Gayle Bradley Advocate First Impressions?

[Airlsee]

Over a week of carry & play and I'm still loving my Advocate...

Definitely more smooth than day one, and zero issues experienced at this point. Rock solid lock up, flipping action is robust and there are no washer divots or galling felt when slowly opening or closing the blade. The only feedback felt is from the coarseness of the blade grind sliding over the bearing & detent apices.

Just to note, I am one to usually disassemble my knives after a few weeks of ownership, but with this blade have decided against it for fear of causing an issue where there is none (which I believe has probably happened to many of the bearing malfunctions so prevalently vocalized) and in the off chance I end up needing W&R if some CQI ever comes into play.

Really I just wanted to post up some love for the Advocate because this thread has become widely dominated by the worries and complaints of those who don't actually own the knife...

My specimen: So far, fantastic.

[Tim_B_Riding]

I'm having pretty good luck with mine going on a week now. Certainly not the best flipper action in my inventory. I'm optimistic that perhaps a replacement washer will be available either by Spyderco or third-party. Almost everything else about this knife hits my preferences except the action. Again, it's not bad but it's not great either.

edit: My Nirvana on the other hand has beautiful action and I understand it's the same bearings?

[wrdwrght]

So, about the apparent problem... is it the bearing assembly or the backing washer that's failing?

ApostleD spends most of his time remarking on the dishing/pitting of the backing washer, with some additional remarks on the washers' galling of their recesses.

If it's the washer, why would anyone cast doubt on Spyderco's willingness to find suitable replacements, cost-free? When has Spyderco not honored a warranty that a customer has honored?

But some history does need to accumulate before an answer can be found

If it's the intact bearing assembly rather than a washer, then I have to wonder if flipper marketing has set expectations so absurdly high that any ever-so-slight resistence must be taken as a sign that the bearings are failing. But is it really a failure or an unreasonable expectation? I guess I've had low expectations for my many-times-flipped Southard (the original), which I still consider a smooth-opener (but nowhere near as smooth as my original Sage3).

Since isolation of this problem requires Spyderco to open the knife, we who don't think our flippers are smooth enough will have to suffer the separation from our pride and joy. But, hey, if you don't want such complications, avoid knives that declare themselves complicated. Bearing assemblies in cramped spaces are more complicated than PB washers, right?

I will just add here that the tenor of complaint both in the referred vids and in some comments here troubles me.

The sense of entitlement and the questioning of Sal's/Spyderco's historically-reliable ethics in some posts here really is inappropriate. We're guests, for petes sake...

[Bodog]

So, about the apparent problem... is it the bearing assembly or the backing washer that's failing?

ApostleD spends most of his time remarking on the dishing/pitting of the backing washer, with some additional remarks on the washers' galling of their recesses.

If it's the washer, why would anyone cast doubt on Spyderco's willingness to find suitable replacements, cost-free? When has Spyderco not honored a warranty that a customer has honored?

But some history does need to accumulate before an answer can be found

If it's the intact bearing assembly rather than a washer, then I have to wonder if flipper marketing has set expectations so absurdly high that any ever-so-slight resistence must be taken as a sign that the bearings are failing. But is it really a failure or an unreasonable expectation? I guess I've had low expectations for my many-times-flipped Southard (the original), which I still consider a smooth-opener (but nowhere near as smooth as my original Sage3).

Since isolation of this problem requires Spyderco to open the knife, we who don't think our flippers are smooth enough will have to suffer the separation from our pride and joy. But, hey, if you don't want such complications, avoid knives that declare themselves complicated. Bearing assemblies in cramped spaces are more complicated than PB washers, right?

I will just add here that the tenor of complaint both in the referred vids and in some comments here troubles me.

The sense of entitlement and the questioning of Sal's/Spyderco's historically-reliable ethics in some posts here really is inappropriate. We're guests, for petes sake...

Or maybe we want spyderco to be the best because we like their owner so much. Or maybe we are capable of looking at what else is available and saying spyderco needs to step it up or abandon this certain path. Or maybe we like having the best functioning knife and don't give a crap about specific boxes being checked. Or maybe something about this sucked so badly that the buyer felt slightly cheated.

There are a lot of reasons for a lot of people. To call them nitpicky or that their opinion is invalid is to defend less than the best. You, me, and every other knife nut spends our hard earned money on what could be considered frivolity. If we're going to spend our money, we want to know that for the price corners weren't cut. Otherwise we'd just buy crap the same as pretty much anyone else out there.

If we want the best for a given price, we need to demand it. Stepping up to better bearings is hardly a significant cost. Maybe $10 more per knife. If they're going to stick to this path they need to do it right. If they're not going to do it right they need to stick to what they CAN do right.

I'm for one tired of hearing about Spyderco's bearings being less than great stretching back until they first started using them. The problem is obvious. They need to fix it. I'm honestly surprised it's been so long since it's been honestly addressed. Maybe it's because back to back they introduced models that Should have and Could have been big hits but no one wanted to tell spyderco something was really off so they simply sold them and refused to talk about it.

Personally, on this forum, I've not seen anyone sharing their experience in a willfully negative way. They are saying it simply to give their side, good, bad, or ugly, and letting the folks at Spyderco do what they will with it. Although I've seen some people trying to negate those less than great experiences in a less than positive manner.

[zeroed4x]

So, about the apparent problem... is it the bearing assembly or the backing washer that's failing?

ApostleD spends most of his time remarking on the dishing/pitting of the backing washer, with some additional remarks on the washers' galling of their recesses.

If it's the washer, why would anyone cast doubt on Spyderco's willingness to find suitable replacements, cost-free? When has Spyderco not honored a warranty that a customer has honored?

But some history does need to accumulate before an answer can be found

If it's the intact bearing assembly rather than a washer, then I have to wonder if flipper marketing has set expectations so absurdly high that any ever-so-slight resistence must be taken as a sign that the bearings are failing. But is it really a failure or an unreasonable expectation? I guess I've had low expectations for my many-times-flipped Southard (the original), which I still consider a smooth-opener (but nowhere near as smooth as my original Sage3).

Since isolation of this problem requires Spyderco to open the knife, we who don't think our flippers are smooth enough will have to suffer the separation from our pride and joy. But, hey, if you don't want such complications, avoid knives that declare themselves complicated. Bearing assemblies in cramped spaces are more complicated than PB washers, right?

I will just add here that the tenor of complaint both in the referred vids and in some comments here troubles me.

The sense of entitlement and the questioning of Sal's/Spyderco's historically-reliable ethics in some posts here really is inappropriate. We're guests, for petes sake...

Or maybe we want spyderco to be the best because we like their owner so much. Or maybe we are capable of looking at what else is available and saying spyderco needs to step it up or abandon this certain path. Or maybe we like having the best functioning knife and don't give a crap about specific boxes being checked. Or maybe something about this sucked so badly that the buyer felt slightly cheated.

There are a lot of reasons for a lot of people. To call them nitpicky or that their opinion is invalid is to defend less than the best. You, me, and every other knife nut spends our hard earned money on what could be considered frivolity. If we're going to spend our money, we want to know that for the price corners weren't cut. Otherwise we'd just buy crap the same as pretty much anyone else out there.

If we want the best for a given price, we need to demand it. Stepping up to better bearings is hardly a significant cost. Maybe $10 more per knife. If they're going to stick to this path they need to do it right. If they're not going to do it right they need to stick to what they CAN do right.

I'm for one tired of hearing about Spyderco's bearings being less than great stretching back until they first started using them. The problem is obvious. They need to fix it. I'm honestly surprised it's been so long since it's been honestly addressed. Maybe it's because back to back they introduced models that Should have and Could have been big hits but no one wanted to tell spyderco something was really off so they simply sold them and refused to talk about it.

Bodog, you're 100% on point. It sounds to me that wrdwrght might just be talking out of his Spydie Hole.
When we the consumer spend our hard earned disposable income on things that make us happy, it damned sure better make us happy and the company responsible for making us happy better see to it.
Collectively "we the customers" have the equal right to praise, complain or make suggestions.
I'm sure that Sal in on this and there will be a positive favorable outcome for everyone.

wrdwrght states << "The sense of entitlement and the questioning of Sal's/Spyderco's historically-reliable ethics in some posts here really is inappropriate. We're guests, for petes sake">>
We are all guests, we expect to be treated as such.
Let me make myself perfectly clear. When I spend the amount of money that I have historically spent throughout the 80's, 90's and 2000's you can bet your @$$ that I will comment and question anything and everything. No ones approval or acceptance of this undeniable fact is requested or required.

[MacLaren]

So, about the apparent problem... is it the bearing assembly or the backing washer that's failing?

ApostleD spends most of his time remarking on the dishing/pitting of the backing washer, with some additional remarks on the washers' galling of their recesses.

If it's the washer, why would anyone cast doubt on Spyderco's willingness to find suitable replacements, cost-free? When has Spyderco not honored a warranty that a customer has honored?

But some history does need to accumulate before an answer can be found

If it's the intact bearing assembly rather than a washer, then I have to wonder if flipper marketing has set expectations so absurdly high that any ever-so-slight resistence must be taken as a sign that the bearings are failing. But is it really a failure or an unreasonable expectation? I guess I've had low expectations for my many-times-flipped Southard (the original), which I still consider a smooth-opener (but nowhere near as smooth as my original Sage3).

Since isolation of this problem requires Spyderco to open the knife, we who don't think our flippers are smooth enough will have to suffer the separation from our pride and joy. But, hey, if you don't want such complications, avoid knives that declare themselves complicated. Bearing assemblies in cramped spaces are more complicated than PB washers, right?

I will just add here that the tenor of complaint both in the referred vids and in some comments here troubles me.

The sense of entitlement and the questioning of Sal's/Spyderco's historically-reliable ethics in some posts here really is inappropriate. We're guests, for petes sake...

Sense of entitlement? No sale.
Entitlement does not imply when one spends money on something. Never has.
This makes me think of a discussion on Mad Dog Sports about NBA players just not playing in certain arenas to take a day off. Fans were upset about it. Someone mentioned they need to be quiet and get over their sense of entitlement. Wrong. When one pays good money for something; anything, then entitlement just does not figure into it imo.

[zeroed4x]

Sense of entitlement? No sale.
Entitlement does not imply when one spends money on something. Never has.
This makes me think of a discussion on Mad Dog Sports about NBA players just not playing in certain arenas to take a day off. Fans were upset about it. Someone mentioned they need to be quiet and get over their sense of entitlement. Wrong. When one pays good money for something; anything, then entitlement just does not figure into it imo.

Let me get this straight, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that when someone pays for a product that they have no entitlement, no privileged and no rights to be granted or guaranteed under any circumstances such as warranty, guarantee or otherwise ???

[Airlsee]

He's agreeing with you.

[MacLaren]

He's agreeing with you.

Lol, Thank You

[fr8nks]

I've only had my Advocate for a few days and flipped it maybe a 100 times. It hasn't developed any of the problems discussed so far. However the centering was not perfect and I decided to perform preventive maintenance on it. I took it apart and bent the frame lock by about .005 of an inch to lessen the tension on the detent. I assembled the knife and tightened the pivot until the centering was perfect. The knife is buttery smooth now whether using the flipper, Spydie hole or middle finger flip. The knife still locks up tighter than a drum but is much easier on the thumb when closing. I own about 350 knives and used this technique on about 8 of them and have never had a problem. Five of the 8 knives were Spydercos. By the way, many of you are afraid to take your knife apart for fear of voiding the warranty. How will anyone know?

[Airlsee]

Alright, so I've got to add that since using my Advocate for a couple weeks, my lanyard tube has become a rattling mess. I have to add that I can't stand the tube from an aesthetic or functional stand point either. So it's pretty ridiculous but even after deciding to leave this piece together, upon arrival, I'm going to have to disassemble it just to get rid of the "flea market knife" rattle and to make it more appealing from an aesthetic stand point.

The lanyard tube is a completely useless after thought that adds clutter, complexity, weight and annoyance on this blade that doesn't appear on a custom Gayle Bradley. The holes are far enough removed from the blade that the lanyard tube is literally just an added meaningless after-thought and this is extremely disappointing especially on a $220 blade with a "no disassembly" warranty policy.

Spyderco please step up to the plate, I have given the benefit of doubt all throughout but now I'm forced to decide between having a rattling, cluttered, misinterpretation of a design or a voiding of my warranty. This is not an acceptable decision to place upon your loyal customers laying down hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year towards your livelihood.

[sal]

We've been working on the issues since they emerged. Being a thin flipper, it's complicated and requires study. Eric and I have been discussing this every day.

sal

[Sharp Guy]

Alright, so I've got to add that since using my Advocate for a couple weeks, my lanyard tube has become a rattling mess. I have to add that I can't stand the tube from an aesthetic or functional stand point either. So it's pretty ridiculous but even after deciding to leave this piece together, upon arrival, I'm going to have to disassemble it just to get rid of the "flea market knife" rattle and to make it more appealing from an aesthetic stand point.

The lanyard tube is a completely useless after thought that adds clutter, complexity, weight and annoyance on this blade that doesn't appear on a custom Gayle Bradley. The holes are far enough removed from the blade that the lanyard tube is literally just an added meaningless after-thought and this is extremely disappointing especially on a $220 blade with a "no disassembly" warranty policy.

Spyderco please step up to the plate, I have given the benefit of doubt all throughout but now I'm forced to decide between having a rattling, cluttered, misinterpretation of a design or a voiding of my warranty. This is not an acceptable decision to place upon your loyal customers laying down hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year towards your livelihood.

Or you can just send it in to Spyderco W&R and have them fix the rattling lanyard tube. I know it's a pain and will even cost a few bucks but it is what it is. As much we'd like things to be perfect it doesn't always work out that way. I know what it's like to be disappointed when a new knife needs repair and I understand where you're coming from. I'm fairly mechanically inclined and can fix a lot of things, I recently had some issues with a couple of knives and I decided, since the knives are basically new, why not give Spyderco's W&R department the opportunity to do their thing. You know what They took good care of me and it all worked out great!

[Airlsee]

We've been working on the issues since they emerged. Being a thin flipper, it's complicated and requires study. Eric and I have been discussing this every day.

sal

Thank you for your response Sal, I'm glad the Advocate is a design under current review, because I believe that it is a phenomenal design and just needs some quirks in execution worked out.

I do believe that I'll be opening up my specimen just to remove the lanyard tube, and will be extra cautious in making sure not to over tighten the pivot upon reassembly, so as not to dent the ultra thin washers.

[Airlsee]

We've been working on the issues since they emerged. Being a thin flipper, it's complicated and requires study. Eric and I have been discussing this every day.

sal

Thank you for your response Sal, I'm glad the Advocate is a design under current review, because I believe that it is a phenomenal design and just needs some quirks in execution worked out.

I do believe that I'll be opening up my specimen just to remove the lanyard tube, and will be extra cautious in making sure not to over tighten the pivot upon reassembly, so as not to dent the ultra thin washers.

Edit: All's well, biggest issue in disassembly was the red loctite. Used a hair dryer to heat the knife and had no real problems but there was a lot of red loctite...

Removed the lanyard tube, cleaned pivot area & lightly lubed the bearing cages. Reassembly was a cinch, firm pivot without over tightening, used blue threadlocker...all in all I'm very happy and feel that the lanyard tube although not a huge deal was just extra clutter that seems to develop a rattle rather soon.

I am of the opinion that the fewer parts and the tighter the tolerances the better. I love Spyderco but I also love my CRK's...keep it tight, keep it simple. I love this overall design and hope it gets past these growing pains to become a true Spydie Classic.

[murphjd25]

My spydiechef has a rattle in the lanyard tube but I don't shake it hard enough for it to bother me when using it as intended.

[Bodog]

We've been working on the issues since they emerged. Being a thin flipper, it's complicated and requires study. Eric and I have been discussing this every day.

sal

This is one of the reasons people like spyderco so much...

[fanglekai]

Admitting there's a problem and working to fix it is all anyone can ask. Many companies refuse to admit that a problem exists and take no action. No one puts out perfect knives every time. Not even brands that cost $500. It'll be interesting to see what the fix is.

[SpeedHoles]

My spydiechef has a rattle in the lanyard tube but I don't shake it hard enough for it to bother me when using it as intended.

Just put a tapered punch into the lanyard tube and give it a couple hits from each side. Eliminated any rattle I had, without disassembly.

[Bodog]

Admitting there's a problem and working to fix it is all anyone can ask. Many companies refuse to admit that a problem exists and take no action. No one puts out perfect knives every time. Not even brands that cost $500. It'll be interesting to see what the fix is.

^^^This^^^^