Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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carl3989
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Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#1

Post by carl3989 »

Recently while perusing reviews of the Spyderco Phoenix some reviewers questioned the use of VG10 steel. These reviewers opined that at the high MSP of this limited production sprint run knife they expected a better blade steel. I for one have a few VG10 blades and never thought that they were cheap or unsophisticated. What am I missing?
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MattM68
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#2

Post by MattM68 »

I think people are just used to all the exotic steels we have now. VG10 is a good steel, but we've seen it so much that it gets a little boring. It's the same situation with S30V. Probably 90% of my knives are S30V. I don't have a problem with either of those steels, but I would like to see some more interesting steels. I would love to see more CTS 204P or M390.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that most people paying a premium price for a knife usually want a nicer steel. Like the Phoenix, Rubicon, or Magnitude. However, if a better steel were to be used in a knife like the Phoenix, the price would have been even higher than it already was.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#3

Post by captnvegtble »

My take is that VG-10 is a good all-around knife steel (sharpens easily and takes a keen edge), but I find it tends to form a burr more easily when sharpened to lower angles, and it doesn't have the best edge retention. For kitchen knives it makes a GREAT steel because I frequently steel the edge prior to use bringing it back to optimal sharpness, but I don't do this for my folding knives. For my folding knives or outdoor knives, I prefer a steel with better edge retention.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#4

Post by ZrowsN1s »

Is VG-10 a powdered steel? That might have something to do with it.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#5

Post by The Deacon »

I chalk it up to ignorant and unrealistic expectations. The Phoenix was manufactured for Spyderco in Japan, and Japanese knife companies are reluctant to work with anything but Japanese steels, to put it mildly. In addition to that, 9 years ago when the Phoenix came out, Spyderco was still just beginning to use less stainless steels, so ZDP-189 would have been the only "better" steel they might have considered, It would have made an already expensive knife, aimed primarily at collectors who'd never use it, even more expensive. For what?
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#6

Post by bh49 »

carl3989 wrote: These reviewers opined that at the high MSP of this limited production sprint run knife they expected a better blade steel.
Everybody is entitled to have an opinion. And it is very possible that some people would be happy to pay an extra $30-$50 for that knife, which was quite expensive back then. Also it is very possible that these people were accounted for 1% of sold knives and the rest (99%) were quite happy to have VG10 and the price, where it were.
I can say the same about Mamba. This is quite expensive knife and the blade steel is "only" S30V. But I am wondering what % of owners will put this knife for "hard use", where they would see a difference between S30V and S110V?
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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Post by Able Dog »

I'd imagine some combination of A. other exotic steels being all the rage, B. ELU having unrealistic expectations about the "exoticness" they actually need, and C. seemingly incongruent pricing for the materials (as a result of all the factors that go into Japanese models being expensive).

For knives that I actually use, and aren't just pocket-jewelry, VG-10 is a great steel.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#8

Post by VashHash »

I don't mind VG-10 at all. But spyderco does spoil us when it comes to steel and pricing. Don't forget the Phoenix was also made with titanium. Bang for the buck i think spyderco wins hands down when compared to other knife companies. Some companies offer knives that cost $450 to 500 with only S30V or S35VN. Some custom makers only work with 440C and charge thousands. Everyone has their opinion on the inherent value of things but it doesn't mean they're right.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#9

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

I am extremely satisfied and happy with VG10 stainless steel, and while I like the rustproofs such as H1, and I like some other steels, like 440C and 154CM, I for one officially beg and plead with Sal and Spyderco to PLEASE CONTINUE TO MAKE KNIVES WITH BLADES OF VG10 STAINLESS STEEL for years to come at least! :)

Or to put it mildly, I love VG10 and I think it is one of the best steel alloys made by mankind.

The VG10 on my Enduras, Delica, and others is one of the cleanest, nicest shiniest looking, toughest, most robust and durable steel alloys I have ever used and known.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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Post by The CoPilot »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Or to put it mildly, I love VG10 and I think it is one of the best steel alloys made by mankind.

The VG10 on my Enduras, Delica, and others is one of the cleanest, nicest shiniest looking, toughest, most robust and durable steel alloys I have ever used and known.
I absolutely agree 100%!
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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Post by fanglekai »

High carbide fraction steel does not equal better steel, but this idea is perpetuated on a large forum dedicated to knives. People want S110V and other steels because that's what people talk about online. People write that S30V is no good even though just a few years ago it was considered a high end, premium steel. The steel did not change. People's uses didn't change. Opinions written on forums, posted on youtube, and other places on the net have influenced people into thinking that only certain steels are any good. People somehow get "bored" with steels like VG10 and S30V. I don't see how one gets "bored" of a tool. It's meant to do work. If a knife isn't going to be used for work, the alloy is irrelevant. If one isn't cutting only soft, abrasive materials, there's no need to use a high carbide fraction steel.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#12

Post by dreadpirate »

I like VG10 just fine.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#13

Post by Doc Dan »

VG10 is one of my favorite steels. A lot of people on forums will say anything. If you pay attention, they change their opinions of steels like they do clothing fashions; what's in today is out tomorrow, and may come back again.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#14

Post by npad69 »

vg10 is the most perfectly balanced blade steel for me.
i'll be replacing it if someone can point me another blade steel with the same corrosion resistance, similar toughness, as easy to sharpen, same price point (or cheaper) but more wear resistant than vg10.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#15

Post by The Mastiff »

High carbide fraction steel does not equal better steel, but this idea is perpetuated on a large forum dedicated to knives. People want S110V and other steels because that's what people talk about online. People write that S30V is no good even though just a few years ago it was considered a high end, premium steel. The steel did not change. People's uses didn't change. Opinions written on forums, posted on youtube, and other places on the net have influenced people into thinking that only certain steels are any good. People somehow get "bored" with steels like VG10 and S30V. I don't see how one gets "bored" of a tool. It's meant to do work. If a knife isn't going to be used for work, the alloy is irrelevant. If one isn't cutting only soft, abrasive materials, there's no need to use a high carbide fraction steel.
I agree with this. I can't say how many times I've seen people write that "better" is higher abrasive wear resistance. Very wear resistant high carbide steels can be great they aren't always the best for me. Different steels are like different size wrenches for me. That is what I try to remind myself anyways. Nowadays I try to not buy as many knives so models like the Cruwear and Maxamet sprints get the nod. It's not really the carbide fraction that sells the steel to me. I am enjoying Maxamet though and it's about as wear resistant as any I've used.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#16

Post by vivi »

I doubt there are very few people out there using a Phoenix so hard that VG10 does not suffice for their usage.

In fact I doubt there are very many people who post about steels online that need better edge retention than VG10 offers.

Sometimes I feel like the only person who's figured out if you carry a sheet of 1000 grit sandpaper in your wallet edge retention doesn't matter. Give me 20 seconds at my pocket knife is back to razor sharp.

Looking around on here and bladeforums the majority of knives I see posted have not even been sharpened. How can you be bored with VG10 or S30V if you open a few envelopes a week with your folder and sharpen them twice a year?
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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Post by Doc Dan »

It's in the mind. It is the fantasy that matters and not the reality.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#18

Post by ZrowsN1s »

I don't know, the Placebo effect IS real, my taste in fashion is questionable at best, and I've certainly changed my mind before when presented with new information.... Perhaps I have drank the kool-aid and bought the hype, I'm certainly no expert and it may just be in my head, but as someone who owns, uses, and sharpens 154cm, vg-10, s30v, s35vn, s110v, zdp-189, hap-40, H-1. Lc200N, M4, Super Blue, and eagerly awaiting maxamet... To me they all cut differently, wear differently, and the powdered steels, the powdered tool steels, and high speed steels stand out to me a small but noticeable step above the perfectly useful and all around good super steels of yesterday like vg-10. IT IS A GREAT STEEL and better than 99% of whats on the market in that price range. I can EASILY get the job done with vg-10, I can get the job done with a rusty stainless steel butter knife if I have to, I prefer to use the cutting edge so to speak. I honestly HOPE they come out with a steel in the near future that makes me think these new cpm high speed tool steels are nice but.... ;)
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

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Post by Bodog »

The Mastiff wrote:
High carbide fraction steel does not equal better steel, but this idea is perpetuated on a large forum dedicated to knives. People want S110V and other steels because that's what people talk about online. People write that S30V is no good even though just a few years ago it was considered a high end, premium steel. The steel did not change. People's uses didn't change. Opinions written on forums, posted on youtube, and other places on the net have influenced people into thinking that only certain steels are any good. People somehow get "bored" with steels like VG10 and S30V. I don't see how one gets "bored" of a tool. It's meant to do work. If a knife isn't going to be used for work, the alloy is irrelevant. If one isn't cutting only soft, abrasive materials, there's no need to use a high carbide fraction steel.
I agree with this. I can't say how many times I've seen people write that "better" is higher abrasive wear resistance. Very wear resistant high carbide steels can be great they aren't always the best for me. Different steels are like different size wrenches for me. That is what I try to remind myself anyways. Nowadays I try to not buy as many knives so models like the Cruwear and Maxamet sprints get the nod. It's not really the carbide fraction that sells the steel to me. I am enjoying Maxamet though and it's about as wear resistant as any I've used.
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Re: Why do some denigrate VG10 steel?

#20

Post by z4vdBt »

Ty, what'd did you shoot today?

Oh I don't keep score Judge.

Oh well, how do you measure yourself with other golfers?

By height.
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