Sal, hope to hear from you

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Bodog
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Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:19 pm

I know it might be touchy but I'm hoping to hear from you about the issues with the bearing system coming in knives from the Taiwan factory.

There's a lot going on within the Facebook and instagram communities regarding this stuff. ApostleP, who has a large following, just put out a fairly damning Youtube video about this particular system even though he kept it isolated to the Advocate alone. He's also a devout Christian and holds his tongue quite strictly.

We'really your most ardent fans and supporters. These bearings, in the words of ApostleP, are bush league. None of us want to say that but it's true. Some can ignore the faults with the system, others can't.

I can guarantee that those who are on the fence about the models with this bearing system will absolutely halt buying anything with them in it. They should.

We all admire and respect you. That is without question. I really do hope to hear an up front and genuine answer saying this crap is being immediately ditched and from now on something better, even if not as "cool" as bearings, will be offered. All production of anything with these bearings will be halted until something better is available.

I think most of the people that have had issues with these bearings would much rather have PB washers instead of bearings, comparatively speaking.

Sal, these bearings are terrible compared to what else is on the market, even from cheap crap that none of us want to ever seriously consider. It's the truth, even if ugly. I'm sorry to put this out there like this, but there's been nothing from you guys about this. It isn't new, its just been swept under the rug until now.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby delphidoc » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:25 pm

I wasn't aware there was a problem with bearings on knives from Taiwan. How about some links or something else to justify your position?

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Molle Ninja » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:51 pm

delphidoc wrote:I wasn't aware there was a problem with bearings on knives from Taiwan. How about some links or something else to justify your position?
I recall seeing posts here re: the Mantra (?) with the issue the OP is driving at. I think the consensus was that the factory was over tightening the pivot and driving the bearings into their races and deforming them, causing the knife to not flip well.

Only Spyderco flipper I've owned--a Dice--would hardly open until I loosened the pivot, then all was good.

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Evil D » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:12 pm

I think washer options may be something to look into, some material that isn't as soft and prone to denting. I found a solution that worked for me and now my Mantra is the smoothest pivot I own and it has absolutely no blade play whatsoever. I've never had an issue with my Southard.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby zeroed4x » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:20 pm

Anxiously I am awaiting Sal's reply to this obvious design flaw. The horns of this dilemma seem rather sharp.

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby dreadpirate » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:07 pm

Evil D wrote:I think washer options may be something to look into, some material that isn't as soft and prone to denting. I found a solution that worked for me and now my Mantra is the smoothest pivot I own and it has absolutely no blade play whatsoever. I've never had an issue with my Southard.
Just saw your You Tube as I have a Mantra on the way. OBTW - I handled an Advocate at a gun show and I believe it has the same issues. Anyways, if one just uses the knife, won't it just wear in and then it's problem solved?

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:01 am

dreadpirate wrote:
Evil D wrote:I think washer options may be something to look into, some material that isn't as soft and prone to denting. I found a solution that worked for me and now my Mantra is the smoothest pivot I own and it has absolutely no blade play whatsoever. I've never had an issue with my Southard.
Just saw your You Tube as I have a Mantra on the way. OBTW - I handled an Advocate at a gun show and I believe it has the same issues. Anyways, if one just uses the knife, won't it just wear in and then it's problem solved?
It concerns at the very least the Domino, Mantra, and Advocate. No, the problem does not go away with use, it gets worse. Some people seem to have gotten these knives without the issues. Quite a few people have received them WITH the issues and some are respected people so it's not a bunch of trolls just knocking Spyderco over something little. I wonder if Taiwan is sending only the best samples to Golden to check out so the issue isn't well known to those at Spyderco. Since the knife still functions it probably isn't something most people are willing to ship the knife into Colorado over so I have to doubt there's been a big push within Spyderco to change anything.

I've seen some reports going back to the Southard about problems with the bearings but I don't know if they use the same caged bearings and thin bearing washer.

Firmly tightening the pivot to purposefully cup the washer may or may not work. It did not work for me on the mantra. With others it did.

If there's no response from Spyderco about this then I expect there will be none in the future and I'll just stay away from Spyderco bearing pivots from here on until they change it.

Between the threads and youtube videos there are now thousands and thousands of people who've seen the issue. This is just a little bit of looking on my part.

Discussions where these issues have been brought up:

Advocate:
//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... =2&t=72844

Mantra:
//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... a+bearings

Between the next two youtube videos there have been 7,000 views. I would bet at least several hundred of those viewers were contemplating buying the advocate and didn't and won't in its current form.

ApostleP youtube video on the advocate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG7Mq-X ... e=youtu.be

ApostleP video on the mantra, same issues though he didn't have the problem nailed down at that point. Shows just how bad it is without being disrespectful. 11:15 onwards:
https://youtu.be/Cvvx_2rkRLc

Paul Manning youtube video on the advocate (hit the nail on the head):
https://youtu.be/JQv_nm85UKs

Another one, same complaints:
https://youtu.be/9a2e6MZXIo4

YouTube video in Russian but shows the issue quite well in a Domino:
https://youtu.be/-s35nACB9lI

And within the Russian video there's a genuine fix, not the bandaid that only cups the original washers. $9 on aliexpress. $18 for two. Whoa, that's a long Web address. Downloaded the aliexpress app to order here in the US.

https://m.ru.aliexpress.com/s/item/3256 ... y#autostay


What would, in my opinion, be the best thing, considering their stance that most people are incapable of properly taking a knife apart and putting it back together, is for spyderco to order a bunch of better captive bearing washers and issue a recall on any bearing knife spyderco has produced with these tiny bearings and fix the problem for their customers. But that's ALOT of knives already out in the wild. Maybe they could just send the new, better washers out to those who request them. But then they'd have to accept that people are capable of opening their knives and putting in some new bearing washers, which I doubt spyderco will do. So there's not a good answer.
Last edited by Bodog on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby sal » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:01 am

We'll look into it.

sal

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:03 am

sal wrote:We'll look into it.

sal
Thank you sir.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:23 am

I've been extremely impressed with the pivot action in my newest Military. So much so that I haven't felt the need to take it apart and grease the pivot, and in fact have yet to even touch any of the screws for any adjustments at all after 3 months of EDC. That pivot is still as solid as the day it was unboxed and the blade falls freely with gravity. I have absolutely no doubt this knife would flip with the best of them without bearings. Unfortunately not all knives have or come with pivots this dialed in.

I think the bearings have potential. I can't argue against the issues people are having, because mine had the same issue everyone is having. I will point out that my Mantra flipped just fine prior to me tweaking the pivot, the problem was only noticeable when opening slowly with my thumb and then I could feel the dents in the washers. I don't know how other companies do bearing pivots but what I know about bearings is that they need an equally hard and wear resistant bearing race to roll on or this sort of thing will definitely happen. On a similar topic this may be an issue if we ever want to see a Manix 2 in a steel like H1 that isn't super hard or wear resistant.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Fred Sanford » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:32 am

I don't own any knives with bearings simply because I think it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I prefer PB washers. No need to put roller or ball bearings in something that is not spinning at high speed. It has become a fad that is annoying.

ApostleP is a WAY nitpicky about stuff by the way. He seems to think every knife needs to be taken apart and cleaned and lubed and polished. Part of the problem is you have people that don't know much about knives taking what he says as fact.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:45 am

David Lowry wrote:I don't own any knives with bearings simply because I think it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I prefer PB washers. No need to put roller or ball bearings in something that is not spinning at high speed. It has become a fad that is annoying.

ApostleP is a WAY nitpicky about stuff by the way. He seems to think every knife needs to be taken apart and cleaned and lubed and polished. Part of the problem is you have people that don't know much about knives taking what he says as fact.

I'm not going to argue about your post. I'll say he's not being overly picky about this. People pay a lot of money for knives nicer than you can buy at autozone. People expect them to be better in every way than knives at autozone. If they're not, the company should hear about the issue. And people shouldn't just shrug their shoulders and buy whatever these companies produce even if something sucks about them. It's not like this is some personal preference. If you had a knife that was so hard to unlock you needed to pry it open with a screwdriver, you wouldn't want someone coming in and telling you it's not a big deal and that you're being nitpicky. You'd want to bring the issue up to the company and have them look into it, which Sal is going to do. I don't have anything else to say. I'm sure Spyderco will come up with something, even if it's that they just stop using these from here on out.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:56 am

That's kind of the point I was trying to make. My Mantra functioned 100% fine. FUNCTIONED. But, I wouldn't disagree with anyone if they said it was disappointing to feel the dents while opening with your thumb. From a flipper perspective it flipped and did what it was designed to do 100% just fine, but there's a thumb hole there also and that part was disappointing compared to other knives I own that don't have bearings in the pivot. It seems to me a bearing pivot should offer the smoothest opening possible, and it did not. My knife most likely would have passed any quality check you would put a flipper through, up until the point that you opened it slowly with just your thumb. It is a nitpicky detail, no doubt about it, but I think the fact that the pivot is of the bearing type, which automatically makes you expect super smooth action, the notchy feeling is more of a shock since you expect it to be silky smooth.

People are prone to defend the brand. I'm guilty of that myself. People also have different expectations, and what is unacceptable to one person will seem ridiculous to complain about to the next person. I agree that this is a topic that has popped up enough that some investigation needs to happen, but I also fully believe that the problem is one that most people will never even notice, and that we AFI's obsess over every detail because that's what we do. Regardless, the OP is right in that these You Tube personalities are out there spreading the wrong kind of gospel about these knives, and it needs to be addressed if for no other reason than to protect the business. The Mantra is way too amazing of a knife to see it get discoed or lose sales because of this issue. I personally am holding my breath for the first awesome sprint of this knife, and if people keep bashing the design then dealers/etc will be reluctant to take the risk on a sprint.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 am

Evil D wrote:That's kind of the point I was trying to make. My Mantra functioned 100% fine. FUNCTIONED. But, I wouldn't disagree with anyone if they said it was disappointing to feel the dents while opening with your thumb. From a flipper perspective it flipped and did what it was designed to do 100% just fine, but there's a thumb hole there also and that part was disappointing compared to other knives I own that don't have bearings in the pivot. It seems to me a bearing pivot should offer the smoothest opening possible, and it did not. My knife most likely would have passed any quality check you would put a flipper through, up until the point that you opened it slowly with just your thumb. It is a nitpicky detail, no doubt about it, but I think the fact that the pivot is of the bearing type, which automatically makes you expect super smooth action, the notchy feeling is more of a shock since you expect it to be silky smooth.

People are prone to defend the brand. I'm guilty of that myself. People also have different expectations, and what is unacceptable to one person will seem ridiculous to complain about to the next person. I agree that this is a topic that has popped up enough that some investigation needs to happen, but I also fully believe that the problem is one that most people will never even notice, and that we AFI's obsess over every detail because that's what we do. Regardless, the OP is right in that these You Tube personalities are out there spreading the wrong kind of gospel about these knives, and it needs to be addressed if for no other reason than to protect the business. The Mantra is way too amazing of a knife to see it get discoed or lose sales because of this issue. I personally am holding my breath for the first awesome sprint of this knife, and if people keep bashing the design then dealers/etc will be reluctant to take the risk on a sprint.

Yeah, I like everything about the mantra except this iteration of bearings. It's a really well done knife and for the price it's pretty hard to beat. And it fits nicely into an otherwise pretty neglected price range. But those bearings, man. You wouldn't find those in much of anything more than cheap gas station knives. Not the way they function.

Even Nick Shabazz in his Nirvana maintenance video commented about how the action kind of sucked and the nirvana isn't even a flipper. He didn't stay on that topic very long. There was some mention of it in the comments and it was at least part of the reason he sold it. Not everyone is Nick Shabazz but people do watch his videos and read his comments. Same with these other guys. It's not a huge life or death issue but it's something that has consistently been a letdown and so easily fixed if spyderco would just fix it. Some really, really spectacular knives designed and priced so only knife nuts would buy them have been a flop and the action of some of these is at least one real reason why. I hope someone didn't spend a fortune on crates of these bearings because they need to be trashed so the knives can live up to their potential.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby bearfacedkiller » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:07 am

I agree that bearings in a knife are a solution looking for a problem. I like simple things and simple things work and they work reliably. PB washers have given me some silky smooth knives and have been 100% reliable. To me bearings add cost and complexity and that is about it. I would buy both Mantras and an Advocate if they didn't have bearings or internal stop pins. They would also both be cheaper.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Fred Sanford » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:14 am

Bodog wrote:
David Lowry wrote:I don't own any knives with bearings simply because I think it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I prefer PB washers. No need to put roller or ball bearings in something that is not spinning at high speed. It has become a fad that is annoying.

ApostleP is a WAY nitpicky about stuff by the way. He seems to think every knife needs to be taken apart and cleaned and lubed and polished. Part of the problem is you have people that don't know much about knives taking what he says as fact.

I'm not going to argue about your post. I'll say he's not being overly picky about this. People pay a lot of money for knives nicer than you can buy at autozone. People expect them to be better in every way than knives at autozone. If they're not, the company should hear about the issue. And people shouldn't just shrug their shoulders and buy whatever these companies produce even if something sucks about them. It's not like this is some personal preference. If you had a knife that was so hard to unlock you needed to pry it open with a screwdriver, you wouldn't want someone coming in and telling you it's not a big deal and that you're being nitpicky. You'd want to bring the issue up to the company and have them look into it, which Sal is going to do. I don't have anything else to say. I'm sure Spyderco will come up with something, even if it's that they just stop using these from here on out.
Autozone has nothing on Spyderco. Come on bro.
bearfacedkiller wrote:I agree that bearings in a knife are a solution looking for a problem. I like simple things and simple things work and they work reliably. PB washers have given me some silky smooth knives and have been 100% reliable. To me bearings add cost and complexity and that is about it. I would buy both Mantras and an Advocate if they didn't have bearings or internal stop pins. They would also both be cheaper.
Agreed.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby The Deacon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:36 am

Evil D wrote:People are prone to defend the brand. I'm guilty of that myself. People also have different expectations, and what is unacceptable to one person will seem ridiculous to complain about to the next person.
Very true, on both counts. Still, I take any negative comments about a brand that generally meets or exceeds my own expectations with a grain of salt. And, when religion gets added to the mix as a sign of someones bona fides, that grain of salt instantly increases to a 5 gallon pail's worth.

Don't have a dog in this fight, frankly find the idea of adding flippers, waves, and other "alternative opening devices" to Spyderco knives rather idiotic, but that's just me.
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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby toxophilus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:53 am

sal wrote:We'll look into it.

sal
Hi Sal, if you need a production Advocate example for evaluation/testing please let me know; I'm local and can drop it off.

Thx in advance, RSilva

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby wrdwrght » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:21 pm

The Deacon wrote:
Evil D wrote:People are prone to defend the brand. I'm guilty of that myself. People also have different expectations, and what is unacceptable to one person will seem ridiculous to complain about to the next person.
Very true, on both counts. Still, I take any negative comments about a brand that generally meets or exceeds my own expectations with a grain of salt. And, when religion gets added to the mix as a sign of someones bona fides, that grain of salt instantly increases to a 5 gallon pail's worth.

Don't have a dog in this fight, frankly find the idea of adding flippers, waves, and other "alternative opening devices" to Spyderco knives rather idiotic, but that's just me.
Not just you, Paul. FWIW, each of your points resonates with me.

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Re: Sal, hope to hear from you

Postby Bodog » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:46 pm

David Lowry wrote:[

Autozone has nothing on Spyderco. Come on bro.

I don't say that lightly. I literally held and opened a knife bought at autozone for like $5 that had better opening action than my Mantra did. My Mantra is better now that I removed one of the washers but there's a little bit of blade play. At least the other guy admitted his knife didn't hold an edge for crap.
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