Red loctite

[RLDubbya]

Devil's Advocate: I have the Para 3. The included instructions tell me that I can change the location of the clip, and tell me how. No mention made of the pivot. Why should I, an unskilled never-held-a-screwdriver-with-the-funny-bits type guy feel like I'm entitled to make undocumented changes to the knife? Let's pretend for a minute or three.

-----Pretend Scenario---------------
I join the forum, and read that I can improve my new Para 3 by playing with the two bigger screws. I'm not really unhappy with the knife, but a guy named SpydercoExpert says I'll be a lot happier with the performance if I tweak these. He said not to worry about the warranty statement of anything, that nobody will ever know I did this.

I tweaked them, I guess it made a difference. Anyhow, I was trimming up carpet during an installation, and the whole blessed knife just fell apart as I was doing a pull cut towards me. Before I knew what happened, the blade was embedded in my thigh (I was kneeling on the carpet to hold it in place at the time), and nicked my femoral artery. Thankfully, the guys who were with me applied a torniquet, and I'll be ok in a week, but my lawyer says I can't sue some guy called SpydercoExpert that I ran into on the forum.

He has advised me to sue Spyderco. Have any of you guys had this happen to you?

Thanks,

I.M. Amorono

----------End

In our society, in which patients often look for lawyers before they look for doctors, the above scenario is not that far-fetched. Or a variant of it, in which the guy's hospital bills are through the roof, and paid for by his insurance. However, his insurance sues Spyderco for reimbursement.

Not good. Part of business today.

[Evil D]

Well hopefully "SpydercoExpert" would not tell anyone that nobody would ever know they fiddled with their knife. Most everyone on this forum who gives advice is also quick to make it clear if it effects warranty. Honestly if you can't handle a torx screwdriver you probably shouldn't be handling things with sharp edges.

[bearfacedkiller]

Honestly if you can't handle a torx screwdriver you probably shouldn't be handling things with sharp edges.

Yup.

[Bodog]

Devil's Advocate: I have the Para 3. The included instructions tell me that I can change the location of the clip, and tell me how. No mention made of the pivot. Why should I, an unskilled never-held-a-screwdriver-with-the-funny-bits type guy feel like I'm entitled to make undocumented changes to the knife? Let's pretend for a minute or three.

-----Pretend Scenario---------------
I join the forum, and read that I can improve my new Para 3 by playing with the two bigger screws. I'm not really unhappy with the knife, but a guy named SpydercoExpert says I'll be a lot happier with the performance if I tweak these. He said not to worry about the warranty statement of anything, that nobody will ever know I did this.

I tweaked them, I guess it made a difference. Anyhow, I was trimming up carpet during an installation, and the whole blessed knife just fell apart as I was doing a pull cut towards me. Before I knew what happened, the blade was embedded in my thigh (I was kneeling on the carpet to hold it in place at the time), and nicked my femoral artery. Thankfully, the guys who were with me applied a torniquet, and I'll be ok in a week, but my lawyer says I can't sue some guy called SpydercoExpert that I ran into on the forum.

He has advised me to sue Spyderco. Have any of you guys had this happen to you?

Thanks,

I.M. Amorono

----------End

In our society, in which patients often look for lawyers before they look for doctors, the above scenario is not that far-fetched. Or a variant of it, in which the guy's hospital bills are through the roof, and paid for by his insurance. However, his insurance sues Spyderco for reimbursement.

Not good. Part of business today.

No offense but that's a terrible reason. Not even remotely realistic. I can take apart a car and put it back together incorrectly. If it blows up there's no one I can sue for anything.

I can take a gun apart and if I put it back together incorrectly and it blows up I can't successfully sue anyone.

There's literally no way whatsoever someone could loosen some screws on a knife and then use the knife and it magically blows up and imbeds a blade into someone's leg. And if that somehow happens there's absolutely no way whatsoever there could be a lawsuit about that than saying someone cut their finger completely off while cutting some carrots. None. Zero. Anyone can sue anyone else for anything, sure, but come on.

[Evil D]

I'm starting to miss the pinned construction days. So much less drama back then.

[bearfacedkiller]

That scenario is whack. Dumbing things down for the lowest common denominator is not progress. When you idiot proof things you just make better idiots. It's evolution but it is not progress.

[JenWrath]

Going to be a bit of a rant, skip to the bottom if you want.

I don't mind some thread locker on a pivot or screw - I assume with a higher end product that there's a range of tolerance in assembly. So using a thread locker in theory would prevent the product from falling out of that tolerance. Most of us buy our knives to use them everyday at our jobs. I do ordering, shipping, receiving and stocking at one of the largest retailers in the country. My knife is always closing and opening, working with any kind of material you could find at a store - from garden supplies to tape, soil, zip-ties and of course cardboard.

While I'm not purposely hard on my knives, I don't shy away from using a $500+ knife to - carefully - cut open zip ties on a box. They're always functional first. After a few days or even a week in the thick of it, my knives need some touching up. Almost always tape and random residue will build up in the knife. Sure, it takes a while to get into the pivot, but having a knife operate as close to 100% as possible makes my job easier. Also, if a knife doesn't close properly, it becomes a potential safety hazard(granted, one that I brought into my job and would be completely my fault).

I've been putting off taking apart my Spydercos for as long as possible, until I finally wasn't using them in my rotation because I didn't feel the tools I had were up to breaking through the thread locker. Finally took apart my GB1 and even though there no issues, the whole time I was worried about stripping a screw and ruining the gift my girlfriend worked extra shifts to get me for Christmas. When I can set aside the time, the PM2 and 3 will be next. It seems the Golden ones are the hardest to maintenance, so putting aside time to do this hasn't been high up on my list. It's a shame that such great tools instill such a "sigh, maybe I'll use this other one instead" when you think of having to do routine maintenance on the tool.

I don't recall seeing any labeling on the Spyderco boxes that a strong loctite material is used to hold screws/bits in place. Other than researching online, I would've had no way of knowing what process would be needed to tear down my $100+ knives and likely would've broken them - not ideal. I don't care about the warranty, I get why it's there but I have no intention of ever making a claim on something I break myself. I wasn't brought up to do things that way and have no plans on changing. I would only use it if the product was not as advertised when it first comes out of the package.

A heads up on the threadlocker and how to loosen it if the customer needs to smooth out action(my GB1 had become very hard to open and getting progressively worse) or do rust prevention on internal parts would be appreciated.


Sal, Eric, random Spyderco employee - we buy your products usually to use them. We love your products. We dislike this assembly choice because it directly impacts our preferred way of maintaining the products you sell. If you guys could eventually meet us halfway or even a step towards a middle ground on this taking apart business, it would be much appreciated.

[sal]

To the many new members; Welcome to our forum.

Interesting thread. Lots of points of view. Some more intelligent and knowledgeable than others for sure. fYI, We've tried numerous solutions from all of the locktights, glues, Nyloks, as well as some of our own creation. Keep in mind that many of the knives that we receive in customer service were taken apart by amateurs that expect us to take the time to fix their fubars. And yes, we can tell when they've been tampered with. We're still trying to find the ideal solutions. Obviously to many of you, we haven't. But to many thousands that buy or products, we have.

I'll bring this up with Eric and mfg for discussion.

As to timing, I didn't turn on my computer from the time I left for SHOT (14th) until I got home (22nd). And I'm the guy that gets to read your multiple page complaints. :) I also have to follow up from SHOT and run a business, so cut me some slack.

I believe that we get far more right than "maybe not perfect".

sal

[Fred Sanford]

I have never had any issues with Spyderco's use of fasteners or thread locks. I have never had to heat anything to get it apart. I've owned more than 100 Spyderco knives between 2005 and now. I still have many of them. I see a lot of new faces around here and a lot of complaints that would have been moot in the past. I'm a fan of Nick Shabazz, but not a fan of how he promotes continually disassembling knives to clean and maintain them. Same goes for ApostleP. I prefer to just wash a knife in the hottest water you can handle with some dish soap, dry with a towel and compressed air and then oil it up. It is not necessary to disassemble the knife to clean it all the time. Even if you have a non-Salt version of a Spyderco in salt water, it does not need to be disassembled to be cleaned (unless it was left to sit and is rusty as heck).

I've noticed a lot in the last 3 or 4 years that folks that are new to knives and/or just getting into them seem to take a lot of what they see on YouTube for the truth. I suggest to these folks that they take some time and do some research as well as some reading before just blindly following what some dude on the Internet says. Do your own testing and research as well. I love watching knife vids on YouTube just as much as anyone here, but I also take what the vid creator says with a grain of salt.

I appreciate that Sal jumps in and talks with us and gives us his opinion as well. That is rare these days and almost unheard of in a lot of companies.

I'm starting to miss the pinned construction days. So much less drama back then.

Agree 100%. Some of the stuff people are posting as of late is straight wack.

[NickShabazz]

...We're still trying to find the ideal solutions. Obviously to many of you, we haven't. But to many thousands that buy or products, we have.

I'll bring this up with Eric and mfg for discussion...

Thanks, Sal, for the considered response and your ongoing pursuit of constant improvement.

I prefer to just wash a knife in the hottest water you can handle with some dish soap, dry with a towel and compressed air and then oil it up.

Good point, that's definitely also a solid approach. Doesn't mesh well with my deep feeling that if you can't rebuild and maintain it, you don't own it, but that's my psychosis. I should probably film a video highlighting that your method works too, particularly when dealing with loctite or silly screws. Mind if I credit your post as inspiration?

[MattM68]

I really don't know where I stand on this issue. I have some knives that I've never had to disassemble, but some I've had to. My Sage 5 had some pretty serious centering issues, and the action was extremely stiff. I was able to fix it myself, but only after I took it apart. Sending it in is also an option, but there's no guarantee it will be fixed, at least in my experience with two of my knives.

I would be totally fine with a pinned knife as long as everything was perfect. Good centering, smooth, free action, etc. But people also have different preferences when it comes to things like that, so it's nice to have adjustability in the pivot. I don't take my knives apart because it's fun to do, I take them apart because I feel that it'll be beneficial to the action of the knife, which will make me enjoy my knife more. To me it isn't worth sending in the knife and being without it for a month.

I wish there was a better solution that would make more people happy. Blue loctite has always been perfect for me, but obviously some people must have run into problems with it. I'd even be fine with a warning in the box telling me there's red loctite in the knife.

Matt

[Zatx]

To the many new members; Welcome to our forum.

Interesting thread. Lots of points of view. Some more intelligent and knowledgeable than others for sure. fYI, We've tried numerous solutions from all of the locktights, glues, Nyloks, as well as some of our own creation. Keep in mind that many of the knives that we receive in customer service were taken apart by amateurs that expect us to take the time to fix their fubars. And yes, we can tell when they've been tampered with. We're still trying to find the ideal solutions. Obviously to many of you, we haven't. But to many thousands that buy or products, we have.

I'll bring this up with Eric and mfg for discussion.

As to timing, I didn't turn on my computer from the time I left for SHOT (14th) until I got home (22nd). And I'm the guy that gets to read your multiple page complaints. :) I also have to follow up from SHOT and run a business, so cut me some slack.

I believe that we get far more right than "maybe not perfect".

sal

You Sir, have earned slack from me, but then again I'm not the kind of guy that gets up in arms and needs a response NOW NOW NOW! ]

I'm like several in this thread and have owned Spyderco knives for 15+ years, but unlike some, I have noticed a change. I'm skilled and experienced at knife maintenance, but have recently boogered-up the heads on new PM2 pivots and frame screws. Same tools, same techniques as used just fine in the past.

I'm also a guy that owns up to his own mistakes. When I called Warranty & Repair I didn't try to concoct some elaborate story about it being Spyderco's fault. I even offered to pay for the replacement screws and postage. (You guys rock and sent them for free)

Have you found that gluing the screws in place has led to less warranty claims? I would guess (admittedly guessing and acknowledging my ignorance) that those of us that want to take our knives apart are still going to do so and those that are less scrupulous are still going to send them in and try to get you to repair mistakes that are made (though I can honestly I've never damaged a knife once it's disassembled)?

Secondly, if you're going to glue them in place can you provide a dealer(s) with replacement screws that they can sell to us? I've spent most of this week (and a fair amount of money) trying to find a source for PM2 pivot and frame screws. I think I may have found who you use as a supplier but it will be a few more days until my samples get here. Unfortunately, the minimum order is for 100 (though they do sell them by the ton as well).

Thanks for responding, Sal.

[PaleMoon]

To the many new members; Welcome to our forum.

Interesting thread. Lots of points of view. Some more intelligent and knowledgeable than others for sure. fYI, We've tried numerous solutions from all of the locktights, glues, Nyloks, as well as some of our own creation. Keep in mind that many of the knives that we receive in customer service were taken apart by amateurs that expect us to take the time to fix their fubars. And yes, we can tell when they've been tampered with. We're still trying to find the ideal solutions. Obviously to many of you, we haven't. But to many thousands that buy or products, we have.

I'll bring this up with Eric and mfg for discussion.

As to timing, I didn't turn on my computer from the time I left for SHOT (14th) until I got home (22nd). And I'm the guy that gets to read your multiple page complaints. :) I also have to follow up from SHOT and run a business, so cut me some slack.

I believe that we get far more right than "maybe not perfect".

sal

I think this is really something people, myself included, need to think long and hard about. Almost anywhere you go, be it forums, youtube or gatherings, if you ask anyone for a list of the "best" knife brands out there, it's almost impossible not to hear Spyderco's name mentioned. When I first got into modern folders, I remember Kershaw, Benchmade, Spyderco, CRKT, etc., were all considered pretty much on equal footing. As the industry evolved, I think most will agree in regards to who kept moving forward and who was left in the dust.

When I look at how much Spyderco has expanded in the last decade, I'm quite simply in disbelief. Almost anyone who has ever run a business will tell you that, at some point, you will inevitably be faced with the tough decision of expanding and compromising on quality, or staying small and focused. How Spyderco has managed to both grow and increase quality, all the while maintaining a very direct line of communication with its customer base, is just unreal. Their CQI is no joke.

Trust me, if your biggest issue with a manufacturer is the type of thread locker they use, you are in very, very good hands. As David Lowry mentioned, disassembly is not a necessity for most of us. Unless you work knee-deep in salt, mud or sand, how often do you really get to the point where nothing but a full strip will fix your issue? And if you do have that kind of lifestyle, shouldn't you consider maybe using a fixed blade instead? And if you still somehow get to the point where your folder is completely unusable, either send the knife back to warranty or buy a soldering iron and learn to use it.

I don't mean to come off as too abrasive, but I feel this issue is a bit ridiculous. Feedback is good for all businesses. Still, you shouldn't forget the reality that every decision is a compromise. You can't please everybody, and if after 40 years of making knives Spyderco decides that red loctite is the way to go, I'm sure there's a very good reason behind that choice.

[Ippon]

Honestly if you can't handle a torx screwdriver you probably shouldn't be handling things with sharp edges.

Or be messing with flooring instillation for that matter. That same guy tearing up the carpet with an expensive spyderco instead of the cheap replaceable razor blades that are designed to cut carpet, will probably end up with a tack strip in his forehead as well. Not the knife's fault, not spyderco's fault, not the forums fault. :p

Sal,

If the type of thread locker is what people are complaining about most in your company, you are doing a pretty good job of delivering a product people like. And on top of that, you and your company are taking measures to try and fix it, and communicate directly to us your fans on the issue? Increadable. I'm satisfied. Annoyed by the red loctite? yes, I am a little bit. But I am very happy with the response that we have received.

[Evil D]

I'm starting to miss the pinned construction days. So much less drama back then.

Agree 100%. Some of the stuff people are posting as of late is straight wack.

It isn't even that people are wrong, I completely agree it's a horrible idea, but there's a difference between the squeaky wheel getting greased and people making asses of themselves with blatant demands when everyone should be well aware that Spyderco have been at Shot show and probably haven't had the time to cater to our every whim on this forum.

[Michael Janich]

FWIW, TazKristi and I took not of this thread a while back and brought it up for discussion with Spyderco's Management Team. We asked for guidance to post a response, but Sal said that he would rather do that personally. I have tremendous respect for that, and for him.

When I worked for a different knife company, they decided to stop honoring their lifetime warranty policy. I vehemently disagreed with that (as did our customers), so I scrounged as many parts as I could from the factory and personally assumed the role of warranty repair. That experience taught me that well-meaning, otherwise mechanically competent people frequently don't understand how knives function and make mistakes when they disassemble and reassemble knives themselves. Those mistakes can affect the proper functioning and lock-up of a knife. During my tenure as warranty guy, I got everything from Zip-Loc bags filled with loose parts to non-functioning knives that looked like they were put together by Stevie Wonder while he was wearing boxing gloves.

The tough part about the warranty, disassembly, and after-market parts issue is that there is no I.Q. test before the Torx wrenches come out.

Trust me, there's a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes here. Spyderco does not take this issue lightly, but like anything really important, smart decisions take time.

Stay safe,

Mike

[The CoPilot]

I've been watching this thread from the sidelines and as a primary user of vintage Spydercos, didn't have much of an opinion one way or another about red Loctite since I'm not a knife tweaker. But I will make one observation based on experience and that is that I have never seen another company as committed to genuine customer service, feedback, information sharing and constructive improvement as Spyderco. How many places are there where you have a forum like this one where the founder of the company interacts with end-line-users on a regular basis? The fact that Sal participates in this forum at all is an incredible privilege, and something that I think many participants here sometimes take for granted. With all of the demands on his time, it is an honor that he chooses to share some of it with all of us. And he does it because he TRULY CARES about each end-line-user. So next time, before people jump to conclusions and speculate that a lack of corporate response to a forum post is some kind of a company conspiracy, please keep in mind that the company owners and employees have a business to run, families to care for, and perhaps are in the process of giving consideration to a thoughtful response to the issue. Patience is a virtue. Sal has always been a straight shooter. And while he may not always respond to every thread and question (which is not the case on this thread), you can bet that he is reading and considering a great deal of the content that is posted here. I value that immensely, which is why I have been a dedicated Spyderco enthusiast since the late 1990s.

[Fred Sanford]

...We're still trying to find the ideal solutions. Obviously to many of you, we haven't. But to many thousands that buy or products, we have.

I'll bring this up with Eric and mfg for discussion...

Thanks, Sal, for the considered response and your ongoing pursuit of constant improvement.

I prefer to just wash a knife in the hottest water you can handle with some dish soap, dry with a towel and compressed air and then oil it up.

Good point, that's definitely also a solid approach. Doesn't mesh well with my deep feeling that if you can't rebuild and maintain it, you don't own it, but that's my psychosis. I should probably film a video highlighting that your method works too, particularly when dealing with loctite or silly screws. Mind if I credit your post as inspiration?

Not at all Nick. Like I said, I'm a fan of your vids. Some things I like and some I don't, but the vast majority of what you do is great. Nobody is going to like everything that everyone does.

Don't get me wrong, I have taken apart many a knife. I have probably taken apart 15+ Para 2's and never have a problem. I think there may be some new folks out there that don't know how tight or loose a screw should be of that size. Many people (myself included when I was new) over tighten the small fasteners on pocket knives. I have broken off screw heads in the past and learned the hard way. It also used to happen when I used Torx drivers from Home Depot or Lowes. Now that I have a set of Wiha drivers, all is well.

I have never witnessed any red Loctite on any Spydie....only blue. Not that I don't believe that they are using red, I just have not seen it.

Thanks Nick.

[ChrisinHove]

Just my ha'p'orth* .....

My new Wolfspyder arrived a little stiff, this week.

I have previously tweaked the pivots on my comp lock PM2 and Yo2 to that sweet spot of free-dropping but no play, and my first instinct was to grab the torx driver and loosen off this pivot, as well.

No doing. Tight as a gnats whatsit and I knew if I pushed it, damage was going to happen.

Guess what? Two days of moderate manipulation and a squeeze of nano oil and it flicks open and closed more smoothly than any other knife I own.

As production tolerances reduce, and assembly practices are improved and refined, why on earth should it be a surprise that Spyderco set it up properly, for the action to break in naturally to where it should be? When the product is that well made, thread locker is no bad thing, surely.

The Wolfspyder comp lock operates with lovely, precise "shneck!". I haven't seen the separate sprung arm detent ball before, either. Well done, Captain America & Golden!

* ye olde English for "half penny worth"

[SpyderNut]

I've been watching this thread from the sidelines and as a primary user of vintage Spydercos, didn't have much of an opinion one way or another about red Loctite since I'm not a knife tweaker. But I will make one observation based on experience and that is that I have never seen another company as committed to genuine customer service, feedback, information sharing and constructive improvement as Spyderco. How many places are there where you have a forum like this one where the founder of the company interacts with end-line-users on a regular basis? The fact that Sal participates in this forum at all is an incredible privilege, and something that I think many participants here sometimes take for granted. With all of the demands on his time, it is an honor that he chooses to share some of it with all of us. And he does it because he TRULY CARES about each end-line-user. So next time, before people jump to conclusions and speculate that a lack of corporate response to a forum post is some kind of a company conspiracy, please keep in mind that the company owners and employees have a business to run, families to care for, and perhaps are in the process of giving consideration to a thoughtful response to the issue. Patience is a virtue. Sal has always been a straight shooter. And while he may not always respond to every thread and question (which is not the case on this thread), you can bet that he is reading and considering a great deal of the content that is posted here. I value that immensely, which is why I have been a dedicated Spyderco enthusiast since the late 1990s.

Excellent post. ^^^