Would you buy an AEB-L Military?

[Bodog]

Hopefully Sal/Spyderco can speak with Verhoeven and/or Landes directly to get their take directly on the research and potential performance.

Hopefully all of these guys tinkering with heat treatments talk with Kevin Cashen (who's name gets thrown around a lot by Cliff, too) who absolutely advocates sticking to industrial standard heat treatments because if it works for a huge die press it must work well for a knife blade. That's some BS and anyone who's been paying attention knows it is.

Just because some really intelligent guy says it doesn't necessarily make it true for all things. If Albert Einstein had said in 1940 that math proves the earth is a hollow pear shaped object with no trees or oceans, he'd still be a genius but he'd still be wrong. Doesn't matter what the math says, real life says otherwise.

[Steel_Drake]

I find it fascinating how AEB-L specifically seems to provoke such hostility and animosity from people who I don't recall levying similar hostility towards 52100, SuperBlue or LC200n despite them all having broadly similar properties at high hardness aside from corrosion resistance.

As I've said in the past when this kind of steel gets brought up: Look, I full well understand several posters on this board really really strongly prefer ultra-high carbide volume, ultra-high wear resistance steels. If that's what you prefer and what is best suited to your use case, great, awesome, more power to you. Spyderco already makes lots and lots of models and sprint runs with ultra high carbide volume, ultra high wear resistant steels up to and including using s110v, 10V and Maxamet.

What I will never understand every time these threads come up is why there is such contention, consternation, and active hostility towards the idea that those of us who prioritize other steel properties might get one or two models or sprint runs in steels we want versus the dozens and dozens of models and sprints already offered in high carbide volume, highly wear resistant steels.

[Evil D]

How many knife afis wanting crazy performance from their knives are going with BD1?

Well, how many people bought 52100? How many would buy a Military in 1095, O1, or any other steel that is too similar for the average person to tell apart? If we apply that thinking to every steel, why do we need M4/D2/M390/204P/20CP/S90V/S110V/Cruwear/Maximet/3V/Super Blue/HAP40/LC200N/H1 etc etc when the average person won't tell those apart until they're pushed to the limits?

I do get the point you're trying to make but it's also a bit contradictory when we do the same thing with all these other steel options.

I do agree that this is a steel that would be far better suited for something like a Nilakka sprint, but blades can also be reground. It just seems much more realistic to ask for new steels in a platform like the Military vs a knife that is already very obscure and may have problems selling.

[PayneTrain]

How many knife afis wanting crazy performance from their knives are going with BD1? That's the steel Spyderco uses in their budget lines along with 8Cr13Mov. AEBL isn't that different from either one.

I keep seeing it called a stainless 52100 (yes, mainly by Cliff), and people ate that one up, so why not AEB-L? And it is supposedly equivalent to a different CrMoV steel, I forget the numbers, but either way there has to be something to it and I certainly think it's worth at the very least Sal giving it a try. I don't like to put much stock into chemistry anymore with all the variables involved. There is way too much to know, and I'm not even going to try and argue metallurgy, nor do I want to keep parroting Cliff Stamp cuz I still won't know what I'm saying. It's much easier to just try it and see what happens! Who knows? It could be pedestrian, it could be a pleasant surprise! It works in chef knives, obviously works in razors, has been used in pocket knives (to what degree of success I am not sure), takes a high hardness, is old enough that there probably isn't much leg work to be done to nail down a heat treatment, it sounds like a good candidate to me!

[vivi]

How about an AEB-L Mule?

[Tdog]

I'd much prefer LC200N in a Millie. AEB-L would be very nice in a kitchen knife or Caly 3.5 (if ground very thin)

Agree fully with this post. RIL, Ti Millie with LC200n definitely works for me. Would also buy a lightweight Caly 3.5 or possibly kitchen knives in AEB-L. I have 2 knives in AEB-L both of which are razor sharp, but for me aren't hard use knives, primarily slicers. Here's a pic of nice knife in this steel.

[Zenith]

The main argument of AEB-L being similar to 52100 does not come from Cliff IMO, but rather from Metallurgist such as R. Landes and J.D. Verhoeven.


Either way. AEB-L, 14C28N, LC200N, any one of them I would love to own in a variation of the Military. My experience with them in customs (excluding lc200N but Nitrobe-77) have been very pleasant.

[Doc Dan]

I know how 14C28N, 12C27, and etc. perform and I simply do not see any benefit of a Military with a steel in this category (and one that is probably not as good as some in this category in many ways). I think I would take a pass on a Millie in this steel, all things considered.

[PayneTrain]

The main argument of AEB-L being similar to 52100 does not come from Cliff IMO, but rather from Metallurgist such as R. Landes and J.D. Verhoeven.

Very true, I suppose I was just using Cliff as a secondary source. Good correction to make. I don't want to contribute to misinformation!

[wrdwrght]

I almost jumped on the 52100 Millie but backed off, as I have with all Millies, simply because I want a RFP tip-up carry.

Then the catalog appeared with the Police4 (the Millie-Caly baby, I think you called it). SQUIRREL!!

With the large EDC Spydie that I really want soon to appear, I'll hope for AEB-L in another model that checks all my boxes, and perhaps not in vain. Hey, 52100 is coming in a PM2, to my surprise.

[wrdwrght]

Inadvertent post

[farnorthdan]

I buy all Military's, I've really been attracted to larger blades lately and the Military is just such a perfect piece, hard to believe how nice it carries for the size. The 52100 is my favorite so far, ended up with a few of those then it would be my Cruwear with micarta covers.

[Zenith]

Reading this thread made me remember a recent post by a maker.

[QUOTE=Horsewright;16550073]Over the last couple of years there have been numerous threads here on just how tough is AEB-L and how well does it hold an edge. Thought I'd share this with you. Few days back I come home from the ranch and find these two hoof knives on the bench. This is a matched set (right and left handed knives) I made for our local horse Vet who is also a good friend. I made these for him in Aug of 15. He estimated that he has used these at least once a day since then. A Vet uses hoof knives for digging out abscesses in a horse's hoof, not an uncommon problem. He was here last Jan doing so to one of my horses. I asked him then if he would like me to resharpen them and he declined saying simply "they don't need it." Hard to think of a more edge dulling medium than a horses hoof with all the barnyard muck, gravel, sand, dirt, mud manure etc. Let alone the hoof is pretty tough stuff even if its pristine (and they never are). Think about it this 1200 lb animal runs around carrying my 40 lb saddle and my 230 lb butt and then I rope a 2,000 lb bull going the other way and he can still walk afterwards. Tough stuff. So now Oct of 16 they finally needed resharpening. 1/8" AEB-L stock @ 63 RC with heat treat done by Peters. Turkish Walnut handles and Loveless bolts. I have declined making any further hoof knives cause these "bitc...." wanna jump off the grinder and bite ya. Anyhoo:

Still got some dried on gunk.





And then after sharpening and ran the handles over a clean buffing wheel.



AEB-L is plenty tough and holds an edge. Works well here.[/QUOTE]

AEB-L in the past by production companies have been, well, not done properly IMO. I believe many people would want AEB-L in the military platform, but with a good heat treatment, similar to what was done with the 52100 military. The feedback from the 52100 Military has been largely positive, so why not tempt the fans with a stainless 52100?

Devin Thomas have reported seeing blades at 64.5HRC after temper, who would not want a tough, stainless steel at that HRC? If it would be possible for Spyderco I do not know, but one could get to a good 62HRC consistently from my understanding if Cryo is possible for Spyderco.

[Evil D]

Well I know this much for sure, I don't want anything to do with sharpening that funky blade.

[me2]

Hopefully all of these guys tinkering with heat treatments talk with Kevin Cashen (who's name gets thrown around a lot by Cliff, too) who absolutely advocates sticking to industrial standard heat treatments because if it works for a huge die press it must work well for a knife blade. That's some BS and anyone who's been paying attention knows it is.

You'll have an uphill battle with that assertion.

Anyone who pushed for a 52100 Military should be OK with an AEB-L version. Similar properties, slightly higher wear resistance than 52100, and stainless. Why wouldn't there be one?

[Bodog]

Hopefully all of these guys tinkering with heat treatments talk with Kevin Cashen (who's name gets thrown around a lot by Cliff, too) who absolutely advocates sticking to industrial standard heat treatments because if it works for a huge die press it must work well for a knife blade. That's some BS and anyone who's been paying attention knows it is.

You'll have an uphill battle with that assertion.

Anyone who pushed for a 52100 Military should be OK with an AEB-L version. Similar properties, slightly higher wear resistance than 52100, and stainless. Why wouldn't there be one?

Not really.

by Kevin R. Cashen » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:21 am

Bogdan Moisuc wrote:
"... Now, most tool steels used in cutlery are not designed with cutlery in mind, so you can easily discard the mainstream manufacturer HT, which is usually balanced for thicker pieces in an industrial production workflow..."


I understand what you are saying in this particular context but usually when this concept is addressed in knifemaking conversations I normally disagree with it as a blanket statement. The shape the steel takes does not change its chemistry or physical properties and the idea that industrial heat treatment information does not apply to knives has been the excuse for all kinds of nonsensical information and ideas in the custom knifemaking field. Cross sections will affect cooling rates and initial temperature equalization, and that is about all I can think of that is different. So I felt compelled to point this out before the wrong information is conveyed too broadly.

In this circumstance I do see the idea of what you are saying. In this case, and others when dealing with more carbide volume, one does have the option of other heat treatments to affect wear resistance vs. toughness ratios, and so it is not a matter of discarding the manufacturers heat treatment as much as re-prioritizing the desired outcome. The heat treating principles still apply you just use them in a different way for the desired outcome. But then many such steels will actually give you different heat treatments in the manufacturers recommendations (e.g. high and low temp austenization recommendations) for different applications."

Not saying I know more than Kevin Cashen whatsoever but saying BU knows how to heat treat Vanadis 4E for knives better than Dan Keffeler is pushing the realm of common sense. I don't believe Dan Keffeler uses the heat treatment protocols published by BU. And if he did I don't think he'd be producing blades that work as well as they do.

I was looking for his statement that specifically said knifemakers need to follow only
the manufacturer recommended protocols. The aforementioned statement is close.

[Evil D]

I bet this thread would barely be on page 2 if people just said "no thanks" instead of arguing to the death about why it's such a horrible idea lol.

[Bodog]

I bet this thread would barely be on page 2 if people just said "no thanks" instead of arguing to the death about why it's such a horrible idea lol.

Yeah, but we like talking about knives or we wouldn't be here to begin with :)

[Nate]

:confused: I really don't see what Cashen has to do with anything...

To relate it back to Bluntcut, iirc, long ago Cliff started a thread on HypeFree to discuss the superquench Luong was experimenting with. I believe Cashen essentially moved to censor the discussion due to his strong belief on sticking to standard heat treats. At this point I believe Cliff stopped supporting that forum entirely due to his intolerance for censorship. So, yeah, Cliff has mentioned Cashen from time to time for various reasons, but I don't think that imples they agree on everything or that he is some groupie follower. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be that interested in AEB-L, etc., with a standard BU heat treat. If that's what I wanted, I would just regrind my Buck Vantage Avid or any other production knife in 12c27, 13c26, or AEB-l.

I'd like to see something done with a protocol suggested by Landes and/or Verhoeven so that people who are interested can evaluate the findings of their work.

[Evil D]

I bet this thread would barely be on page 2 if people just said "no thanks" instead of arguing to the death about why it's such a horrible idea lol.

Yeah, but we like talking about knives or we wouldn't be here to begin with :)

Well obviously I agree with that, but some of you seem to fight this idea as if you'll be forced to buy one against your will. I'm all for a healthy discussion but some of this is bordering on insults over something that nobody is forced to buy in the end. It just seems like a lot of wasted energy.