CPM S110V -- How long will it hold edge at narrow angle?

[dj moonbat]

I'm thisclose to getting a PM2 in S110V, but I'm a little concerned that I'll have the same problem with S110V that I have with S30V--namely, that I have to put an angle at or near 40° at the edge if I want to keep that edge around for any length of time. Sure, a reasonable working edge will be there for a long time--but I'll be honest; I'm not really a reasonable guy.

What I like to do with my M4 and ZDP189 knives is put a primary bevel of 24° on with diamond stones and then maintain a secondary bevel of 30° with the Sharpmaker. Is anybody using S110V in a configuration similar to this? If so, how long before a screaming edge settles into a working edge, and can the working edge still, e.g., shave arm hair?

[Skidoosh]

I have my S110V PM2 at 30 degrees inclusive and it performs well and will hold an edge longer than S30V. However, I have experienced chipping on S110V that has surprised me and that I have decided to move away from it as a steel. I don't know how to account for it but the chipping has disappointed me. I think at 40 you will be ok.

[Bodog]

S110V and other high alloy stainless steels probably won't do well at 12 degrees per side for most people who work with their knives.

Without trying to be a jerk, I don't know how else to ask it, why do you drop the angle down so low of your secondary bevel? If you need to go that low then your knives are too thick to begin with. Whatever your tertiary bevel is should be your secondary bevel and then adjust the primary bevel accordingly. You'll see much better performance across the board.

My understanding of a microbevel is that it's a one or two swipe deal to fully knock the burr off the knife, not shore up an otherwise too low secondary bevel. If you're using a microbevel as a way to shore up a secondary bevel, it becomes a tertiary bevel and shows the blade is too thick behind the edge. You shouldn't really need to go less than 15 degrees per side on any knife. Most people are really probably just looking for better performance from a knife that's too thick behind the edge. Fix the root of the problem rather than slapping a band aid on it.

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

Not just that but accepting that as the real issue opens up a lot of steels you wouldn't have considered before, like S110V. And it may cause you to see what's being parrotted all over the place as a bunch of junk. Or at least something so strictly constrained into a small range of uses that you see people trying to follow that path and making up for creating such weakness in edges by doing things like creating tertiary or even quaternary bevels.

My apologies if I came across as a jerk or tried to tell you something you've already considered.

[Evil D]

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

This. The only problem here is you have to be smart and use your knife as a knife, otherwise you can literally break off chunks of your blade if you're out there twisting the crap out of hard wood knots and batoning. Otherwise if you're just slicing things, when you get the grind geometry right, a blade like that will still cut like a monster even when most of is knife nuts consider the edge dull just by edge geometry and carbides alone.

The reality is most knife companies grind their blades on the safe side to avoid warranty BS. At the very least you can compare a grind like the Mantra vs a Military and there's enough difference there that the Mantra will significantly out perform the Military with both knives being sharpened the same.

[razorsharp]

I'll let you know how this holds up, did it a few days ago. So far so good.

[Bodog]

I'll let you know how this holds up, did it a few days ago. So far so good.

Nice

[razorsharp]

Whoopsie post

[Skidoosh]

I'm not sure if the comments were to the OP or myself. I re-profiled to 30 inclusive and experienced chipping cutting cardboard. That really surprised me. I may re-profile to 34 but I don't know if that would make a huge amount of difference.

[razorsharp]

Im at about 17 dps. But. 007 behind the edge. So far no chipping. I did have chipping at 15dps

[razorsharp]

May have been slightly steeper than 30incl, I sorta eyed it

[bluntcut]

Take my post with a cup of salt...

My current batch of prototype/test knifes include s110v, s90v, 20cv and quite a few more in mid Cr% steels. Data relevant to OP

Test suite: whittle (push/pressure-cut with thumb) - black bamboo, purpleheart, Aust Buloke, African Blackwood, cooked port & beef rib bones.

Pass: when no visible microchipping (under 2x loupe)

Sharpened: DMT F, Apexed at E, few swipes with EE (extra extra fine - 3um), straight V bevel dps (no micro bevel)

64rc S90V 15dps, 0.0065" behind edge thick(BET) - passed.
64rc 20cv 15dps, 0.008" bet - passed. Didn't test 65rc blade yet.
64rc S110V 14-15dps (no micro bevel), 0.006" bet - passed.
65-66rc S110V (haha no time to grind & test yet) <= no, this isn't as-quenched (peak) hardness but listed here to show potential head-room.

To OP - IME, with good ht and sharpening skills - these high alloy steels would support 14+dps and sub 0.01" BET. And those employ micro bevel - ok to sharpen at 12/15dps, where microbevel should be at least 30-60um wide. Even with that, excess lateral will ripple the edge.

ymmv.

[Bodog]

Take my post with a cup of salt...

My current batch of prototype/test knifes include s110v, s90v, 20cv and quite a few more in mid Cr% steels. Data relevant to OP

Test suite: whittle (push/pressure-cut with thumb) - black bamboo, purpleheart, Aust Buloke, African Blackwood, cooked port & beef rib bones.

Pass: when no visible microchipping (under 2x loupe)

Sharpened: DMT F, Apexed at E, few swipes with EE (extra extra fine - 3um), straight V bevel dps (no micro bevel)

64rc S90V 15dps, 0.0065" behind edge thick(BET) - passed.
64rc 20cv 15dps, 0.008" bet - passed. Didn't test 65rc blade yet.
64rc S110V 14-15dps (no micro bevel), 0.006" bet - passed.
65-66rc S110V (haha no time to grind & test yet) <= no, this isn't as-quenched (peak) hardness but listed here to show potential head-room.

To OP - IME, with good ht and sharpening skills - these high alloy steels would support 14+dps and sub 0.01" BET. And those employ micro bevel - ok to sharpen at 12/15dps, where microbevel should be at least 30-60um wide. Even with that, excess lateral will ripple the edge.

ymmv.

Haha, Luong. Good to see you posting again. I have to warn people that what can be done with some of these steels after you're done with them is quite a bit more than when done by most others.


To others:
I'd also feel confident running some of Luong's blades at a more acute angle because they're normally harder. Not just harder, but tougher at a higher hardness than what can normally be found in blades at a lower hardness.


Back to Luong:
I've been impressed by the 10V blade. It's been my go to kitchen blade to the point where I was cutting off of ceramic tile countertops without much worry. It dulled a little bit but still going strong. Once I've dulled it, or got tired of waiting for it to really dull, I'll resharpen it and hopefully get some other interested people to test it too.

[bluntcut]

Glad that little 68rc 10v paring is still alive under your TLC :D

Good ht S110V should has endurance (wear resistance peformance) close to 10V, S125V, Rex121 level (15V is a little more ahead). I might make attempt for a 66-68rc s110v knife (maybe peak hrc be close to 69). Aust grain at 2200F would be large however maybe my grain refinement will keep size below 15um.

...
Haha, Luong. Good to see you posting again. I have to warn people that what can be done with some of these steels after you're done with them is quite a bit more than when done by most others.

To others:
I'd also feel confident running some of Luong's blades at a more acute angle because they're normally harder. Not just harder, but tougher at a higher hardness than what can normally be found in blades at a lower hardness.

Back to Luong:
I've been impressed by the 10V blade. It's been my go to kitchen blade to the point where I was cutting off of ceramic tile countertops without much worry. It dulled a little bit but still going strong. Once I've dulled it, or got tired of waiting for it to really dull, I'll resharpen it and hopefully get some other interested people to test it too.

Anyway OP - keep in mind, a lot of chipping after major sharpening session or reprofile is due to one or more factors: apexed at grit larger than 30um, large burnishing impact by ceramic rod or huge abrasive against thin edge/cross-section. Get a 15x-25x Peak Loupe to view-assist you with shaping a highly durable 15dps for your s110v blade.

[anagarika]

Luong,

Nice to see you posting. Thanks.
I might get to see what Spyderco S110V can do

[Brock O Lee]

I have two of the older S110V knives. Not sure if they were HT'ed quite as hard as the more recent runs.

Native 5 Forum - V edge, 26 deg incl with 30 deg incl micro.
Manix LW - low convex with 30 deg incl micro.

I've not seen visible chipping on either, but they lose their hair shaving sharpness quickly with light use EDC. Low sharpness working edges lasts a long time, but to be honest I have not been blown away by their edge holding. I like S90V and M390 more.

[me2]

I keep my Manix in S110V with a 17 degree back bevel and 20 degree Sharpmaker applied microbevel. No chipping so far. I would lower it, but I started and ran out of patience.

[vvs]

I've not seen visible chipping on either, but they lose their hair shaving sharpness quickly with light use EDC. Low sharpness working edges lasts a long time, but to be honest I have not been blown away by their edge holding. I like S90V and M390 more.

I have exactly the same observations. S90V on forum native holds and holds shaving sharpness, while S110V Manixes (LW & G10) loose their bite quickly.

Both Manixes I have is 14-15dps reprofiled, no chipping on cardboard so far.

[vivi]

Interesting. I have not tried S90V or S110V yet, I was thinking about buying a Military in one of those two steels this year. I care much more about how long a knife will holding a shaving sharp edge than a working edge.

[bluntcut]

Just a simple take/deduction :p - since I don't own Spyderco knives in s110v & s90v...

Spyderco S110V should performs better in Jim Ankerson's rope cutting test - at the minimum, it should score close or better than Spyderco MT24/maxamet rather than more than 40% lower. And (as posted by others) users expect s110v to keep shaving edge longer - at least match Spyderco knives in S90V? in this case, it doesn't sound like a sharpening issue, since users owned Spyderco knives in both steels.

Luong,

Nice to see you posting. Thanks.
I might get to see what Spyderco S110V can do

[dj moonbat]

Thanks for all the information and opinions. It sounds like S110V is a risky proposition for the way I like to maintain my knives.