Spyderco/Phil Wilson Bow River

[soundshaman]

I feel the enthusiast in me wants the high end quality like the sprig I recently got. Or alteast medium quality with a 154cm/s30v. But it's certainly easier to talk a hobby fisherman friend into trying a new spydie with it being a third or quarter of the price of the sprig.
I think Spyderco will make many more models of Phil's designs. I'll just be patient and hope for one of each price point.
Superblue, M4 or any of the non-stainless will be nice too with Phil's thin designs.

[bearfacedkiller]

We seem to be talking about two different things, the Bow River and a fillet knife.

I am not excited about a Chinese made Bow River or a Chinese fillet knife if the goal is to produce a lower end model.

I would like to see a high end fillet knife as well as an affordable fillet knife. I would like to see the affordable fillet knife be a part of the current kitchen lineup. MBS26 is a good steel and that maker should be able to make a fillet knife at a price point that could compete with Dexter Russell and Rapala fillet knives. No need to make it in China. I would like the high end fillet knife to represent one of Phil's customs.

As far as the Bow River goes. I would also want to see a mid range knife at least.

I might add, the throwing knives are a fixed blade collaboration and they are made in China.

[Bugs]

Seems to me that there are so many low cost fillet knives on the market (Rapala, Bubba Blade, Dexter Russel, Victorinox etc. etc.) that the competition would be pretty stiff to make a dent in that niche. Why not make something exceptional that knife aficionados can appreciate. From my perspective I have an older Victorinox that is my go to fillet knife. It works well, holds a decent edge for a while and is stupid easy to sharpen. I would not buy a cheaper steel made in China version Spydie fillet knife; why would I, I already have what I need. Now if they made a nice one with a better steel that would give me a reason to own it then it would definitely be a consideration. It would have to have good edge retention so I could go longer without sharpening, exceptional blade shape/geometry for cleaning fish/game and an easily cleaned handle to remove the blood and guts. AND it would have to look really nice for me to make that leap. I'm sure everyone does not think along these lines just giving my 2 cents.

[Nate]

I assume we're talking primarily about the Bow River and not the filet knife. I also assume either would still be in Phil's signature style with a high quality g10 handle and a nice, thin grind. The idea that Spyderco would try to compete directly with a Dexter filet knife and slap Phil's name on it strikes me as fairly ridiculous.

I'd be happy to see a more affordable Phil Wilson collab, regardless of country of origin. China is fine with me though. I like the idea of at least some of Phil's designs being more accessible and widely used out in the world. Existing Spyderco collabs have already done that to an extent, but I imagine there may be potential to reach lots of hunters and fisherman out there beyond us "knuts" willing to spend a couple hundreds dollars on a blade. They're just such great working designs, I think the more people who get to experience them, the better. I would be in for sure. :)

Also, maybe it's just me, but I don't think Spyderco does "low end," even on the value line and Byrd knives. They may be inexpensive, but the quality is still there imo. I rather doubt Sal and Phil would move forward with something they weren't willing to stand behind.

As far as steel goes, I like exotic steels fine and have loads of them, but grind is at least as important to me as alloy these days. Ease of sharpening vs. more time between sharpenings was always sort of a wash to me, and besides, it appears the s90v models would still be there for those who prefer them. I still think a sprint Sprig or South Fork would be really cool if they did one some day.

[Ncmiked]

I have one of Phil's customs in CPM154 and would most definitely recommend the steel. I use it extensively in the kitchen, love it.

[arty]

S35V would be great for this, as would something like CPM 154. I have fillet knives on S35V and could talk myself into a "need" for another one in that steel.

[Donut]

My earlier thoughts aside, if the Bow River were US made I would vote for cpm154.

I think that would be the first ever Spyderco made with CPM 154. I'm not sure why, but...

Actually, the only use of CPM 154 was on that crazy, limited edition, sandwich laminated Manix. But it wasn't used for the edge, just the outer steel.

[TomAiello]

USA made in something like LC200N or 20CV will be definitely more interesting. I don't know about costs in this case, but it should be not so expensive as sending S90V to Taiwan.

20CV would be amazing.

A filet knife in LC200N would be pretty cool, too, but how much would that have to cost at retail to make sense?

[TomAiello]

If Spyderco is looking at mid-range steels for the Bow River, I'd be interested in s30v, s35vn or CPM 154.

[Phil Wilson]

Yes the Bow River has been in the early photo stage for a while. I missed SHOT this year so didn't get the benefit of feed back on the design. I am planning to make the drive up to Oregon show next week so hope to get caught up on what Sal and Eric and Rebecca are now thinking about it. There are a lot of good steel choices if it is made in Taiwan but is limited if in China or Japan as mentioned by Jim and Sal. I have some ideas on both but the final decision if it it fact does make it to production is going to based on many factors, steel included. I just feel fortunate to be involved in the process.

Sal and I have been talking about a fillet knife for years and I have submitted several prototypes for testing and consideration. It is difficult to make a production fillet knife with a steel grade hard enough to hold a good edge and heat treat for adequate ductility. I like the most flexibility in the first half of the blade and that is obtainable with a custom grind but a challenge with production machines. As far as cost for a good production fillet knife, I think there is a niche there since many avid fishermen will not blink at $400 or more for a fishing reel or hand wrapped rod.

Early on I made a lot of fillet knives with CPM S90V but that was the only CPM steel we had work with. It is over kill for a fillet knife and is best reserved for utility hunters where the wear resistance comes into play. CPM S110V won't work, I have tried it a few times and again is way overkill for the application. CPM 154 is ideal with CPM S30V as a close second choice. Something like MBS 26 or even 8CR or one of the Sanvik's would also work fine with the right heat treat. Phil

[Tdog]

Thanks Phil, just glad to hear a fillet knife is being considered. Looking forward to both the Bow River and the fillet knife. I know both you and Sal will do us proud. You guys are making memories one knife at a time. :)

[sal]

Thanx for chiming in Phil. Glad to have your ear.

sal

[Surfingringo]

We seem to be talking about two different things, the Bow River and a fillet knife.

I am not excited about a Chinese made Bow River or a Chinese fillet knife if the goal is to produce a lower end mod7el.
I would like to see a high end fillet knife as well as an affordable fillet knife. I would like to see the affordable fillet knife be a part of the current kitchen lineup. MBS26 is a good steel and that maker should be able to make a fillet knife at a price point that could compete with Dexter Russell and Rapala fillet knives. No need to make it in China. I would like the high end fillet knife to represent one of Phil's customs.

As far as the Bow River goes. I would also want to see a mid range knife at least.

I might add, the throwing knives are a fixed blade collaboration and they are made in China.

Hey Darby, I'm not really excited about it either, but I would buy one. I'm also not excited by the tenacious or other value line folders (including the new Ed Schempp collaboration) but they are quality knives for the price and lots of people buy them and enjoy them.

[Surfingringo]

I assume we're talking primarily about the Bow River and not the filet knife. I also assume either would still be in Phil's signature style with a high quality g10 handle and a nice, thin grind. [googlevideo]The idea that Spyderco would try to compete directly with a Dexter filet knife and slap Phil's name on it strikes me as fairly ridiculous.[/googlevideo]

I'd be happy to see a more affordable Phil Wilson collab, regardless of country of origin. China is fine with me though. I like the idea of at least some of Phil's designs being more accessible and widely used out in the world. Existing Spyderco collabs have already done that to an extent, but I imagine there may be potential to reach lots of hunters and fisherman out there beyond us "knuts" willing to spend a couple hundreds dollars on a blade. They're just such great working designs, I think the more people who get to experience them, the better. I would be in for sure. :)

Also, maybe it's just me, but I don't think Spyderco does "low end," even on the value line and Byrd knives. They may be inexpensive, but the quality is still there imo. I rather doubt Sal and Phil would move forward with something they weren't willing to stand behind.

As far as steel goes, I like exotic steels fine and have loads of them, but grind is at least as important to me as alloy these days. Ease of sharpening vs. more time between sharpenings was always sort of a wash to me, and besides, it appears the s90v models would still be there for those who prefer them. I still think a sprint Sprig or South Fork would be really cool if they did one some day.

Hey Nate, I'll respond to the dexter Russel remark since I think I'm the only one that mentioned them. I never said that Spyderco should try to compete directly with DR on the fillet knife market. I simply used them as an example of a company that managed to sell a ton of fishing knives and maintain a reputation amongst fishermen for making a quality product despite being made in china and using 420 class steel.

My point was simply that there is nothing wrong with offering some great designs in more affordable options. Allowing a chance for everyday hunters and fishermen to enjoy the same designs that we knife afis do. Pretty much the same thing you expressed in your next three paragraphs.

* Unrelated to your post, I always find the responses to these ideas a bit odd. I absolutely understand someone expressing their opinion that they would not buy a particular design if it were made in a "budget" model. What strikes me as odd is folks often respond saying that it is a bad idea or that they hope it doesn't get made. I don't get that reasoning. Like I said earlier, I have no idea if Phil would even be interested in a one of his models being made in a more affordable package. I have no idea if Spyderco would see value in making it. But I do have to remember that my personal tastes don't dictate the market. We, the obsessed few, are a very tiny portion of the knife buying market and there is nothing wrong with Spyderco trying to make knives for the other 95% to use and enjoy.

[Bodog]

A lot of people are turned on to the knife game with lower end offerings done right. The tenacious is definitely a gateway knife for a lot of people. Even if they don't "graduate" to higher end offerings they're served well for a long time with what they get. Having a knife like the sprig, bow river/fillet knife produced as an entry level/blue collar knife and also as a high end knife would serve interests of the vast majority of people seeking a knife in that design.

M390 is obviously very available in China and Sal has said they've sourced very high quality G10 in China. High quality 8 or 9Cr is also available. Given what Sal said a couple of posts ago about the steel I don't think they could go wrong letting their China factory handle both versions, one budget minded with 9Cr (obviously it's one better than 8Cr that others use) and a flash batch of a high end one in M390 and G10. If the high end one was advertised as being targeted at about .010" BET and taken to about 63 RD with a polished and stonewashed finish and half tang just like Phil's knives itd sell like hotcakes and become very collectable due to the one time test run of the China factory's capabilities. Shoot, even if Spyderco subcontracted WE knives as an OEM and made and sold a knife like this for $200 itd be a no brainer.

[bearfacedkiller]

I simply used them as an example of a company that managed to sell a ton of fishing knives and maintain a reputation amongst fishermen for making a quality product despite being made in china and using 420 class steel.

Lance, all Dexter Russell knives are made in Stockbridge, MA as far as I know. I believe they are the largest manufacturer of cutlery in the US. They use a proprietary 420 class steel or 1095CV. I have one of their knives in 1095 and like it quite a bit for what it is. They are managing to make affordable American made products still. That is not so easy to compete with. They are selling American made fillet knives in decent steel for around $20.

The Rapala knives are $20 and made in finland by Martinni, a respected knife maker.

Victorinox is bringing stiff competition too and made in Switzerland.

I have an F. Dick boning knife I clean fish with and it is in this group too being a decent knife for $20 and made in Germany.

Seems like a tough market to me and all four of them are quite well known and none are made in china. This isn't an anti china post. I am just showing what is out there.

[Nate]

Hey Nate, I'll respond to the dexter Russel remark since I think I'm the only one that mentioned them...

Nah, I was responding to Bugs as I saw his post just as I was about to submit mine.

I was kind of in a rush to wrap it up by the point and was just trying to say that I thought the Bow River was the one under consideration for a more affordable collab, rather than a fillet. Then, even it were also the fillet, that it would be hard to imagine them doing a very low cost model with an injection molded handle and calling it a Phil Wilson.

Happily, Mr. Wilson chimed in and appears to have clarified that, yes indeed: any collab on a fillet would most likely be a higher end model.

Agree 100% on the rest of your post.

[Surfingringo]

I simply used them as an example of a company that managed to sell a ton of fishing knives and maintain a reputation amongst fishermen for making a quality product despite being made in china and using 420 class steel.

Lance, all Dexter Russell knives are made in Stockbridge, MA as far as I know. I believe they are the largest manufacturer of cutlery in the US. They use a proprietary 420 class steel or 1095CV. I have one of their knives in 1095 and like it quite a bit for what it is. They are managing to make affordable American made products still. That is not so easy to compete with. They are selling American made fillet knives in decent steel for around $20.

The Rapala knives are $20 and made in finland by Martinni, a respected knife maker.

Victorinox is bringing stiff competition too and made in Switzerland.

I have an F. Dick boning knife I clean fish with and it is in this group too being a decent knife for $20 and made in Germany.

Seems like a tough market to me and all four of them are quite well known and none are made in china. This isn't an anti china post. I am just showing what is out there.

All good points Darby. There's also a lot of price points between $20 and $200 on these types of knives. Maybe there is some place within that gap that would make good marketing sense and offer a knife that "joe user" would see as a high end offering that was still within his price range and the afis would still see as a solid representation of phils design? Just thinking out loud.

[sal]

Hey Phil,

I'd love to hear some of your thoughts.

Hey Darby, are those retail prices you are quoting for Dexter and F.Dick? Do they have injected molded handles?

It's hard for me to imagine making a knife in the US and retailing it for $20. :eek: For us, US, Japan and German mfr runs about the same, give or take. Taiwan can be less, but shipping steel (to Golden and then to Taiwan) does add cost. The only way for us to make an affordable folder like the Tenacious, it has to be made in China where their dollar is 1/4th of a US dollar. Using US steels in China, except for BD1, really adds cost. Eg: Kizer which is not a "value folder". Even using BD1 add's 30% (Look at the Tenacious and the Polestar)

Where we have very cost conscious models, like out new throwers ( Mueller), there really isn't much option and they are made in China. We also have to keep in mind as a US company that there are a variety of "issues" with China production; taking jobs from the US, Counterfeiting becomes easier and faster, resistance to China mfr by many.

'Tis a puzzlement. :o

sal

[Bodog]

Are European steels as cost prohibitive to import to China?