Sal, hope to hear from you

[captnvegtble]

then theres just the people that stand in the middle, add nothing to the actual subject and complain about people complaining.

Yup, you're right... I have nothing to add to the subject because I don't own a single flipper and have no plans on buying one in the future because they typically don't interest me, although I like Spyderco knives so I find this discussion and Spyderco's response interesting. Seems like a sensible and balanced stance to take on the topic (i.e. being in the middle).

I will say that "adding" more to a discussion is not necessarily a positive thing. Sometimes the best input is no input. Certainly seems like if there is nothing NEW or constructive to add, probably it's better not to say anything. I find that most of the time the middle road is usually the right path to be on, avoiding the extremes. Not a new concept... Aristotle seemed to figured that one out a couple millennia ago.

[four_shore]

Its no secret that more often than not spydercos on bearings are gritty with poor action.

^ I find that hard to believe! No question some have issues but I don't think the problem is as broad as you state.

And its not anything to dismiss either, hence Sal looking further into it. I think it's bigger than what's been accepted before and yeah, I'd bet the issue affects far more people than care about it. But some DO care about it and know the difference between good and bad actions.

Sucks that it's spyderco but it is. For all of the good of Spyderco this one isn't that. Needs some serious behind the closed factory doors re-evaluation and comparison with what other companies are putting out in these price ranges. And if Spyderco cannot nail it down almost 100% then they need to scrap the idea and work on it in private until they do. That'd keep all this nonsense from rearing up like this.

You can take it or not, no issues with me, but all of the people who've had these issues and just now recognized them are wishing that Spyderco hadn't sold them these knives with these issues. What they don't want to hear is that their concerns aren't meritorious or that they're lying or that their opinions are being cast aside because to them they ARE seeing these issues and could very well dismiss Spyderco as a company to buy from in the future if people like you try to cast them aside from the Spyderco fan community.

The best thing to do is to let the people air their grievances, let Spyderco hear them, and let Spyderco decide what to do from there. What Spyderco DOESN'T need is for OTHER customers to speak on behalf of spyderco and defend what clearly shouldn't be defended. That's a for sure way to build animosity that I'm sure Spyderco doesn't want. Spyderco is very capable of defending and speaking for themselves if they so choose.

It takes a lot to get pretty dedicated fans to speak out about issues like this.

First off, when Sal says he'll look into it, you don't need to keep typing. He will. His word is gold.

Second, chill out. You're speaking of a knives that are a hobby and some are "pocket jewelry". They work just fine as tools, but even when they don't, Spyderco will fix it.

Your posts give me the impression that you are an under 30 person who feels very entitled. I think you should just relax and let this lay for a bit so Spyderco has some time to look at stuff. No need to suggest/tell Spyderco what they need to do. What background/experience do you even have to dictate what should be done?

Call the doctor, somebody has fanboyitis.
So i'm trying to figure out the point of your post...
We're all here because we love spyderco and trust sal. No need to get defensive, insulting and make age assumptions based on someones response. Sometimes as consumers if we have high expectations and get let down it comes out (unintentionally) in a frustrated kind of way.
Attempting to patronize us by saying they work fine as tool is a futile remark. These tools are top of the line production knives that cost a decent amount of money (both the manufacturer and customer pay more for extra features).
The purpose of bearings is to enhance the action, so why bother further complicating a knife with a flawed 4 piece bearing system if it tends to worsen the action?

No ones bashing the company so cool your jets.

Sal, thanks for looking into this and please keep us posted.

Riiiiiiight.

then theres just the people that stand in the middle, add nothing to the actual subject and complain about people complaining.

Again, wrong. I get tired of new people coming to the forum and behaving like fools. If you hung around a while and learned something before spouting off it would do you some good. You don't just go walk into a house as a guest and start yelling and drawing attention to yourself. Don't do it here.

so in your world people raising legitimate concerns about an issue is considered spouting off and behaving like a fool?

look, i can understand being a little defensive at times but in this case it's truly redundant because no one is doing anything remotely close to what you're claiming..

and fwiw ive been a spyderco customer for 15 years so all that "if you hung around" talk is just more assuming from the only person in here that really seems like they're looking to argue.

oh and ftr i don't think anyone was "yelling"..

calm down some. life is too short to be angry and oversensitive. we all have the utmost respect for spyderco which is why we are here in the first place.

[Fred Sanford]

Its no secret that more often than not spydercos on bearings are gritty with poor action.

^ I find that hard to believe! No question some have issues but I don't think the problem is as broad as you state.

And its not anything to dismiss either, hence Sal looking further into it. I think it's bigger than what's been accepted before and yeah, I'd bet the issue affects far more people than care about it. But some DO care about it and know the difference between good and bad actions.

Sucks that it's spyderco but it is. For all of the good of Spyderco this one isn't that. Needs some serious behind the closed factory doors re-evaluation and comparison with what other companies are putting out in these price ranges. And if Spyderco cannot nail it down almost 100% then they need to scrap the idea and work on it in private until they do. That'd keep all this nonsense from rearing up like this.

You can take it or not, no issues with me, but all of the people who've had these issues and just now recognized them are wishing that Spyderco hadn't sold them these knives with these issues. What they don't want to hear is that their concerns aren't meritorious or that they're lying or that their opinions are being cast aside because to them they ARE seeing these issues and could very well dismiss Spyderco as a company to buy from in the future if people like you try to cast them aside from the Spyderco fan community.

The best thing to do is to let the people air their grievances, let Spyderco hear them, and let Spyderco decide what to do from there. What Spyderco DOESN'T need is for OTHER customers to speak on behalf of spyderco and defend what clearly shouldn't be defended. That's a for sure way to build animosity that I'm sure Spyderco doesn't want. Spyderco is very capable of defending and speaking for themselves if they so choose.

It takes a lot to get pretty dedicated fans to speak out about issues like this.

First off, when Sal says he'll look into it, you don't need to keep typing. He will. His word is gold.

Second, chill out. You're speaking of a knives that are a hobby and some are "pocket jewelry". They work just fine as tools, but even when they don't, Spyderco will fix it.

Your posts give me the impression that you are an under 30 person who feels very entitled. I think you should just relax and let this lay for a bit so Spyderco has some time to look at stuff. No need to suggest/tell Spyderco what they need to do. What background/experience do you even have to dictate what should be done?

Call the doctor, somebody has fanboyitis.
So i'm trying to figure out the point of your post...
We're all here because we love spyderco and trust sal. No need to get defensive, insulting and make age assumptions based on someones response. Sometimes as consumers if we have high expectations and get let down it comes out (unintentionally) in a frustrated kind of way.
Attempting to patronize us by saying they work fine as tool is a futile remark. These tools are top of the line production knives that cost a decent amount of money (both the manufacturer and customer pay more for extra features).
The purpose of bearings is to enhance the action, so why bother further complicating a knife with a flawed 4 piece bearing system if it tends to worsen the action?

No ones bashing the company so cool your jets.

Sal, thanks for looking into this and please keep us posted.

Riiiiiiight.

then theres just the people that stand in the middle, add nothing to the actual subject and complain about people complaining.

Again, wrong. I get tired of new people coming to the forum and behaving like fools. If you hung around a while and learned something before spouting off it would do you some good. You don't just go walk into a house as a guest and start yelling and drawing attention to yourself. Don't do it here.

so in your world people raising legitimate concerns about an issue is considered spouting off and behaving like a fool?

look, i can understand being a little defensive at times but in this case it's truly redundant because no one is doing anything remotely close to what you're claiming..

and fwiw ive been a spyderco customer for 15 years so all that "if you hung around" talk is just more assuming from the only person in here that really seems like they're looking to argue.

oh and ftr i don't think anyone was "yelling"..

calm down some. life is too short to be angry and oversensitive. we all have the utmost respect for spyderco which is why we are here in the first place.

I give up. You win.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Daniel]

Well, I sent my Advocate to Sal last Saturday and it now appears that the USPS has either lost it or stolen it. Its' whereabouts are unknown--not showing any tracking since it left my town on Saturday. It was supposed to be delivered yesterday.

Out $220 and no knife! Thanks United States Postal Service!

[Archimedes]

Well, I sent my Advocate to Sal last Saturday and it now appears that the USPS has either lost it or stolen it. Its' whereabouts are unknown--not showing any tracking since it left my town on Saturday. It was supposed to be delivered yesterday.

Out $220 and no knife! Thanks United States Postal Service!

Give it some time. They are always slow on delivery this time of year. Could be weather related or could be just rerouted to the wrong place. It happens all the time. I by rule don't panic until it is gone missing for at least 7 days. I once had a Priority mail missing for 3 weeks and then it turned up.

I had a UPS 3 day air take 10 days 2 weeks ago. What a mess but it got here. :D

[Daniel]

Normally, I don't get too excited, but this time there is no record of it moving after it left the post office in my town. Nothing-no scans since Saturday. Spyderco is only one state away.

Hope for the best-expect the worst.

[Evil D]

Well, I sent my Advocate to Sal last Saturday and it now appears that the USPS has either lost it or stolen it. Its' whereabouts are unknown--not showing any tracking since it left my town on Saturday. It was supposed to be delivered yesterday.

Out $220 and no knife! Thanks United States Postal Service!

Always opt for shipping insurance.

[Bodog]

Sent in the mantra and the sprint PPT that had the problem with the TiCN.

[Daniel]

Well, I sent my Advocate to Sal last Saturday and it now appears that the USPS has either lost it or stolen it. Its' whereabouts are unknown--not showing any tracking since it left my town on Saturday. It was supposed to be delivered yesterday.

Out $220 and no knife! Thanks United States Postal Service!

Always opt for shipping insurance.

I used to always pay for insurance and they refused to pay out--twice. It is a waste of money.

[JRinFL]

...Maybe Sal and Eric could come up with a front flipper? ... Front flipper anyone? :cool:

Yes, please! However Spyderco shouldn't bother with flippers of any kind if the action is worse than the ZT knives, IMO of course.
I stopped buying Spyderco flippers after the Dice and Domino with their slow unsatisfactory flipping action. They work fine as hole openers.

[ABX2011]

Well, I sent my Advocate to Sal last Saturday and it now appears that the USPS has either lost it or stolen it. Its' whereabouts are unknown--not showing any tracking since it left my town on Saturday. It was supposed to be delivered yesterday.

Out $220 and no knife! Thanks United States Postal Service!

Always opt for shipping insurance.

I used to always pay for insurance and they refused to pay out--twice. It is a waste of money.

I've noticed packages aren't getting scanned as often lately. I thought it was related to the holidays but now they're past. More often I'm seeing the message "in transit to destination." Days pass and then it shows up somewhere.
Let us know.

[fanglekai]

...Maybe Sal and Eric could come up with a front flipper? ... Front flipper anyone? :cool:

Yes, please! However Spyderco shouldn't bother with flippers of any kind if the action is worse than the ZT knives, IMO of course.
I stopped buying Spyderco flippers after the Dice and Domino with their slow unsatisfactory flipping action. They work fine as hole openers.

My Domino flips hard and fast. It's very smooth.

[ChrisinHove]

Just spitballing ideas here. Makers with experience or engineers can tell me where these ideas might fail.



I think pre-grooved bearing race washers would solve the problem without abandoning the existing stock of bearing washers (provided a matching size can be sourced), and potentially not require re-machining existing designs. Or maybe even washers that merely elevate the ball bearings off the handle scale would suffice, with the wear being in the radial direction.

A hardened bearing race would be a proper, engineering answer, but I guess the extra thickness would be an issue as a retro-fit solution here. Would be phenomenally smooth, though!

[Bodog]

Ceramic detent balls would also help. Finishing/polishing the area on the tang where the detent ball and ball bearings ride would also really help.

[SF Native]

Normally, I don't get too excited, but this time there is no record of it moving after it left the post office in my town. Nothing-no scans since Saturday. Spyderco is only one state away.

Hope for the best-expect the worst.

Hang in there. I think it will show up. Probably delayed by weather. Not sure how Colorado is doing but not cal just got hammered. Lake Tahoe got 9 feet of snow in 2 days.

[Daniel]

It finally came back from the dead! It is supposed to be delivered today. It disappeared for 6 days, taking that long to ship from Arizona to Colorado. A mule would have been faster!

[awa54]

Dang man, the hits just keep coming. I keep this lubed with fireclean which, ime, is better than frog lube.

Over the past week I've been carrying the mantra and any free time I've been able to I've been flipping the knife trying to smooth it out and free the action up. As it's smoothed out I noticed the detent kept getting lighter and lighter. I just thought it was gummy crap getting stuck in the detent hole. Today it seemed really bad like there was no detent left at all (and cut myself because the blade opened in my pocket) so I took it apart and found this, the detent ball is completely worn down to a flat surface. To say it's frustrating is putting it lightly. But since I opened it I have no warranty so I'm out of a knife. This wasn't just opening it to tinker, this was to identify a problem that wouldn't have been identified by spyderco, as shown by dogrunner. I kind of want to throw the damned thing away. Anyone want to buy a slightly used mantra?

Can anyone confirm if the detent ball came slightly flat from the factory?

I don't know what steel they're using for the detent ball but if the grind lines in the blade are capable of wearing the ball down within a week of trying to free the action of the knife, something is wrong with that too. Frick man. Disappointing. There's only one word at this point. Failure. Why the f!&# didn't this mantra work right? It's such a great overall design.

My first thought looking at this pic is "holy **** that's a lot of lube!" Something with an open bearing like that (or even a bronze washer) should be lubed *lightly* with a lube that doesn't migrate and doesn't attract dirt...

On the subject of lube based solutions, adding oil to a gritty detent ball is usually a recipe for an even grittier detent ball once the knife has been in your pocket for a few hours. Often the culprit with detent grittiness is crud in the recess that the detent ball seats in on the tang, lube can't remove that, only disassembly and thorough cleaning can fix it.

I for one am not a fan of ball bearings in knife pivots, they *are* sexy and high tech, but they're too easy to get grit in and they concentrate side-load forces into a small group of hot spots, compared to the large area presented by a solid washer with the same footprint. My personal preference if I owned one of the offending knives would be to retrofit a set of appropriately sized PB washers in place of the ball race assemblies, It would be cool if Spyderco could offer that as an option to people who are having issues with these knives, but this may be a perfect opportunity for the aftermarket... model specific bushing conversion kits, I'm sure somebody could make a few bucks off of those.

It'll be interesting to see what the final solution from our favorite knife brand winds up being!

[Bodog]

Dang man, the hits just keep coming. I keep this lubed with fireclean which, ime, is better than frog lube.

Over the past week I've been carrying the mantra and any free time I've been able to I've been flipping the knife trying to smooth it out and free the action up. As it's smoothed out I noticed the detent kept getting lighter and lighter. I just thought it was gummy crap getting stuck in the detent hole. Today it seemed really bad like there was no detent left at all (and cut myself because the blade opened in my pocket) so I took it apart and found this, the detent ball is completely worn down to a flat surface. To say it's frustrating is putting it lightly. But since I opened it I have no warranty so I'm out of a knife. This wasn't just opening it to tinker, this was to identify a problem that wouldn't have been identified by spyderco, as shown by dogrunner. I kind of want to throw the damned thing away. Anyone want to buy a slightly used mantra?

Can anyone confirm if the detent ball came slightly flat from the factory?

I don't know what steel they're using for the detent ball but if the grind lines in the blade are capable of wearing the ball down within a week of trying to free the action of the knife, something is wrong with that too. Frick man. Disappointing. There's only one word at this point. Failure. Why the f!&# didn't this mantra work right? It's such a great overall design.

My first thought looking at this pic is "holy **** that's a lot of lube!" Something with an open bearing like that (or even a bronze washer) should be lubed *lightly* with a lube that doesn't migrate and doesn't attract dirt...

On the subject of lube based solutions, adding oil to a gritty detent ball is usually a recipe for an even grittier detent ball once the knife has been in your pocket for a few hours. Often the culprit with detent grittiness is crud in the recess that the detent ball seats in on the tang, lube can't remove that, only disassembly and thorough cleaning can fix it.

I for one am not a fan of ball bearings in knife pivots, they *are* sexy and high tech, but they're too easy to get grit in and they concentrate side-load forces into a small group of hot spots, compared to the large area presented by a solid washer with the same footprint. My personal preference if I owned one of the offending knives would be to retrofit a set of appropriately sized PB washers in place of the ball race assemblies, It would be cool if Spyderco could offer that as an option to people who are having issues with these knives, but this may be a perfect opportunity for the aftermarket... model specific bushing conversion kits, I'm sure somebody could make a few bucks off of those.

It'll be interesting to see what the final solution from our favorite knife brand winds up being!

Yeah, that was multiple applications over the course of a week trying to free the action up. And when you can't open a knife, a drop of lube on each side ends up looking like that anyway. It's not like we're supposed to open the knife, put a small drop right where it's supposed to go, then close her up. I guess I could buy a $30 bottle of lube with a small pin dropper and do it differently. I don't believe high dollar knives should require that much forethought.

[Daniel]

Well, my Advocate has been at Spyderco for 3 weeks and I still have not heard anything. I am wondering how long it will be before I see my knife again?

I still think that the way to fix it is to mill a pocket in the scales and insert a stainless bearing race instead of using these thin washers. Now, my Southard is starting to grind in the pivot, also. Unfortunately, I did take it apart-unlike my Advocate, to install an aftermarket scale, so it is not under warranty now.

[awa54]

Yeah, that was multiple applications over the course of a week trying to free the action up. And when you can't open a knife, a drop of lube on each side ends up looking like that anyway. It's not like we're supposed to open the knife, put a small drop right where it's supposed to go, then close her up. I guess I could buy a $30 bottle of lube with a small pin dropper and do it differently. I don't believe high dollar knives should require that much forethought.

I'm a warranty voider for sure... my preferred treatment once a knife has been in service long enough to get a bit gritty (or if one came that way but has no other issues) is to do at least a pivot/blade teardown, clean all of the mating surfaces then apply a tiny dab of Molybdenum disulfide grease to the bearing surfaces (not lock faces though!) and carefully reassemble. This works better for me than any liquid lubes, giving great blade glide but without the worry of lube migration or attracting grit. It takes time and a small amount of skill, as well as knowing about and having a source for Moly-di, but is hardly rocket science for a mechanically inclined person.

I'm OK with high-dollar/high-performance knives needing a little more care to perform at their best, the reward is worth the extra effort!