Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

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EDC Honeybee
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Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby EDC Honeybee » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:55 pm

Hey guys. I understand from the warranty that damage from disassembly is not covered by the warranty.

I had some grit in the pivot of my para3, so I wanted to take it apart to clean and re-oil the pivot. The screws wouldn't come out easily so I used a soldering iron to loosen up the loc-tite. I was able to get the pivot without issue, but the middle scale screw head stripped. I was able to get it apart form the other side and clean and reassemble.

Having it apart, it seems spyderco uses red loc-tite on the para3. That surprises me since red loc-tite is seriously overkill, and ends up destroying much more than it saves on small parts like folding knives. Loc-tite recommends it only for "permanent assembly" of "heavy-duty" parts.

Anyways, I understand its my risk/fault for taking the knife apart and that the red loc-tite is probably to prevent user maintenance. I can source my own replacement screws if needed, but would much rather have a spyderco replacement part. Has anyone have luck with purchasing replacement screws through spyderco? My knife is together and working great but it frustrates me a little to have a $120 knife with a rounded screw head.

Thanks!

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby yablanowitz » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:45 pm

The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby EDC Honeybee » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:18 pm

yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?
I didn't find torque specs or use a torque wrench. I use blue loc-tite and have never ever had a screw fall out. Just snug and hand tight with blue loc-tite does the trick. The pivot you set to your taste (how loose or tight). I make custom knives and have experience with messing around with them.

I will check with customer support, thanks :)

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Bodog » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:05 pm

yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby MattM68 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:50 pm

Bodog wrote:
yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
I agree, but everyone needs to stop going crazy about the red loctite. The points gotten across, and Sal said he's looking at options at this point. I love Spyderco, and I really don't buy any knives but Spydercos. Just because I love Spyderco doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision that they make. But at the end of the day we all still love the knives, and red loctite shouldn't divide all of us who share this hobby.

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Sharp Guy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:55 pm

yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?
I'm curious, did Spyderco send you torque specs when they sent you screws for your PM2? If so, care to share what those specs were that you used? Small inch pound torque drivers are readily available from several manufactures. I have a pretty good one and, although I never thought to use it on a knife, from what you're saying maybe I should?
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby The Deacon » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:32 am

EDC Honeybee wrote:Hey guys. I understand from the warranty that damage from disassembly is not covered by the warranty.

I had some grit in the pivot of my para3, so I wanted to take it apart to clean and re-oil the pivot. The screws wouldn't come out easily so I used a soldering iron to loosen up the loc-tite. I was able to get the pivot without issue, but the middle scale screw head stripped. I was able to get it apart form the other side and clean and reassemble.

Having it apart, it seems spyderco uses red loc-tite on the para3. That surprises me since red loc-tite is seriously overkill, and ends up destroying much more than it saves on small parts like folding knives. Loc-tite recommends it only for "permanent assembly" of "heavy-duty" parts.

Anyways, I understand its my risk/fault for taking the knife apart and that the red loc-tite is probably to prevent user maintenance. I can source my own replacement screws if needed, but would much rather have a spyderco replacement part. Has anyone have luck with purchasing replacement screws through spyderco? My knife is together and working great but it frustrates me a little to have a $120 knife with a rounded screw head.

Thanks!
Best thing would be to call them, explain what you did and what you need, offer to pay for it, and see what they say. Have a hunch that folks who get turned down are either rude and demanding, asking to purchase entire sets of screws, asking to purchase screws in bulk, or have just called with the same sad story once too often.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby ejames13 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Bodog wrote:
yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
This is not the impression I got from Sal's response here and on BF. Sounded more like they started using it to make absolutely sure screws don't back out during use, not because they want to spite people trying to disassemble their knives.

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Bodog » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:03 pm

ejames13 wrote:
Bodog wrote:
yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
This is not the impression I got from Sal's response here and on BF. Sounded more like they started using it to make absolutely sure screws don't back out during use, not because they want to spite people trying to disassemble their knives.
That may be true but coupled with their warranty it becomes clear what's intended.

They're covering their bases by using loctite and saying if you try to disassemble for any reason at all you're SOL.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's not my company. It is clear what's intended though. Don't take the knives apart. The red loctite means nothing to me, honestly. If people were allowed to take the knives apart and Spyderco was using red loctite then that would be an issue.

I don't personally like being told that no matter what I cannot inspect what's mine. And if I take it apart and find a manufacturer defect then it's not covered because I found the problem. It doesn't sit right with and if it ends up discouraging people from buying spyderco knives then it discourages it. Yes, the warranty has stopped me from buying knives from spyderco that have equivalent competition from companies with better warranties. That's spyderco's choice. Aside from that, I buy Spyderco knives that don't have competition and I don't worry about the warranty unless it's blatantly not right. Like inspecting poor action or lock stick and finding the problem and that voiding the warranty.

Loctite has nothing to do with that. It just slows down people voiding their warranties and giving genuine inspections of what they bought.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby EDC Honeybee » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:04 pm

ejames13 wrote:
Bodog wrote:
yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
This is not the impression I got from Sal's response here and on BF. Sounded more like they started using it to make absolutely sure screws don't back out during use, not because they want to spite people trying to disassemble their knives.
Having browsed the forums a bunch and seen Sal in person I seriously doubt there is any bad intent. My best guess is that it is intended to keep items just as good as when they left the factory and also to mitigate some sort of liability or warranty worries. Those aren't bad on their own, but I personally disagree with the use of red loc-tite since it reduces the knife's utility to me personally. It is largely a perception thing to me. My pinned caly 3 seems just fine. It doesnt bother me that I can't take it apart. But when there are screwheads on there I feel like screwheads have a purpose (aid in disassembly and reassembly) and then using red loc-tite removes that purpose again. The screws signal to the user that the item can be taken apart. Some companies signal that the knife is not to be taken apart by using pins or security bits, or proprietary bits.

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Bodog » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:15 pm

EDC Honeybee wrote:
ejames13 wrote:
Bodog wrote:
yablanowitz wrote:The red Loctite is a not-so-subtle hint that those screws are not there for the user, they are there for the factory. That said, they sent me some new screws for my Para2 a few years ago when someone pointed out there was one missing in a picture I posted, just for asking them. I hadn't even noticed it had fallen out (I never take mine apart unless they have a serious problem and I want to void my warranty), so I guess maybe stronger Loctite isn't such a bad idea. By the way, where did you find the torque specs for those screws and a torque wrench that small to make certain you had it reassembled correctly?

Dude, seriously? You think the kind of knives spyderco produces should need a torque wrench to properly tighten screws?



The people defending this stuff are coming up with crazier and crazier things to justify and defend what doesn't make sense. There's no genuinely good reason for it. Spyderco has said simply they don't think people who buy their knives should take them apart. That's their stance good, bad, or ugly. What shouldn't be done is for anyone to attempt to justify it anymore than Sal and Co. have done.

Don't justify it, don't defend it. Just state it as a fact and move on. Spyderco doesn't want it done and it voids the warranty. Deal with it or find another company to buy from. That's the long and short of it. For God's sake, don't try to say something like knives never ever need to be taken apart. Don't say these knives need specialized tools and years of highly technical training to disassemble, inspect, and reassemble. That's an insult and incredibly ridiculous to say. We're not talking about Swiss watches from the 1700's here. Come on. Get real.
This is not the impression I got from Sal's response here and on BF. Sounded more like they started using it to make absolutely sure screws don't back out during use, not because they want to spite people trying to disassemble their knives.
Having browsed the forums a bunch and seen Sal in person I seriously doubt there is any bad intent. My best guess is that it is intended to keep items just as good as when they left the factory and also to mitigate some sort of liability or warranty worries. Those aren't bad on their own, but I personally disagree with the use of red loc-tite since it reduces the knife's utility to me personally. It is largely a perception thing to me. My pinned caly 3 seems just fine. It doesnt bother me that I can't take it apart. But when there are screwheads on there I feel like screwheads have a purpose (aid in disassembly and reassembly) and then using red loc-tite removes that purpose again. The screws signal to the user that the item can be taken apart. Some companies signal that the knife is not to be taken apart by using pins or security bits, or proprietary bits.
A lot of companies with security bits as you mentioned also provide a tool to open the knife and inspect as the person sees fit. Also, a lot of those companies have a warranty that still covers the manufacturer side of the product regardless if opened or not. I'm not trying to say Spyderco is right or wrong for covering their asses, only that other companies get business because Spyderco will not offer the same protections at the same price.

All of us here, I'm pretty sure, want spyderco to get more business. The warranty and stance taken against people who want to know the entire knife is worth what they paid for it drives some purchases away. That cannot be denied. I haven't seen other companies sued or go out of business because they allowed people to inspect the entire knife within reason. They've gone out of business for not offering what people want at a price that makes sense. At some of these prices and with the designs being offered there isn't a whole hell of a lot of reason to not keep up with the joneses regarding warranty issues.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Michael Janich » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:34 am

Circling back to the original question, we typically do not charge to send out a "lost" screw. I typically recommend that customers take a cell phone photo of their knife (to allow customer service to confirm the model) and point out the specific screw they need with a pencil or something similar. E-mail it to customerservice@spyderco.com with a simple request like "Could you please send me a replacement screw for my knife?"

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Taypo » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:52 am

Between this and the other related thread, I'm now completely confused.

The warranty and Sal's comments are pretty clear on Spyderco's opinion of disassembly. You guys have gone so far as to use Red Loctite to, from all outward appearances, make it that much more difficult to tear down the product.

Circling back to the original question in this thread, the customer admitted he disassembled the knife and you're still going out of your way to explain how to get free parts.

I think we're all appreciative of your customer service, but this doesnt make any sense. You're putting out a product that is designed to be difficult to take apart, then giving away product at no charge when we break it trying to take it apart?

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:59 am

So we are supposed just toss it and call CS and just say that a screw with red loctite or some other heavy thread locker just fell out on it's own and is "lost" to get another one?
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby araneae » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:40 am

Wow. Complete over-reaction on both ends of the equation here. It's a bit sad when certain people can't let things go and turn every thread into a partisan fight. If you don't like the warranty, go somewhere else. Spyderco is a small company doing their best to serve the end users and their employees, doesn't mean we all have to like every decision they make, but I trust they are doing what they believe is right.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Taypo » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:47 am

araneae wrote:Wow. Complete over-reaction on both ends of the equation here. It's a bit sad when certain people can't let things go and turn every thread into a partisan fight. If you don't like the warranty, go somewhere else.
You dont find "If you dont like it, go away" to be an over-reaction on one end of the equation?

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby The Deacon » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:54 am

Taypo wrote:Between this and the other related thread, I'm now completely confused.

The warranty and Sal's comments are pretty clear on Spyderco's opinion of disassembly. You guys have gone so far as to use Red Loctite to, from all outward appearances, make it that much more difficult to tear down the product.

Circling back to the original question in this thread, the customer admitted he disassembled the knife and you're still going out of your way to explain how to get free parts.

I think we're all appreciative of your customer service, but this doesnt make any sense. You're putting out a product that is designed to be difficult to take apart, then giving away product at no charge when we break it trying to take it apart?
Not sure why you're confused. It's possible to damage a screw while doing something other than taking a knife apart or lose one while moving a clip. Trying to adjust pivot tension, blade centering, or lockbar tension on midlocks would be examples of that.
Last edited by The Deacon on Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby awa54 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:58 am

Taypo wrote:Between this and the other related thread, I'm now completely confused.

The warranty and Sal's comments are pretty clear on Spyderco's opinion of disassembly. You guys have gone so far as to use Red Loctite to, from all outward appearances, make it that much more difficult to tear down the product.

Circling back to the original question in this thread, the customer admitted he disassembled the knife and you're still going out of your way to explain how to get free parts.

I think we're all appreciative of your customer service, but this doesnt make any sense. You're putting out a product that is designed to be difficult to take apart, then giving away product at no charge when we break it trying to take it apart?
For those who *don't* disassemble their knives the red loctite is a benefit, since screws that are secured with that product are unlikely to ever come loose on their own.
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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Taypo » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:11 am

The Deacon wrote:
Taypo wrote:Between this and the other related thread, I'm now completely confused.

The warranty and Sal's comments are pretty clear on Spyderco's opinion of disassembly. You guys have gone so far as to use Red Loctite to, from all outward appearances, make it that much more difficult to tear down the product.

Circling back to the original question in this thread, the customer admitted he disassembled the knife and you're still going out of your way to explain how to get free parts.

I think we're all appreciative of your customer service, but this doesnt make any sense. You're putting out a product that is designed to be difficult to take apart, then giving away product at no charge when we break it trying to take it apart?
Not sure why you're confused. It's possible to damage a screw while doing something other than taking a knife apart or lose one while moving a clip. Trying to adjust pivot tension, blade centering, or lockbar tension on midlocks would be examples of that.
I was referring to the original question - the one where he's talking about taking his knife apart and reassembling it.

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Re: Policy on replacing stripped screw heads?

Postby Taypo » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:19 am

awa54 wrote:
Taypo wrote:Between this and the other related thread, I'm now completely confused.

The warranty and Sal's comments are pretty clear on Spyderco's opinion of disassembly. You guys have gone so far as to use Red Loctite to, from all outward appearances, make it that much more difficult to tear down the product.

Circling back to the original question in this thread, the customer admitted he disassembled the knife and you're still going out of your way to explain how to get free parts.

I think we're all appreciative of your customer service, but this doesnt make any sense. You're putting out a product that is designed to be difficult to take apart, then giving away product at no charge when we break it trying to take it apart?
For those who *don't* disassemble their knives the red loctite is a benefit, since screws that are secured with that product are unlikely to ever come loose on their own.
I absolutely agree. My issue is dichotomy in policy:

1. Encourage users to maintain and mod their knives = stop using red loctite
2. Discourage users from maintaining and modding their knives = stop replacing parts that are broken during disassembly

Dont in any way, shape or form mistake my criticism of the policy for anything other than what it is. I'm not slamming Spyderco, I'm not bagging on their products and I'm not calling anyone names

I just dont understand how the thought process involved lead to a "We're going to make it hard to disassemble the knives, which voids the warranty, but if they ask we'll replace the parts they broke while doing it."


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