Mule Team 24

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ShawnKirkpatrick
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Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Is this generation of the mule still available? If so would you choose the maxament steel over say a paramilitary 2 with S110V? Which would you most likely choose? Thanks.

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby jabba359 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:04 pm

The online store shows 115 still available.

I would take a folder (like the Para2) over a Mule because I can't/don't carry fixed blades that often. Now, if you're asking about a S110V Para2 vs a theoretical Maxamet PM2, that's a much tougher decision.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Spook410 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:36 pm

Surprised the Maxamet mules are still available. I like unique steels not because I test them or have the expertise to appreciate the nuances of materials science, but because my inner geek can't resist something so cool and unusual. However, I don't expect to see any real objective metric kind of difference in daily use once you get past S30V or so. And maybe it's just my imagination, but the Maxamet seems to be running sharper longer than anything I've seen. I still haven't touched up the initial edge I put on it. Fun knife.

I also have a PM2 in S110V. Might be the best outdoors folder ever. I like it so well I've asked for a Military S110V for Christmas.

If you want a non-stainless in a very hard steel, then the Maxamet. If you want something for your pocket with great utility, stainless, and one of the best steels you can buy, the S110V PM2. For my uses, it's the best all around knife available today. Of course, there's also the Manix in Maxamet but there is something about the PM2 design that just works well for me.

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:04 pm

Does anybody have the maxament mule and would like to tell about it?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Xplorer » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:21 pm

I have a couple of them. I have been using them for cutting steak at dinner while I travel 1 out of every 2 weeks, and I have been using them as my primary blade on hiking and backpacking trips lately as well. I just returned from 3 days backpacking with my daughter about an hour ago...and we both brought Maxamet Mules (plus other Spydercos :D ). I still don't think I've used them enough to give a fair and complete review but so far I can say they hold an edge amazingly well, and they've been tough enough to split small kindling without damaging the edge. I still haven't sharpened either one because I just don't need to yet. After I've sharpened both I should have a much better review to offer but so far I can say I'm becoming VERY fond of Maxamet.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:07 pm

Xplorer wrote:I have a couple of them. I have been using them for cutting steak at dinner while I travel 1 out of every 2 weeks, and I have been using them as my primary blade on hiking and backpacking trips lately as well. I just returned from 3 days backpacking with my daughter about an hour ago...and we both brought Maxamet Mules (plus other Spydercos :D ). I still don't think I've used them enough to give a fair and complete review but so far I can say they hold an edge amazingly well, and they've been tough enough to split small kindling without damaging the edge. I still haven't sharpened either one because I just don't need to yet. After I've sharpened both I should have a much better review to offer but so far I can say I'm becoming VERY fond of Maxamet.
Did you baton to get the kindling? And did y'all use them a lot of just light duty?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Xplorer » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:45 pm

We split 1" - 1 1/4" diameter branches and we did baton the spines to get them started. We did not baton the tip to finish splitting the wood because I was afraid we would break a tip off....this is VERY hard steel after all. Once the knife was in spine-deep we just whacked the other end of the branch on the ground and split them that way. We only split small stuff and I'd estimate we processed 25 pieces each and we made 2 feather sticks. Mules aren't the size and shape blades I would choose to process wood with if it wasn't for the fact that it's a Mule and I like to push them a bit to learn about the steel. This is a great meat cutting and slicing blade IMO. But, after beating both of our knives though wood long enough to get a nice fire going I am pleased to say we have no chips in either edge and no rolling. I can run my fingernail down the edge and it's smooth. They both still cut paper cleanly and cut my steak like a laser through butter.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:10 pm

Xplorer wrote:We split 1" - 1 1/4" diameter branches and we did baton the spines to get them started. We did not baton the tip to finish splitting the wood because I was afraid we would break a tip off....this is VERY hard steel after all. Once the knife was in spine-deep we just whacked the other end of the branch on the ground and split them that way. We only split small stuff and I'd estimate we processed 25 pieces each and we made 2 feather sticks. Mules aren't the size and shape blades I would choose to process wood with if it wasn't for the fact that it's a Mule and I like to push them a bit to learn about the steel. This is a great meat cutting and slicing blade IMO. But, after beating both of our knives though wood long enough to get a nice fire going I am pleased to say we have no chips in either edge and no rolling. I can run my fingernail down the edge and it's smooth. They both still cut paper cleanly and cut my steak like a laser through butter.
Very nice. Would you recommend the maxament mule?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Xplorer » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:55 pm

ShawnKirkpatrick wrote: Very nice. Would you recommend the maxament mule?
If a Mule is what you're looking for and superior edge holding is your priority, then yes I would recommend the Maxamet Mule. BUT... until I start and finish sharpening these 2 I won't really know if I like Maxamet better than S110V. Maxamet edge holding is amazing but so is S110V and I don't think I can really tell the difference yet. If these Maxamet blades sharpen more easily than S110V I'm prepared to say I like Maxamet better but I'm not quite there yet. :)
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby bearfacedkiller » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:46 am

I have used mine quite a bit. i havent used it anywhere near as much as I have used my S110V mule though. S110V is extremely stainless and Maxamet started staining almost instantly. I reprofiled my Maxamet mule right out of the box and it was quite easy but that may have been assisted by a fairly thin edge. I was able to get it screaming sharp after that with a microbevel and have just touched up the microbevel a few times and it has been easy to restore it to a hair popping edge. I want to use it more before I comment much on edge retention. It is deer season now and i am hoping to use it on a deer soon. That will give me a good base for conparison since I have used mules of various steels to process deer. So far it seems as though Maxamet resists bur formation and deburs easily. I think the high hardness may have something to do with that. I raised a bur all the way down both sides at 30 degrees and then just went right to 40 degrees to debur and it felt like the bur was just breaking off. It only toook a couple of passes on each siide and i was bur free and super sharp.

This is certainly a first impression and really need to use it more.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:44 am

I haven't deer hunted in probably 8 years and have wanted to get back into it (especially when my son gets here and is old enough to go out). I also would like to go camping a little more just to introduce him to the outdoors. I though the mule would be a good candidate to fit numerous of activities. I've read maxament does have good edge holding abilities but the stainless is all I'm worried about. Not the patina that it may or will develop, I'm just worried about maybe after processing a few squirrels, rabbits, or even a deer that it may not do as well as stainless. Or we all know when you out camping how knife care seems to fall short sometimes. I'm really interested in a fixed blade spyderco, and love the look of the mule. Man! I wish all the steel options were available.

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby bearfacedkiller » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:00 am

Quite a few of the mules pop up on Ebay and the exchange for reasonable prices.

The Mules are great versatile knives. They do everything fairly well. They are made for slicing and cutting so as long as hard bushcraft use isn't part of the plan they should do great. They are not designed for prying or batoning though. Maybe look for one in XHP or Elmax, they are great all around stainless steels.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:32 am

Would the maxament be a bad choose considering the elements I look for it to face? Or will I just need to stay on top of maintenance and upkeep of the knife?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Xplorer » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:02 am

ShawnKirkpatrick wrote:Would the maxament be a bad choose considering the elements I look for it to face? Or will I just need to stay on top of maintenance and upkeep of the knife?
I'm interested to hear what others think about your question... That said, my Maxamet Mules have not really shown any corrosion so far. But, considering the short amount of time I've been using them I don't have all the info I think I need yet. What I do know is, in the time I have been using them my M4 blades and my 1095 blades have developed surface rust that I have had to clean off and the Maxamet Mules have not yet. So far it looks to me like the upkeep required for Maxamet should be pretty easy.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby ShawnKirkpatrick » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:15 pm

Xplorer wrote:
ShawnKirkpatrick wrote:Would the maxament be a bad choose considering the elements I look for it to face? Or will I just need to stay on top of maintenance and upkeep of the knife?
I'm interested to hear what others think about your question... That said, my Maxamet Mules have not really shown any corrosion so far. But, considering the short amount of time I've been using them I don't have all the info I think I need yet. What I do know is, in the time I have been using them my M4 blades and my 1095 blades have developed surface rust that I have had to clean off and the Maxamet Mules have not yet. So far it looks to me like the upkeep required for Maxamet should be pretty easy.
How has your maxament mule held up over your time of use? And what kind of environment have that been subject to?

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Steel_Drake » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:59 pm

I just received my Maxamet Mule a couple of days ago.

I normally wouldn't have been interested in this type of steel, but I got into a discussion elsewhere about whether AlOx and SiC waterstones were able to grind highly wear resistant steels without leaving a clearly inferior quality and strength of apex compared to diamond plates, and I figured a blade in Maxamet would make an excellent testing platform to see how large the effects of this phenomena are, if any.

I haven't really gotten to use the knife much yet, and I've left it at the factory edge bevel angle for the purposes of the experiments I'm going to be using it for in the near term. I won't be able to give any sort of opinion on how it performs for me in an EDC role until I get a holster for it and lower the edge bevel angle to something like the ~8-10 degrees per side I usually use (which is were Maxamet's relatively low apex stability may become an issue).

For now, here are a few gratuitous pictures of a Maxamet Mule with a freehand mirrored edge bevel achieved purely with Sigma Power Select II waterstones for the first two pictures, and with some added stropping on Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish on a hanging denim strop for the bottom three:

These were achieved with a 1,000 -> 3,000 -> 10,000 -> 13,000 progression:
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Image

These were taken with some stropping on top of the above:
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Bodog » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:24 pm

Steel_Drake wrote:I just received my Maxamet Mule a couple of days ago.

I normally wouldn't have been interested in this type of steel, but I got into a discussion elsewhere about whether AlOx and SiC waterstones were able to grind highly wear resistant steels without leaving a clearly inferior quality and strength of apex compared to diamond plates, and I figured a blade in Maxamet would make an excellent testing platform to see how large the effects of this phenomena are, if any.

I haven't really gotten to use the knife much yet, and I've left it at the factory edge bevel angle for the purposes of the experiments I'm going to be using it for in the near term. I won't be able to give any sort of opinion on how it performs for me in an EDC role until I get a holster for it and lower the edge bevel angle to something like the ~8-10 degrees per side I usually use (which is were Maxamet's relatively low apex stability may become an issue).

For now, here are a few gratuitous pictures of a Maxamet Mule with a freehand mirrored edge bevel achieved purely with Sigma Power Select II waterstones for the first two pictures, and with some added stropping on Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish on a hanging denim strop for the bottom three:

These were achieved with a 1,000 -> 3,000 -> 10,000 -> 13,000 progression:

These were taken with some stropping on top of the above:
Without trying to be offensive, 8-10 degrees per side is pretty ridiculous. You should be able to do all you need to do with a 13-15 degree per side edge bevel (maybe up to 20 dps for some really crappy work) and then adjust your knives for spine and behind the edge thickness. If you want to keep to ridiculous edge angles, that's cool, but don't go assuming everyone else wants or remotely needs that type of ridiculousness. Even razor blades are about 15 dps and no one really questions their sharpness. You can argue all you want but seriously, most people dont ask for truly unreasonable things.

I've taken some truly outstanding 52100 to about 10 dps and it sucked pretty badly. I took it up to 15 and it was really outstanding. I've taken some outstanding 1095 to about 10 dps and it sucked pretty badly. I took S30V down to about 12 dps (and 15 dps wasn't great either) and it was horrible. All that was real life use. The point is, cliff doesn't know enough or isn't willing to admit his theories aren't about real life use. And I wonder if you're in the same boat as him. If you can make ANY steel work at 8-10 dps, you should probably dramatically decrease the behind the edge and spine thickness and then increase the edge angle and you'll find a substantial increase in real life satisfaction without trying to apply ridiculous edge angles.

Again, no offense. I just don't like seeing guys promote what's obviously bullcrap to others.

And no, just no. Alox or sic stones can not and will not shape the vanadium carbides in any steel. You're polishing the steel matrix, which is essentially just carbon and iron, rather than any carbide clusters, not refining the edge. Sorry to disappoint you. As long as the stone is as hard or harder than the steel matrix, you can polish a steel. Doesn't mean jack crap about the carbides. You can absolutely polish 10V at 68 RC with a 5000 grit alox stone as long as the stones particles are harder than the 10V's steel matrix. Doesn't mean you're getting the best performance out of the steel.

Please don't misinform those who don't know better. Yes, this last paragraph was a crossover post from BF.
Last edited by Bodog on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Steel_Drake » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:04 pm

Bodog wrote:8-10 degrees per side is pretty ridiculous.
You may not be aware of this but I have at least a dozen knives that I EDC with edge bevels in the ~8-10 degree per side range. I use a ~15-20 degree per side microbevel to set my apexes and to allow quick touch-ups between full sharpenings. I haven't had any issues aside from the occasional microscopic apex chipping (particularly on my ZDP-189 Caly 3.5). Hell, several of my Spydercos have significantly thinned out primary grinds on top of having ~8-10 degree per side edge bevel angles and I haven't had any issues on coardboard, clamshell packaging, or even large volumes of consumer grade zip-ties.
you should probably dramatically decrease the behind the edge and spine thickness and then increase the edge angle and you'll find a substantial increase in real life satisfaction without trying to apply ridiculous edge angles.
As I noted above, I've done both to the same knives in several cases without issue.

If Maxamet will not work for me at similar behind the edge thicknesses and at similar sharpening angles, then it will turn out not to be a suitable steel choice for my personal uses. That was not meant to be any sort of commentary on whether the steel would be useful for others.
Yes, this last paragraph was a crossover post from BF.
Please do not try and engage me in discussions from other threads or about other people, thank you.

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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Bodog » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:09 pm

Steel_Drake wrote:
Bodog wrote:8-10 degrees per side is pretty ridiculous.
You may not be aware of this but I have at least a dozen knives that I EDC with edge bevels in the ~8-10 degree per side range. I use a ~15-20 degree per side microbevel to set my apexes and to allow quick touch-ups between full sharpenings. I haven't had any issues aside from the occasional microscopic apex chipping (particularly on my ZDP-189 Caly 3.5). Hell, several of my Spydercos have significantly thinned out primary grinds on top of having ~8-10 degree per side edge bevel angles and I haven't had any issues on coardboard, clamshell packaging, or even large volumes of consumer grade zip-ties.
you should probably dramatically decrease the behind the edge and spine thickness and then increase the edge angle and you'll find a substantial increase in real life satisfaction without trying to apply ridiculous edge angles.
As I noted above, I've done both to the same knives in several cases without issue.

If Maxamet will not work for me at similar behind the edge thicknesses and at similar sharpening angles, then it will turn out not to be a suitable steel choice for my personal uses. That was not meant to be any sort of commentary on whether the steel would be useful for others.
Yes, this last paragraph was a crossover post from BF.
Please do not try and engage me in discussions from other threads or about other people, thank you.
I really don't care. You're parroting cliff stamp. And not even accurately parroting cliff stamp. Cliff stamp, for whatever it's worth, makes the distinction between edge stability between steels and how that relates to geometry and usage. You're just saying if a steel doesn't hold up at 8 dps then it's not for you like it should matter to anyone. You're not giving any deference whatsoever to actual blade geometry or intended use. You're misguiding people and that's not appreciated. At the very least you should state your requirements are so far out of line with most other people (and reality) that people should disregard your opinions unless they happen to know what you're talking about.
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Re: Mule Team 24

Postby Steel_Drake » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:28 pm

Bodog wrote:You're just saying if a steel doesn't hold up at 8 dps then it's not for you. That's not giving any deference whatsoever to actual blade geometry or intended use. You're misguiding people and that's not appreciated.
Whether or not a steel works at low edge thicknesses (in practice similar edge thicknesses can be achieved by lowing edge bevel angles or by thinning out a knife behind the edge) is data that some people may find useful. I don't recall at any point advocating that other should similarly thin out their primary grinds and use low edge bevel angles, and for that matter, the kind of knife user that would even consider regrinding the primary grind on their knife or radically lowering the edge bevel angle is going to be fully capable of evaluating for themselves whether those steps are compatible with their anticipated scope of work.

As an aside, this is a picture of my Spyderco Mantra in CPM-M4 with a thinned out primary grind and a ~8 degree per side edge bevel angle after cutting a bag full of zip ties. It did not suffer any ill effects whatsoever.

Image


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