Nice shiny Bevels??

[ZrowsN1s]

I am not trying to talk anybody out of stropping or out of refining their edges up to 12,000 or whatever they like but rather just want to make the point that you do not have to do that to achieve high performance. If you are going to put in all the time it takes to progress through all the grits then when you are done you should be sharp enough to whittle hairs or else you have wasted a lot of your time since that level of performance can easily be achieved without all that work.

You do make a good point, as I said in my first post, it is really important that you get it sharp at 600 before moving up to the next grit, otherwise when you refine the "teeth" you will actually make the knife duller. You are also right that my statement was probably too generalized and ignores too many factor to be a universal truth. But in my own experience I prefer the performance of a "glass" edge to a toothy edge, I like smooth clean cuts.

[bearfacedkiller]

We agree a lot more on this one than we disagree. I will never part with my SB Delica simply because of the ridiculously high level of sharpness I can get out of it. It is one of the few knives I can get so sharp that I am afraid to even touch the edge. I used to be on the quest for the edge that could split atoms but have since backed off in fear of starting a chain reaction. :D

[ZrowsN1s]

I used to be on the quest for the edge that could split atoms but have since backed off in fear of starting a chain reaction. :D

Lulz :cool:

I suspect I won't be satisfied until I have a blade that can cut through space and time into other dimensions. It wouldn't be a proper obsession if i didn't take it too far. :D

*When it comes to really sharp I've had the best luck with Hap40 and ZDP, I only own 1 piece of Super Blue and I haven't really done much to it sharpening wise (it was expensive and it's not easily replaceable so it doesn't get used very hard or often, doesn't even have a patina yet) but you've inspired me to tinker away on it a little this week and see how sharp I can get it.

[chuck_roxas45]

I used to polish and refine both bevels and edges. I didn't really find any advantages a highly refined edge had over a coarser edge(400-600 grit) for most of my EDC tasks. I still do like a polished bevel for aesthetic purposes.

Lots of darksiders have pursued that ultimate atom splitting edge, they've since turned away from refined edges to coarser edges. That should tell you something.

[Jazz]

I tell you what, I slipped with my polished wood carving knife once, and opened a big *** flap if skin like nothing, but I still finish all other knives (professional chef knives included) on fine ceramic (plates, at work), and strop on cardboard or paper. They shave and get the job done. If you enjoy polishing, awesome. We all have to enjoy something. Like Sal says, "all good, just different".

Now serrations... well, they need to be polished, in my opinion.

[ZrowsN1s]

Now serrations... well, they need to be polished, in my opinion.

On a microscopic level edge polishing IS polishing tiny serrations :D

[Jazz]

On a microscopic level edge polishing IS polishing tiny serrations :D

Okay, Z. :p

... but I still like what I like. :D

[Surfingringo]

There are some great posts in this thread. I agree completely with pretty much every point that Darby made. Zrown, in reference to the points you made about refined edges outperforming coarse when both are at peak sharpness, like Darby said, it depends greatly on what you are cutting. I can promise you that if you are talking about rope cutting then a well sharpened coarse edge will leave a polished edge in the dust. A good test it to get yourself some 3/4" hard polypropylene rope. Double it over in one hand and slice through it with one of those hair splitting polished edges. It will slide all over that rope without cutting it. A 600 grit finish will sail through it like butter.

Sorry to revive a necrothread but someone referenced it in another post so I figured what the heck. :D

[ZrowsN1s]

There are some great posts in this thread. I agree completely with pretty much every point that Darby made. Zrown, in reference to the points you made about refined edges outperforming coarse when both are at peak sharpness, like Darby said, it depends greatly on what you are cutting. I can promise you that if you are talking about rope cutting then a well sharpened coarse edge will leave a polished edge in the dust. A good test it to get yourself some 3/4" hard polypropylene rope. Double it over in one hand no slice through it with one of those hair splitting polished edges. It will slide all over that rope without cutting it. A 600 grit finish will sail through it like butter.

Sorry to revive a necrothread but someone referenced it in another post so I figured what the heck. :D

:D It's all good. Without getting to far down the rabbit hole, I wanted to expand a bit on you point about coarse edges.
So (on the same knife at the same angle) a coarse edge, due to the size of the grit, will be measurably (under an electron microscope) wider at the apex, than a highly refined edge. In other words if we are defining sharp as the width of the very apex, the highly refined edge, is smaller/sharper (we are talkin nm's but it IS smaller). See what I'm trying to get at? Are you saying that the measurably sharper highly refined edge will not cut as well through a rope as the duller/wider at the apex coarse edge? In other words are you saying duller cuts better, or does "sharp" by your definition also include the level of refinement, not just the width at the very Apex? Does that make any sense? :o

[murphjd25]

So pretty! Just got this done today.

[fanglekai]

For me it's not worth the hassle to bother polishing bevels. The knives cut just fine. YMMV.

[Surfingringo]

There are some great posts in this thread. I agree completely with pretty much every point that Darby made. Zrown, in reference to the points you made about refined edges outperforming coarse when both are at peak sharpness, like Darby said, it depends greatly on what you are cutting. I can promise you that if you are talking about rope cutting then a well sharpened coarse edge will leave a polished edge in the dust. A good test it to get yourself some 3/4" hard polypropylene rope. Double it over in one hand no slice through it with one of those hair splitting polished edges. It will slide all over that rope without cutting it. A 600 grit finish will sail through it like butter.

Sorry to revive a necrothread but someone referenced it in another post so I figured what the heck. :D

:D It's all good. Without getting to far down the rabbit hole, I wanted to expand a bit on you point about coarse edges.
So (on the same knife at the same angle) a coarse edge, due to the size of the grit, will be measurably (under an electron microscope) wider at the apex, than a highly refined edge. In other words if we are defining sharp as the width of the very apex, the highly refined edge, is smaller/sharper (we are talkin nm's but it IS smaller). See what I'm trying to get at? Are you saying that the measurably sharper highly refined edge will not cut as well through a rope as the duller/wider at the apex coarse edge? In other words are you saying duller cuts better, or does "sharp" by your definition also include the level of refinement, not just the width at the very Apex? Does that make any sense? :o

I would not normally call the polished edge sharper but rather more refined. i suppose if the apex of the refined edge is marginally more narrow than the narrowest parts of the teeth of the coarse edge (for the record, im not certain if that would be the case) then it could be termed as "sharper". But to answer your question, yes, it (the coarse edge) would perform much better at that task even if it wasn't technically as sharp. The same way, as a more extreme example, a dull fillet knife would work better for filleting a fish than a razor sharp axe. That doesn't make the fillet knife sharp, just more suited to the task.

[ZrowsN1s]

I would not normally call the polished edge sharper but rather more refined. i suppose if the apex of the refined edge is marginally more narrow than the narrowest parts of the teeth of the coarse edge (for the record, im not certain if that would be the case) then it could be termed as "sharper". But to answer your question, yes, it (the coarse edge) would perform much better at that task even if it wasn't technically as sharp. The same way, as a more extreme example, a dull fillet knife would work better for filleting a fish than a razor sharp axe. That doesn't make the fillet knife sharp, just more suited to the task.

I don't actually doubt that coarse edges are best for rope, I've heard it from many, and I trust your real world testing. I was just trying to see if I could prove RLDubbya's point on the other thread that people mean different things when they say "sharp".
Not really sure I made the case, but I tried


murphjd25 that is a fine looking knife and edge :D

Just gave super blue a polish yesterday.

[anagarika]

Nice! :D

I'm trying to do my VG10 E4 FFG. Someof the original factory grits are too deep so I probably leave them behind (the surrounding already mirrored.

[chuck_roxas45]

My experience is when I have to do a lot of cutting is that a coarse edge lasts longer than a micron finished edge. If I just wanted to slice open letters and packages(shaping wood also needs a fine edge), I would absolutely go for the soundless cut of a refined edge.

[anagarika]

Hey Chuck,

Long time didn't see you ... Still busy with new hobby?

Perhaps I'm addicted to the silent sailing through a mirrored edge does on packages, etc.
Besides, I shave with my Spydies, so polished is good for me. :o :D

[bearfacedkiller]

:D It's all good. Without getting to far down the rabbit hole, I wanted to expand a bit on you point about coarse edges.
So (on the same knife at the same angle) a coarse edge, due to the size of the grit, will be measurably (under an electron microscope) wider at the apex, than a highly refined edge. In other words if we are defining sharp as the width of the very apex, the highly refined edge, is smaller/sharper (we are talkin nm's but it IS smaller). See what I'm trying to get at? Are you saying that the measurably sharper highly refined edge will not cut as well through a rope as the duller/wider at the apex coarse edge? In other words are you saying duller cuts better, or does "sharp" by your definition also include the level of refinement, not just the width at the very Apex? Does that make any sense? :o

I think that saying that the apex, or 3 microns from the apex, gets thinner as you progress through grits is only true depending on technique.

Folks who sharpen freehand should create a convex profile due to slight variations from stroke to stroke unless they are applying heavy pressure. Folks who use a guided system or some sort of jig will produce much straighter edges to the profile but making them perfectly straight cannot be guaranteed either. The author of that website, in my eyes, made assumptions that largely hinge on sharpening technique. He stated that up to 4k he was getting some convexing of the apex but that after that the apex was thinning/deconvexing as the finer abrasives stopped removing metal as fast. The specific grit at which that happens should vary from person to person, technique to technique and steel to steel. Pressure applied will have a significant effect on this.

For example, when sharpening it is actually quite easy to produce a concave profile up to the apex in that last few microns. This is done by applying too much pressure thus flexing the very apex out of the way and removing metal just behind it. The apex then flexes back and leaves a concave profile or, if done too much, a wire edge. This is called undercutting the edge. This is a classic rookie mistake caused by applying too much pressure which many newbies do. These beginners as first find that they have just produced the sharpest edge they have ever had and are elated until they find edge retention is basically non existent. Edge retention suffers because either the wire edge starts folding back and forth or because it just doesn't have any meat in it to survive wear. Sometimes a wire edge, in my experience since I was a newb once too, will dull very fast and then even get sharper again. I think this is the wire edge folding around and then coming off or wearing off. A wire edge caused by undercutting the apex while similar is not exactly the same as a bur. This can all be avoided by using light pressure which is why I try to always mention that to new sharpeners asking questions. The apex is so crazy thin that is flexes quite easily. For the final strokes the weight of the knife is sufficient in my opinion.

My point being that I do not agree that finer abrasives by themselves thin the apex but that consistent strokes and light pressure do. This post is not meant to pick a side. I truly enjoy both coarse edges and refined edges. For clarification this is all referencing the apex, not the whole bevel.

Sorry ,we are sort of mashing two threads together now. :o

[bearfacedkiller]

Here is a interesting video. I am not advocating an edge this coarse but his results are impressive.

He tries to shave on his left arm and realizes he has no hair left on it so he goes to his right. Yup! Been there... :o

https://youtu.be/j032eLxxhzc

[chuck_roxas45]

Hey Chuck,

Long time didn't see you ... Still busy with new hobby?

Perhaps I'm addicted to the silent sailing through a mirrored edge does on packages, etc.
Besides, I shave with my Spydies, so polished is good for me. :o :D

Hey Chris, absolutely tailor an edge to your uses. Refined edge is definitely better for shaving(been there done that :D).

I'm only here on breaks on the radio haha. But I do sharpen while I'm listening. :D

[ZrowsN1s]

I think that saying that the apex, or 3 microns from the apex, gets thinner as you progress through grits is only true depending on technique.

Folks who sharpen freehand should create a convex profile due to slight variations from stroke to stroke unless they are applying heavy pressure. Folks who use a guided system or some sort of jig will produce much straighter edges to the profile but making them perfectly straight cannot be guaranteed either. The author of that website, in my eyes, made assumptions that largely hinge on sharpening technique. He stated that up to 4k he was getting some convexing of the apex but that after that the apex was thinning/deconvexing as the finer abrasives stopped removing metal as fast. The specific grit at which that happens should vary from person to person, technique to technique and steel to steel. Pressure applied will have a significant effect on this....
...My point being that I do not agree that finer abrasives by themselves thin the apex but that consistent strokes and light pressure do. This post is not meant to pick a side. I truly enjoy both coarse edges and refined edges. For clarification this is all referencing the apex, not the whole bevel.

Sorry ,we are sort of mashing two threads together now. :o

No worries.

I agree, practice and technique is Everything. I imagine even if someone were using my guided rod system, even if I dialed in the angle myself for them, and eliminated all other variables, they would still get different results than I would using my own equipment just from the pressure and control differences in the sharpening "strokes". The author does mention some of this briefly,
.."The primary goal of stropping is to reduce the edge width by increasing the bevel angle near the apex (micro-convexity). Abrasive particles (paste, spray, etc) are applied to the strop to increase the rate of abrasion. The edge geometry that is achieved will depend on the type and size of abrasive, the strop material and the pressure and number of stropping laps applied. Although simple in principle, consistent results can be difficult to achieve due to the number of variables and their effects."