatter on some materials in my experience. Perhaps this tendency is related to degree of sharpness, but you have mentioned altering your cutting technique to achieve a straight cut.

Can you elaborate? I suspect the chattering and curving tendencies may be related.

If so, overcoming them might fulfill the promise of longer cutting edge in SE than in PE over the same length of edge.
I did a lot of experimenting with my PE Pacific Salt to figure out what works best. I found that using a higher polish, the edge didn't seem to last as long. PE H1 tends to lose that sticky sharp edge quickly, and it'll have a slick feeling when I try to slice materials. I also found diamond stones worked better than ceramics, leaving a more aggressive edge. I can get it hair popping sharp on my ultrafine spyderco stone, but the edge will last longer if I finish on a coarse to fine DMT stone. I usually finish PE H1 on a coarse to XX course DMT stone, then one pass on either side with my strop. This leaves it some teeth on the edge so it doesn't feel slick as quickly.

In regards to my cutting technique, take a SE knife and a foot long piece of cardboard and cut straight down. Well, try to. The knife should curve to your right if you're using the same technique as you would with PE. If you rotate the knife slightly so the spine is tilted away from you a bit, it's much easier to get a straight cut.
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wrdwrght
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#16

Post by wrdwrght »

News to me. If true, information offered in the following link explains why PE and SE are so different in H1.

http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/is-h ... t-17181058
-Marc (pocketing an S110V Native5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Evil D
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#17

Post by Evil D »

Vivi wrote:
If anyone is interested I can make a video of my sharpening technique.
I'm always looking for sharpening ideas. Lay it on me.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
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Jazz
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#18

Post by Jazz »

Evil D wrote:
Vivi wrote:
If anyone is interested I can make a video of my sharpening technique.
I'm always looking for sharpening ideas. Lay it on me.
What he said, bro.
- best wishes, Jazz.
vivi
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#19

Post by vivi »

editing it now. production values are nothing fancy but hopefully the info is helpful.
JD Spydo
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Re: Never thought I'd convert from PE to SE

#20

Post by JD Spydo »

wrdwrght wrote:JD, is that you? :D

Quite a testimonial, Vivi.

I'm certainly with you all the way regarding H1.

I gotta say my tolerance for the PE Pacific Salt's need for frequent sharpening is way lower than yours. Eight years? I relegated mine to the garden as a beater almost immediately.

I'm more enthusiastic about SE hawkbills (have three in H1) and wharncliffes (have two in H1) than bellied blades (have one in H1). SE blades tend to chatter on some materials in my experience. Perhaps this tendency is related to degree of sharpness, but you have mentioned altering your cutting technique to achieve a straight cut.

Can you elaborate? I suspect the chattering and curving tendencies may be related.

If so, overcoming them might fulfill the promise of longer cutting edge in SE than in PE over the same length of edge.
No I can assure you that I didn't steal "Vivi's" identity :rolleyes: :D But I've got to say at this point that it seems like my long time of preaching the GOSPEL of SPYDEREDGES has indeed paid off in a way I never expected it to. But his conversion to the Spyderedge is somewhat similar to the one I experienced. My very first Spyder was the fully serrated, GIN-1, stainless handled MARINER model. Up to that point I had never owned a premium quality serrated edge knife other than a few bargain basement serrated kitchen knives that I used on food and mainly in the kitchen or at Bar B Que events.

Now I still haven't done a 180 degree flip like Vivi claims to have experienced in rather short order too. As much as I love my hard use, companion blades that I carry daily which are mostly serrated Hawkbill models or designated hard use folders like my beloved stainless handled RESCUE model i.e. C-45. When I experienced how great the Spyderedge was in hard use I never looked back and now would like to see every great Spyderco model be made available in Spyderedge ( like most of them used to be back in the late 90s/early 2000s).

I can't wait to see Vivi test drive some of the extremely good models like the Spyderedged Ayoob, JD Smith and even the classic 440V Military model from that wonderful era. The Spyderedged Ayoob and JD Smith and C-36 Military all "MUST" return. Because now that there are seasoned professionals being converted ( like Brother Vivi) to the awesome advantages of the Spyderedge it only makes sense that these guys should be shown how good the all time great SE models are.

If I had an extra set to spare I would see that Brother Vivi would be introduced to the awesome sharpening tool known as the Spyderco 701Profiles ( which are going to return soon according to Sal). Because when you sharpen Spyderedges to perfection they are truly indeed an awesome cutting tool. With this trend toward Spyderedge conversion growing legs it only makes sense to unleash the best serrated edge sharpening tool that Spyderco every concocted i.e. the awesome 701 Profiles>> they will return for good this time I can assure you. We are seeing a historical awakening to the outright awesome potential of the Spyderedge. It has truly begun in grand fashion.
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