Sal, hope to hear from you

[FCM415]

By the OP's estimations, there are thousands out there running around with Spydercos that have this problem. Just have to be persistent so it doesn't get swept under the rug and definitely share your experiences.

Add me to the list of the "few". I sincerely believe that there are a lot more than you figure. I guess that I will be sending mine in to the warranty department and see if it gets fixed.

[Liquid Cobra]

I received mine today. Yes the washers are thin but the thing flips just fine. I can tell that there is a bit of drag as the lockbar moves across the blade but that's the only resistance I'm getting. And even then it's not they kind of resistance that affects the operation of the knife.

Just thought I'd chime in with a report of my knife specifically. Works great.

[Daniel]

As near as I can figure, there might have been a few that didn't satisfy their customer. Though I can say there are thousands of satisfied customers out there and we've not received any back with complaints. We believe that the washer could be a few thou thicker and we'll carefully study the issue, but we don't think it's on the lever of "Consumer warning".

sal

Add me to the list of the "few". I sincerely believe that there are a lot more than you figure. I guess that I will be sending mine in to the warranty department and see if it gets fixed.

Hi Daniel,

Please send it to my attention.

thanx,

sal

I can send it back. In fact, I will send back another knife with it that I have been meaning to send in-it has been in the warranty dept already.

Should go out Friday or Saturday this week.

[Bodog]

Then I guess I need to stay away from Spyderco's offerings with bearings. More for the people who are ok with them. All of these people who have been sharing are just isolated unsatisfied customers. Odd response. Had there been as many people asking for a new knife design, like the wharncliff delica, it probably would've been heavily considered for production. In this thread and others like it there have been a lot of different people speaking of their disappointment. I guess we're expecting too much. No big deal. There are a lot of options out there and if I really want a knife to have action as smooth as what bearings are supposed to offer, I'll go outside of spyderco. If I want knives that cut well and have good action on PB washers, I'll look at spyderco. I guess nothing more needs to be said from my end. I still like all of my Spyderco knives and they're all great pieces for their respective price range. And I'll still carry my military on duty all the time because it's so dang good. A good knife is a good knife.

Thanks for looking into it and letting us know how you guys are going to proceed so we can make educated decisions, Sal. You really are in a class of your own. Appreciate it and appreciate you running a forum where we can come and talk about this stuff without getting flamed, much.

And I'll still give a report of how the new bearings work out when I get them. If theyre any good I may even try to send it to Sal if he wants to check them out himself.

[ABX2011]

From what Sal wrote, it sounds like there's a good chance the bearing/washer assembly will be reworked for future runs of the Advocate and Mantra.
And that they will handle any warranty claims on an individual basis.
Sounds reasonable to me.

[sal]

I can say there are not thousands of Advocates out there. There might be thousands of flippers, but the Advocate is a new model.

sal

[sal]

I'm sure we'll CQI the flippers as we continue to make them. We're fairly new to the flipper game.

sal

[Bodog]

From what Sal wrote, it sounds like there's a good chance the bearing/washer assembly will be reworked for future runs of the Advocate and Mantra.
And that they will handle any warranty claims on an individual basis.
Sounds reasonable to me.

I firmly believe it's the bearing washers rather than the races alone. They're tiny bearings sitting in a lot of plastic. There's no way they spin as freely as they need to to allow a light blade free action. I believe some of the expectations created by other companies come from the same plastic cages being used, but with bigger bearings, thicker races, and much heavier blades that overcome the friction. Maybe that's why the nirvana had so few complaints. But that also negates a lot of custom makers using bearings with light blades having free action in their knives. So who knows. Spyderco is good with them and sounds like they're wanting to increase the race thickness but not replace the washers. We'll have to wait and see if that works. I have my doubts but it's their company, their knives, and their call.

[sal]

We believe if there is a problem, it is in the washers and perhaps over-tightening the pivot.

sal

[Bodog]

We believe if there is a problem, it is in the washers and perhaps over-tightening the pivot.

sal

It's a little ways out but if I throw these new bearing washers in and notice a significant improvement would you want to look at the knife? I'll keep the ones it came with and send them in so the comparison could be made if you want. That's all on the assumption that there'd be an improvement. There may not be and it'd be moot. Just let me know.

[dogrunner]

As near as I can figure, there might have been a few that didn't satisfy their customer. Though I can say there are thousands of satisfied customers out there and we've not received any back with complaints. We believe that the washer could be a few thou thicker and we'll carefully study the issue, but we don't think it's on the lever of "Consumer warning".

sal

My Mantra2 flipped great until it stopped flipping. I did try adjusting the pivot at that point, which only led to blade play and then I could not get it centered. I sent it in and the nice person at CS told me there was no warranty issue. I don't know if it is on its way back or not, the last I heard was a few weeks ago before the holiday. I would not mind if it did not flip if there was an alternate opening mechanism, but there is not on the Mantra2. I bought it because I liked the blade shape and steel. At this point my only question is, how do I get this knife to work (open reliably) so I can use it? I love my spydercos, but am frustrated with this one. None of the others required extra measures to keep them working (but only one other is a flipper, the original Southard.

[sal]

"No more than necessary and no less than perfect". It will only take few thou. We'll sneak up on it. You can test if you want, if you do, keep me posted.

sal

[sal]

As near as I can figure, there might have been a few that didn't satisfy their customer. Though I can say there are thousands of satisfied customers out there and we've not received any back with complaints. We believe that the washer could be a few thou thicker and we'll carefully study the issue, but we don't think it's on the lever of "Consumer warning".

sal

My Mantra2 flipped great until it stopped flipping. I did try adjusting the pivot at that point, which only led to blade play and then I could not get it centered. I sent it in and the nice person at CS told me there was no warranty issue. I don't know if it is on its way back or not, the last I heard was a few weeks ago before the holiday. I would not mind if it did not flip if there was an alternate opening mechanism, but there is not on the Mantra2. I bought it because I liked the blade shape and steel. At this point my only question is, how do I get this knife to work (open reliably) so I can use it? I love my spydercos, but am frustrated with this one. None of the others required extra measures to keep them working (but only one other is a flipper, the original Southard.

Hi Dogrunner,

Do we still have it?

sal

[Evil D]

Even if the bearings did not roll in the cages whatsoever, the action would still be easier and smoother than washers alone because of the drastically smaller surface contact that a ball bearing makes compared to a typical washer only pivot. I highly doubt the issue is the bearings themselves, as they can only be as smooth as what they are riding on. It doesn't matter if the bearings are rolling or not if they're moving along a washer that has dents in it.

[dogrunner]

As near as I can figure, there might have been a few that didn't satisfy their customer. Though I can say there are thousands of satisfied customers out there and we've not received any back with complaints. We believe that the washer could be a few thou thicker and we'll carefully study the issue, but we don't think it's on the lever of "Consumer warning".

sal

My Mantra2 flipped great until it stopped flipping. I did try adjusting the pivot at that point, which only led to blade play and then I could not get it centered. I sent it in and the nice person at CS told me there was no warranty issue. I don't know if it is on its way back or not, the last I heard was a few weeks ago before the holiday. I would not mind if it did not flip if there was an alternate opening mechanism, but there is not on the Mantra2. I bought it because I liked the blade shape and steel. At this point my only question is, how do I get this knife to work (open reliably) so I can use it? I love my spydercos, but am frustrated with this one. None of the others required extra measures to keep them working (but only one other is a flipper, the original Southard.

Hi Dogrunner,

Do we still have it?

sal

hi Sal,
I don't know - I don't have it back, but it might be in transit? I think the reference number was Ref: 80072.
My last contact with CS was 12/7.
I included in that a description of what I was seeing and what I tried to fix it.

I'd be happy to send it back to you at my expense, if you don't still have it. Just to give you a chance to look it over.

I am a long-time spyderco customer and fan and this is the first one in nearly 30 yrs that I can recall having a problem other than when I accidently dropped my PM1 onto a concrete floor at broke the tip Definitely not a spyderco problem in that instance. Thank you for your attention to this matter and for great products!

[sal]

Hi Dogrunner,

I'll contact Charlynn. Yes, I'd like to see it.

sal

[curlyhairedboy]

As someone who has a number of Spyderco flippers, I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I've only ever had cosmetic issues with any Spyderco knife I've purchased, and certainly nothing that affected the functionality (cutting performance, lockup, etc.) Stuff like relative flipping performance or smoothness is nice to have - expected even - but not a 'core mission quality'.

I like centered blades, smooth flippers with the detents dialed in so well you can light switch them while holding them vertically, symmetrical primary and secondary grinds, just to name a few things I look for. I wouldn't consider the lack of them grounds for calling a knife defective, but i'll certainly pick a knife that meets my standards given a choice.

Sal, I've always been impressed by Spyderco's connection to its consumers. I remain a fan for life. Eager to see how this goes!

[jtoler_9]

Interesting thread. I've had two Dominos. Flipped fast, but when I close them it feels like the action was going over small potholes. It's bumpy. I haven't ran them enough to see if it creates an issue yet. I'll be interested to see where this conversation leads.

[zeroed4x]

Its great to know that Sal is on this. I hope we stay updated as this all progresses.

[Larry_Mott]

I have said for a long time that people aren't doing themselves (or others) any favors by *****ing in forums and applying band-aid workarounds instead of sending the knives back along with a note describing the issue. CQI remedies would come a lot faster that way i feel.

Sal - It is not really any of my business, and i believe you have your reasons, but i still kinda wonder why Spyderco don't use the IKBS system?
I have a couple of, relatively inexpensive CRKT folders featuring the IKBS and they are, and have been since unboxed - smooth as glass.
Btw, i definetly feel you have a point in over-tightened pivot. I bought an aftermarket scale for my Southard, and after reassembling it was like a new knife! And i did notice the pivot screw seemed very tight when i disassembled it.