Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:18 pm

Hi,

Cardboard mostly, plastic packaging you know the usual stuff nothing serious and no hard use too tiny for that and prefer to keep my hands out of cut material.

My concern is simple after experiencing this metal rotating on FRN without washers ummm yeah wear will happen, as a former professional automotive tech for Mercedes and before that a small engine mechanic wear patterns are what we look for steel against plastic = no go
:)

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:26 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:18 pm
Hi,

Cardboard mostly, plastic packaging you know the usual stuff nothing serious and no hard use too tiny for that and prefer to keep my hands out of cut material.

My concern is simple after experiencing this metal rotating on FRN without washers ummm yeah wear will happen, as a former professional automotive tech for Mercedes and before that a small engine mechanic wear patterns are what we look for steel against plastic = no go
Thanks. Yeah that's definitely not hard use and should not have become an issue for you. I'm sorry for your misfortune. I've worked my Manix pretty hard a few times, even moderately batoned for kindling wood for camping fires just for the heck of it with no blade play afterwards. Obviously different models, but I'm quite surprised at your findings from typical edc use.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:09 pm

So was I. It it has been okay since tightening. Just odd is all.
:)

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Nate » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:53 am

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:30 pm

Never said anything about Linerless G10.

“NATIVE 5 SALT”

“LINERLESS FRN”

This knife only comes in “FRN”

And I didn' t quote you. However, this is a thread about the Chief, which was just shown to be linerless g10 construction in the Amsterdam meet thread. Much grumbling has ensued about that here and also over in the Meet thread.

The Chief only comes in “G-10.”
:spyder:

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby 5-by-5 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:11 am

Popsickle wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:42 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:03 pm
Not a fan of liner-less construction especially on larger blades. There is enough play in the smaller ones I have. Hope this is not a trend to get prices down. I would rather pay a bit more for more solid durable quality.
My linerless manix 2 is solid as the day I bought it with no play. I expect the same from the chief
Same here. My Manix LW Maxamet in my pocket now.

I love my linerless Fluted CF Native. The Chief will be just as great and light weight.

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby ferider » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:42 am

LW is not equal LW. A pic shows more than 1000 words:

Image

If the Chief has "Pivot liners" screwed/riveted to a steel backspacer like the Manix LW on the left, I'll get one. If it has no liners at all, like the back-lock on the right, I won't.

Roland.
Last edited by ferider on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:47 am

ferider wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:42 am
LW is not equal LW. A pic shows more than 1000 words:

Image

If the Chief has "Pivot liners" screwed/revited to a steel backspacer like the Manix LW on the left, I'll get one. If it has no liners at all, like the back-lock on the right, I won't.

Roland.
Agreed I am with you on this.
:)

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Nate » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:16 am

We all have criteria to make decisions on where we put our money, but this concern feels like a red herring to me. Went looking for examples of blade play issues on the Backlock Manix, couldn't come up with anything.

Could it happen at some point? Sure, but this is true of pretty much any folder, given enough time and use (or abuse). To be honest I've never worried about a bit of play anyway (vertical or horizontal,) as long as the lock is reliable. If I did, I would have had to hold my nose and sell my Super Blue Calys, with their full steel liners, or my linerless white micarta Jess Horn II. It isn't going to happen. :D

Maybe to be safe one could say linerless g-10 is not a construction meant for hard use. Fine with me. I do not use my folders hard, just for cutting. Have plenty of fixed blades and other tools for "abuse."
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doc Dan » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:31 am

The fact is Cold Steel and others have been making linerless knives for hard use for years and they are near indestructible. It is not the fact that a knife is linerless, normally, but the construction and tolerances of the knife. I can tell you from personal experience of doing things with linerless knives that would make you blanch and never a problem. I, for one, and happy the Native Chief will be linerless G10.

I really find this to be an elegant design and this is my most looked-foreward-to knife to date.
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Albatross » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:39 am

Speculation is pointless, because it's just that. When it is available we will find out what kind of knife it is. Until then, it's all irrelevant.
sal wrote:
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby VashHash » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:34 am

Mr Blonde wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:49 am
I have to say that the Native Chief was my favorite of the new knives that Spyderco showed at the meet. Call it nostalgia, as I remember seeing that concept design on the forums back in 1999 or so. This was back in the day, when you had to put a knife on a flatbed scanner, cover it with a cloth and you had a digital image you could share online! That first design was added to the wonderful mini-museum display of the native in the Spyderco Factory Outlet. The current Native Chief flows from the current Native 5 design, and features linerless G-10 handle construction and everything else you’re familiar with on a G-10 Native five, just a lot longer!

This knife felt very light and solid in the hand. It felt lighter and thinner than the Emphasis. The Native Chief’s long slender blade also reminded me of a large Calypso. I can’t wait to get my hands on my own production sample of the native Chief, it’s very high on my wish list!

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Specifications
Overall Length: 23,1 cm / 9.09 inches
Blade Length: 10,4 cm / 4.09 inches
Blade Thickness: 3 mm / 0.11 inches
Weight: 76 grams / 2.68 ounces

I have no information on pricing or specific release dates.
Feel like this had to be posted here too so it's not lost in the Amsterdam thread.

This is probably my most anticipated knife of 2019. Always wanted a bigger native and the shaman wasn't quite big enough. Glad I held out for this design.

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Pelagic » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:07 am

I personally own and love my Recon 1. It has linerless G10, and as mentioned, it's virtually indestructable. But... The Native Chief isn't exactly going to be built like that, with that bulky and sturdy of a handle (which is fine, even though I am learning to like thicker handles these days - a fuller, better grip). With a few exceptions, this community isn't exactly known for appreciating toughness in folders, and most people here will always see liners as unnecessary. I do think the Native Chief is more of a specialized cutting tool compared to the Recon 1 (which is more of a "jack of all trades" tool that just happens to cut exceptionally well) so toughness isn't as necessary. But I'd personally like to see almost any model have liners that isn't a lightweight. They can be highly skeletonized, and they don't have to be that thick. With a blade over 4 inches, the Chief (during use) will see more accidental lateral stress at the pivot than a Native, that's just the nature of the beast (leverage). Despite using blue loctite, I occasionally have to re-tighten pivots after use like someone mentioned before. Liners don't even remedy this issue, but they help. I hope the chief has pivot liners as previously mentioned.

Common responses are often along the lines of "what are you cutting?" or "get a fixed blade", or "if you're using it properly, (insert anything involving toughness) X isn't necessary". But if we could just look at the Military for a second. It essentially checks all my boxes in regard to construction for toughness, most notably liners and large pivot washers. I don't think the military is overly heavy, but a knife's weight is always somehow a deal breaker for some. What I see with the Military, in use, is not having to re-tighten the pivot nearly as often as some other models. Along with liner locks, back locks also yield the option for larger pivot washers, which ideally I'd like to see. Disappointed is too strong of a word, but I have lost a teeny bit of hype toward this model. Just my opinion.
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doc Dan » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:55 am

The Native Chief is what I want the Military to be: a back lock with a good, useable, pointed blade. It will replace my Millie in my rotation if it is as nice as I think it is. Sal has been listening. THANK YOU SAL.
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Nikkogi » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:07 am

The Native Chief is literally the Spyderco I’ve been waiting for. One of my all time favorite knives is the Native 5. I have nearly every variation ever produced. Believe it or not, my most carried knife is the Native 5 LW. It’s absolutely bombproof and perfect build quality.

I bought a DLC combo edge N5 for a contractor friend, you wouldn’t believe all the abuse he puts it through. He’s been very impressed.

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:10 am

The Native Chief looks like the magical combination of the old C54 Calypso and the current linerless G10 Native5. Outstanding! I would like to see a subtle swedge like those knives have but that isn't too difficult of a mod.

I want one in Cruwear and K390. Thanks! Also, BHQ, you better make this happen! Mmm... Jade/M4 Chief. :)
-Darby
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:24 am

I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?
:)

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Pelagic » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:06 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:24 am
I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?
It's really just an obsession with weight reduction within the community. They don't want weak or delicate knives of course, but one's definition of delicate varies. They just want a knife that is absolutely as light as possible without sacrificing what they deem a significant amount of durability. This means no liners, extremely lightweight handle material, open construction, an extremely thin blade, etc. I've never been in this camp. BRING ON THE WEIGHT. It simply does not bother me. I never expect a folding knife to be as strong as a fixed blade. But I certainly value a robust pivot and lock, as well as more durable blade geometries. I like having the proverbial light sabre on hand, but IMO not every knife needs to be ground like a box cutter. I enjoy carrying 2 knives: one is either an excellent slicer or something with obscene edge retention, and one is either a "beater" knife or a more durable/hard use knife. I feel I am part of an extreme minority in this regard and that most people basically want every model to be an extremely lightweight slicer.
Pancake wrote:
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Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
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Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby Sumdumguy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:52 pm

There is still time to liner-ify it!

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby pinepig2 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:09 pm

The added weight of skeletonized, embedded liners can't be much. There's certainly less steel required than exposed liners. They seem like the perfect balance for the added strength and longevity you get.

I'm leaning towards no more knife purchases that don't have embedded liners (unless titanium scales are used, of course). Or at least G10/CF scales with partial embedded liners around the pivot area. Every time I refine my purchase criteria like that it always points back to the first-gen VG10 Stretch. Although I'd really like a Golden-made, lock-back knife that satisfied those criteria.

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Re: Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

Postby anycal » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:01 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:24 am
I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?
Based on my experience, it hasn't been a problem. My experience with Native, that is.

I had the S35VN LW Native 5 for few years. No liners or washers. It has been used in rivers, pools, rainy/muddy hikes. Tumbled down a dune once with it in my pocket, which exposed it to lot of sand. No issues with the pivot action.

I have the linerless G10 version as well. This one has washers, with one side on the blade, the other on the G10. In this setup, it also doesn't appear to be an issue. All the movement happens between the washer and the blade interface, as it is smoother. As far as I can tell, there is no movement between the washer and G10.

The tolerances should be pretty good, where something like sand should not make it between the blade and either plastic or washer.

I am pretty sure I am getting the Chief when it comes out. But for a knife of this size, I too wish it has at least some liner on the pivot and stop pin.
Peter


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