Native Chief - Can we get a heartbeat?

[Wartstein]

As the whole back of the Chief´s handle has steel in it (lockbar / backspacer..) the knife should be plenty rigid, as already stated in the "Amsterdam" thread.

Now what I´d really be interested in: When it comes to rigidity: How does a linerless G10 model with a full steel back compare to a lets say compression lock model with liners, but open back?
I know that this can´t be answered generally, for it depends also on the particular overall construction of a given model. But still for me it is an interesting question.

I´d assume, that when it comes to flexing the handle sideways, the full steel back, but linerless knife could be even more rigid?
When it comes to "squeezing" the handle maybe the open back,but linered one by a little amount?

What do you think?

It's a valid question that I don't have an answer to. However, I don't think the lock bar will do a whole lot to help the rigidity of the knife as it's a moving part.

Really? I personally think that when it comes to lateral / sideways rigidity, it should not matter that the lockbar is a moving part, since it is just moving up and down (as opposed to side to side).

The effect on the strength and rigidity of the knife in every plane, from the the lockbar, liners, scales, fixings size and location etc is going to vary with each model and material.

The real questions are simply whether the combination of all these does the job or not, and whether or not you like the look & feel of it. The first question matters to everyone, the second matters to no-one but yourself!

That sums it up perfectly!

[BigKenbo]

I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?

It's really just an obsession with weight reduction within the community. They don't want weak or delicate knives of course, but one's definition of delicate varies. They just want a knife that is absolutely as light as possible without sacrificing what they deem a significant amount of durability. This means no liners, extremely lightweight handle material, open construction, an extremely thin blade, etc. I've never been in this camp. BRING ON THE WEIGHT. It simply does not bother me. I never expect a folding knife to be as strong as a fixed blade. But I certainly value a robust pivot and lock, as well as more durable blade geometries. I like having the proverbial light sabre on hand, but IMO not every knife needs to be ground like a box cutter. I enjoy carrying 2 knives: one is either an excellent slicer or something with obscene edge retention, and one is either a "beater" knife or a more durable/hard use knife. I feel I am part of an extreme minority in this regard and that most people basically want every model to be an extremely lightweight slicer.

Exactly why i carry at least 3 knives at all times. I have different tools for different jobs. Also kind of fun to see the look on someones face when i grab one out of my boot! I assure you i will own a Native Chief as soo as one is available. (Personally id surrender some body parts for a maxamet version!

[BigKenbo]

Thanx.

Actually Eric and Tom went over this model with the engineers for quite a while before making the decision to make it liner-less. We've done a lot of experimenting lately and you can see a lot in the many different designs and options. It surprises me that some would think to make decisions on values without any experience. if we screwed it up, we'll fix it, but we don't screw up often considering the many envelopes we're willing to push.

sal

Thank you. For my part i have some linered and some non-linered spydies. Love both types. Id buy a gray G10 linered native 5 maxamet, because i love the LW one so much. Id love to grab a native chief as well. You guys do a great job. And i am sure when its released it will be stellar. Even if you decide to tweak it later. Be Blessed

[Wartstein]

I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?

It's really just an obsession with weight reduction within the community. They don't want weak or delicate knives of course, but one's definition of delicate varies. They just want a knife that is absolutely as light as possible without sacrificing what they deem a significant amount of durability. This means no liners, extremely lightweight handle material, open construction, an extremely thin blade, etc. I've never been in this camp. BRING ON THE WEIGHT. It simply does not bother me. I never expect a folding knife to be as strong as a fixed blade. But I certainly value a robust pivot and lock, as well as more durable blade geometries. I like having the proverbial light sabre on hand, but IMO not every knife needs to be ground like a box cutter. I enjoy carrying 2 knives: one is either an excellent slicer or something with obscene edge retention, and one is either a "beater" knife or a more durable/hard use knife. I feel I am part of an extreme minority in this regard and that most people basically want every model to be an extremely lightweight slicer.

Exactly why i carry at least 3 knives at all times. I have different tools for different jobs. Also kind of fun to see the look on someones face when i grab one out of my boot! I assure you i will own a Native Chief as soo as one is available. (Personally id surrender some body parts for a maxamet version!

If I´d carry two or more knives (which I personally don´t and don´t want to normally), that would really change a lot. In THAT case my second knife would probably (also) be a very stout, "pry-bar-ish" beater with maybe quite soft, but ultra tough steel (and my first knife even more likely a rather thin and slicey one as it is anyway, when I carry only one).

Some time ago I started a thread where I proposed a Dyad with two blades in different steels (one very tough while not focussing on edge retention, one very hard, maybe even a bit brittle, for one could always use the tough blade for tasks where chipping is a concern). (! The idea of such a Dyad in 2 different steels was NOT really mine orignially!! Someone else (don´t have the time to search for that righzt now) had the idea of kind of "Mule" Dyad where one could directly compare different steels).

[BigKenbo]

I have read all the arguments in favor of Linerless knives. They are good points, but no one has addressed the glaring flaw in the concept. If you put steel rotating against what is essentially plastic without washers or liners of any kind do you not think that material like sand for example will not come into play with the pivot and surface contact areas?

It's really just an obsession with weight reduction within the community. They don't want weak or delicate knives of course, but one's definition of delicate varies. They just want a knife that is absolutely as light as possible without sacrificing what they deem a significant amount of durability. This means no liners, extremely lightweight handle material, open construction, an extremely thin blade, etc. I've never been in this camp. BRING ON THE WEIGHT. It simply does not bother me. I never expect a folding knife to be as strong as a fixed blade. But I certainly value a robust pivot and lock, as well as more durable blade geometries. I like having the proverbial light sabre on hand, but IMO not every knife needs to be ground like a box cutter. I enjoy carrying 2 knives: one is either an excellent slicer or something with obscene edge retention, and one is either a "beater" knife or a more durable/hard use knife. I feel I am part of an extreme minority in this regard and that most people basically want every model to be an extremely lightweight slicer.

Exactly why i carry at least 3 knives at all times. I have different tools for different jobs. Also kind of fun to see the look on someones face when i grab one out of my boot! I assure you i will own a Native Chief as soo as one is available. (Personally id surrender some body parts for a maxamet version!

If I´d carry two or more knives (which I personally don´t and don´t want to normally), that would really change a lot. In THAT case my second knife would probably (also) be a very stout, "pry-bar-ish" beater with maybe quite soft, but ultra tough steel (and my first knife even more likely a rather thin and slicey one as it is anyway, when I carry only one).

Some time ago I started a thread where I proposed a Dyad with two blades in different steels (one very tough while not focussing on edge retention, one very hard, maybe even a bit brittle, for one could always use the tough blade for tasks where chipping is a concern). (! The idea of such a Dyad in 2 different steels was NOT really mine orignially!! Someone else (don´t have the time to search for that righzt now) had the idea of kind of "Mule" Dyad where one could directly compare different steels).

Thats actually a great idea! I find i need a smaller slicer im looking for my N5 in s110v or maxamet usually. Larger is an endura 4 and i my have an additional endura in my boot. I also carry a full tang fixed blade if i may be in need of a tougher blade. I am a different sort i suppose. But if im building something i wear bags so my tools are on me. And i carry more than one drill bit/driver bit, as a "for instance". So at 6-5 240 a few knives, dont weigh me down much. **** i carry two guns when i hunt too. I am super excited by this Native Chief though!!!

[vivi]

I also carry a full tang fixed blade if i may be in need of a tougher blade.

What an incredibly sensible thing to do. Others take note

[Wartstein]

If I´d carry two or more knives (which I personally don´t and don´t want to normally), that would really change a lot. In THAT case my second knife would probably (also) be a very stout, "pry-bar-ish" beater with maybe quite soft, but ultra tough steel (and my first knife even more likely a rather thin and slicey one as it is anyway, when I carry only one).

Some time ago I started a thread where I proposed a Dyad with two blades in different steels (one very tough while not focussing on edge retention, one very hard, maybe even a bit brittle, for one could always use the tough blade for tasks where chipping is a concern). (! The idea of such a Dyad in 2 different steels was NOT really mine orignially!! Someone else (don´t have the time to search for that righzt now) had the idea of kind of "Mule" Dyad where one could directly compare different steels).

Thats actually a great idea! I find i need a smaller slicer im looking for my N5 in s110v or maxamet usually. Larger is an endura 4 and i my have an additional endura in my boot. I also carry a full tang fixed blade if i may be in need of a tougher blade. I am a different sort i suppose. But if im building something i wear bags so my tools are on me. And i carry more than one drill bit/driver bit, as a "for instance". So at 6-5 240 a few knives, dont weigh me down much. **** i carry two guns when i hunt too. I am super excited by this Native Chief though!!!

Wow, that's a lot of "edc"!

/ Regarding a Dyad in two different steels: Yep, good idea, I think so too.. and, again, really NOT mine originally ,as I'd like to point out. So credits to whomever had it first.. :)

[Deadboxhero]

I'm real curious to see this and the Police 4 side by side.

Same
Probably carries better, I've been rocking the P4 as my EDC most of 2019 and 2018. This seems more streamlined.

Hope they have one at the show next week. If so I'll snag a shot of them together.

Which show? That'd be awesome if you could do that. The Police 4 is my go to outside of work.

I got the go ahead from Eric to take a pic.

Just a hasty pic.




The size, weight and feel is perfect.

Just needs something like 15v

[Wartstein]

Thanks a lot for the pic, that's really helpfull. Shows how much smaller than a Police the Chief actually is. In fact, it's between an Endura and a Police in size, but closer to the Endura when it comes to overall length, and closer to the Police when it comes to bladelength.
So that logically would mean, the Chief offers the best blade to handle ratio.

I may repeat the specs Wouter gave to us, alongside with the Enduras:
Overall: Police lw 10", Chief 9.09", Endura 8.75 "
Blade: Police lw 4.37, Chief 4.09, Endura 3.75

What I still can't fully believe are the weights Wouter measured, once more compared to the Endura:
Endura 3.4, Police lw 2.99, Chief 2.68...(remember, like the smaller Endura the FRN Police HAS liners as far as I know, so how could it ever be that much lighter?)

Anyway, the more compact size makes it easier for me to decide for the Chief amongst the two upcoming large-folder-offerings...(Chief and Police lw)

[wrdwrght]

Oh, is this comparison excellent, or what!?

[Albatross]

These pictures are crushing my self control...

[Cycletroll]

Thanks for the pic Shawn!
I often carry the P4 and have a slew of Endura variants but have always missed the brown Calypso I stupidly sold
The Chief brings back some of that lovely line with the choil and nice stabby point. I like the linerless Manix backlock too so this should be a nice hybrid/evolution. Can't wait!

[vivi]

I'm real curious to see this and the Police 4 side by side.

Same
Probably carries better, I've been rocking the P4 as my EDC most of 2019 and 2018. This seems more streamlined.

Hope they have one at the show next week. If so I'll snag a shot of them together.

Which show? That'd be awesome if you could do that. The Police 4 is my go to outside of work.

I got the go ahead from Eric to take a pic.

Just a hasty pic.




The size, weight and feel is perfect.

Just needs something like 15v

Thanks!

Definitely looks like it has a better handle to blade ratio. Seeing the two lined up like that, I can tell that handle ergonomics will work really well for me. I like the deeper choil and lack of a thumb ramp. It will be a lot more comfortable choked up in the choil.

If this sells well, I wonder what the first sprint will be?

[Wartstein]

It's funny, I really was not interested in the Chief at first, even when I saw Wouters pic for the first time. Thought it would be too long and the tip to fragile for me.
But meanwhile I definitely want to try out that knife, partly based also on the convincing and interesting comments in my "4 " plus..." thread.

What I still can't believe is the weight Wouter measured for the Chief. I may copy and paste the numbers for Endura, Police lw and Chief once more here:

Endura 3.4, Police lw 2.99, Chief 2.68...
any thoughts on that by anyone? Quite unlikely, isn't it? 

[ABX2011]

Looks awesome! I agree the weights for the Police Lightweight and Chief seem off.

[Enactive]

I am quite excited about the Chief! I agree that the 2.68 oz is more likely 3.68. Maybe a typo? Seems like it should be under 4 oz even with the full steel backspacer.

It's funny, I really was not interested in the Chief at first, even when I saw Wouters pic for the first time. Thought it would be too long and the tip to fragile for me.
But meanwhile I definitely want to try out that knife, partly based also on the convincing and interesting comments in my "4 " plus..." thread.

What I still can't believe is the weight Wouter measured for the Chief. I may copy and paste the numbers for Endura, Police lw and Chief once more here:

Endura 3.4, Police lw 2.99, Chief 2.68...
any thoughts on that by anyone? Quite unlikely, isn't it? 

[vivi]

I'd imagine both the Chief and P4LW will be 4oz or a hair less. Seems either should be lighter than the G10 P4, but heavier than an Endura.

[Doc Dan]

I like everything I am seeing on the NC. The large pivot, ergonomic, yet sleek handle, nice pointy blade with a decent length, great lock, and much more. I wish this were released yesterday.

[Enactive]

3.9 oz $240 retail, so MAP is about $160. Sweet!

https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C244G/1786

[Reference_Sensor]

Definitely looking forward to getting my hands on the Native Chief! It is reminiscent of the original Calypso, which is and always has been one of my favorite knives of all time.