Steel types vs sharpening difficulty

[ryguy76]

Preface: I'm not expecting my question to be easily answered as I think there's likely many factors at play, but here goes.

I keep reading/seeing all these new fancy steels that are enticing but I worry about getting a new knife with a steel that's too "advanced" for me in terms of being able to maintain it asI am still relatively new to knives and still developing my sharpening technique.

That said, I have knives in 8CR13MOV, BD1, VG-10, XHP, S30V & HAP40. After a figuring out how to get decent results with my SharpMaker, I have no problem maintaining a decent edge on any of them, but am sure they could all be better. I just have the stock medium and fine stones and can easily maintain an edge that slice cuts through printer paper like butter, and can shave hair on my arm. As far as "hair popping" sharpness, I don't think I'm there. I can't produce an edge that can cut hair without coming in contact with my skin like a razor would. For my uses though, I am satisfied with this level of sharp.

So my 64k question is... Are there definitely certain steels I should steer clear of assuming I'm not planning on upgrading my sharpening system (barring adding a coarse CBN rod set and jewellers loupe - which are on my Xmas list), to avoid a certain degree of frustration in attempting to keep the edge at a somewhat comparable degree of sharpness as I described?

I'd be interested in knowing which specific steels breach that threshold of becoming "difficult" steels to maintain and which steels would still be classified as "intermediate" steels if such a category existed. Ex: S30V vs S110V. Would they both in the intermediate category or would the S110V be significantly harder to maintain and therefore beyond the imaginary threshold I'm talking about?

Thanks.

[hoimin]

The only difficulty is added time. M4 (sort of), M390/204p/20CV, S90v, S110v.

[Sharp Guy]

I haven't had any problems putting a 20°microbevel on ZDP-189, M4, or S110V. I haven't had to reprofile anything at this point but I would think the diamond or CBN rods should handle the job ok. It might not be as easy to do on a Sharpmaker compared to a fixed-angle system but I'm hopeful the SM can handle it when the time comes.

[Ryno]

I haven't had any problems putting a 20°microbevel on ZDP-189, M4, or S110V. I haven't had to reprofile anything at this point but I would think the diamond or CBN rods should handle the job ok. It might not be as easy to do on a Sharpmaker compared to a fixed-angle system but I'm hopeful the SM can handle it when the time comes.

I've reprofiled Super Blue on a sharpmaker and it took me a long time. I can't imagine doing that to a more abrasion resistant steel like S110V or ZDP. I bought an edge pro with an add on diamond stone after working at that Super Blue for what seemed like ever.

[farnorthdan]

It is definitely harder to re-profile say S110V with just the stock stones that come with the SM but adding a set of diamonds makes it doable, takes a bit but it can be done.

[Zenith]

I have seen people have a hard time re-profiling 12C27 at 61HRC never mind an even more wear resistant steel at that hardness.

My advice is to spend some money and buy a good low grit diamond stone for re-profiling. You can easily do a XXC diamond grit (from DMT) when re-profiling and then ad a 20 degree microbevel with the sharpmaker.

[Brock O Lee]

... takes a bit but it can be done.

That balance point between speed and effort and cost is different for everyone. You can sell you car and choose to commute 50km daily on a bicycle for a year and save a fortune on car payments, fuel etc. It can be done, but do you want to? :)

I agree with Marthinus, get a coarse diamond bench stone for the grunt work, and use the SM for micro bevels. SM diamonds are nice, but too fine for bulk steel removal.

[Bloke]

I think another problem with reprofiling using a SM is that the time it takes (even with diamonds) tends to frustrate most and consequently technique tends to suffer. :eek:

I think you'll likely get the best results using some sort of guided system sharpener like the Edge Pro. A set of SiC or Diamond hones will even out the playing field and you'll be able to sharpen any alloy you like to what ever level of sharpness takes your fancy.

The SM will maintain your edges to perfection between sharpening, particularly if you utilise a micro bevel. :cool:

Don't over think it! :)

[Igi964]

There is no steel that can't be sharpen on Sharpmaker. Ceramic is way to hard for any steel. High carbide steels are more wear resistent, they just need more time and steady hand. I am able to keep my S110V sharp with no problems. If you want to have even finer edge, ultra fine stones are for you. If you want to reprofile or sharpen a very dull knives you should buy diamond rods or CBN rods.

[Surfingringo]

Are some steels more difficult to sharpen? Mmm, depends on what you mean by that question. As far as reprofiling and achieving a clean apex that will shave arm hair and cut paper, nah you shouldn't have any big problem with any spyderco steel (assuming you have the proper tools for sharpening). On the other hand, if you are looking to achieve and maintain very high levels of sharpness then yes, you are going to start to really note the subtle differences in how the high carbide steels respond to the stones. S110v and s90v (when micro beveling at 40 degrees) are a little harder than other steels to get to the same level of sticky sharp at any given grit. If you aren't obsessed with sharpness and don't plan to do touchups several times a week then those steels (s110v/s90v, etc) are great options. If you are going to sharpen often and keep your knives in the upper range of attainable sharpness then there are better options available.

[anagarika]

A lot of learning from this thread. It also depends on how refined you want the result, especially with high vanadium steel.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ant-steels

[rybu0305]

110v is the hardest steel I have and it takes A LOT of patience to get really sharp. I cannot get it nearly as sharp as my other knives on the SM. That being said I have found that particular steel to be a different kind of sharp. Even though I can't get it hair popping it stays sharp enough for most tasks forever, it seems. Good questions. If your aren't going to get courser rods I would stay away from steels like s90v and 110v because you might just get frustrated.

[JD Spydo]

When I get any of my supersteel blades ready for a thorough sharpening I always do the worst of it with one of my diamond benchstones. After that either the 204 Sharpmaker or one of my Spyderco 302 Benchstones have hardly no problem doing the rest of the job. But if you've got a really banged up/dinged up blade then by all means do the difficult reprofiling of the primary apex with a diamond stone>> it will sure be a big time saver.

I've preached this I don't know how many times but it bears repeating>>> if you're going to use a Spyderco 204 Sharpmaker you absolutely MUST get the extra stones that you can buy for it>> especially the diamond rods and the Ultra-fine stones. I've yet to test drive the CBN stones but they are on my list to get. When you need rapid stock removal on a damaged blade then diamond is truly the only way to go with the first two stages of reprofiling and sharpening.

[ryguy76]

Yes, I will likely be receiving CBN stones for the SM on Xmas day. They're one of the few items I placed on my list this year. So I'll likely gain some re-profiling experience with the steels I currently have and hopefully start taking note of how long each steel I own takes to remove enough steel to end up with a new profile. From there, I guess I'll decide if sticking with the SM and going to an even harder steel is for me. Thanks for the responses, fellas.

[Blerv]

If you have modern synthetic stones (ie not quarried) even the most wear resistant steels sharpen fairly easily. Spyderco browns cut pretty quick and diamond/CBN rods cut very quickly.

Primary bevel grinding however is much more arduous with high-wear steels. Resetting/repairing the secondary bevel isn't "easy" either. So if you gouge a chunk out of a 110v blade it's not going to be a breeze to repair like say AUS8 or VG10.

Also, depending on edge angle there is a hot debate with low-carbide vs high-carbide steels. Lower carbide (low carbon SS or simple tool steels like 1095) generally can take much more acute angles without chipping. To further complicate that debate it's also dependant on how thin an edge someone is using. It appears for folders unless you are going near-flat razor edge angles most those problems can be solved with a microbevel.

[Matt Deaner]

I really like inexpensive silicon carbide stones for reprofiling work, then I finish on a sharpmaker. Steel type doesn't matter a whole lot when you use SIC in this way... it cuts fairly quickly no matter what. So do diamonds for that matter, but I have had poor diamond stone life because I tend to press too hard when reprofiling... it can tear out the diamonds prematurely.

[ejames13]

I think another problem with reprofiling using a SM is that the time it takes (even with diamonds) tends to frustrate most and consequently technique tends to suffer. :eek:

This is definitely true for me. I've tried to take some of my knives from the factory angle down to 30 inclusive in one sitting (using the diamond rods), and in the end I felt like I cut a few corners just to get it over with.

However, I recently reprofiled my Gayle Bradley to 30 inclusive and did one side, went to bed, then did the other side the next day. When I was finished it was the highest level of sharpness I've ever achieved!

So morals of the story are: 1). It's going to take a long time to do stock removal on high wear-resistant steels, and 2). Be patient and take breaks!

P. S. I can't even imagine trying to remove stock with the brown SM rods! :eek:

[Evil D]

My experience is that these "higher end" steels simply require more time than other steels and some are far less forgiving of poor technique.

[ryguy76]

At this point, I'm not necessarily after a specific steel, but am drawn to specific knifes and steel options are what they are. I don't use knifes for tough tasks so I'm actually ok with the various steels I already have and don't desire a harder steel. S30V is working well for me as far as the ability to get sharp with my sharpening skills and retain it's edge. I like VG-10 too, so knives with steels in this ballpark are fine by me and likely always will be, but some of my most coveted knives are offered in much harder steels. I like to think I have a decent amount of patience for the sharpening aspect so once I get some re-profiling experience under my belt, I'll test my so-called sharpening patience and let that guide my next step for knife purchase. :)

[Evil D]

I went from no name "stainless steel" knives to VG10 and then straight into ZDP-189 and I had no idea what I was getting into. I have a special place in my heart for that steel because it forced me to start from scratch with everything I thought I knew about sharpening and it seemed to be a defining moment/steel for me. If you can remove chips/burrs from ZDP and get it sharp then you can sharpen practically anything.