I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

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Vivi
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I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Vivi » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:05 pm

I've tried this model various times because it has so many features I love, but the handle genuinely confuses me. I feel its a dramatic step back compared to the Endura 3 handle when it comes to ergonomics. I love every other change to the handle...the jimping on the spine, the new texture, the more rounded butt....but the ergos do not make sense to me.

Here is an image showing how I think the Endura 4 was designed to be held:

Image

This grip creates multiple problems.

First, my index finger and middle finger barely have enough room to fit in front of the finger groove in the middle of the handle. They feel cramped and uncomfortable.

Second, this does not give me enough space to effectively use the thumb ramp. Again it makes my hand feel too cramped and my base joint of my thumb will hurt within a minute of hard cutting.

Lastly I have to shift my hand back to close it (I close Spyderco lockbacks one handed by swinging the blade shut with my index finger using the spyder hole, while pinching the lock release with my thumb). I do not have to do this with the E3 handle.


Here is another image, showing another possible grip for this knife:

Image

This is worlds more comfortable. My fingers have enough space to be comfortable and my thumb has enough room to use the thumb ramp as intended. However, this grip also creates as many issues as it fixes for me:

Now the knife feels too blade heavy. This is especially noticeable on saber ground variants, but it also disrupts the balance of FFG Enduras.

Second, now my hand feels like its too far back from the cutting edge. The closer your index finger is to the edge, the better your control is, which is one of the many advantages of Spydercos index finger choils they often use.



So I'm just perplexed by this change to the Endura line. Neither grip works as well for me as the regular grip on the Endura 3 handle. The E3 got my hand closer to the cutting edge than the second grip I showed with the E4, while being 100% ergonomic for me.

What am I missing?

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Skidoosh » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:20 pm

A choil

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:32 pm

Hi Vivi, my feelings are very similar to yours on the E4 for the exact same reasons you pointed out. I much prefer the shape and ergonomics of the E3/Pacific Salt.

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Postby Evil D » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:02 pm

Yep this is exactly why I don't own a Delica or Endura. They did something right with the Mantra though as my index and middle finger (although still a teeny bit cramped) are far better than a Delica and are tolerable. I would just assume they all had smooth rounded finger areas like the Harpy or Stretch have. Incidentally this is also a big reason I'd take a Stretch over either of those knives, along with a slew of other reasons that make it a better knife.
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Re: Evil D

Postby Surfingringo » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:19 am

Evil D wrote:Yep this is exactly why I don't own a Delica or Endura. They did something right with the Mantra though as my index and middle finger (although still a teeny bit cramped) are far better than a Delica and are tolerable. I would just assume they all had smooth rounded finger areas like the Harpy or Stretch have. Incidentally this is also a big reason I'd take a Stretch over either of those knives, along with a slew of other reasons that make it a better knife.
I don't have the issues with the D4 that I do with the E4 but that said, I'd still agree with you that the Mantra is an improvement over the Delica as far as the size and placement of the finger grooves go. My first two fingers are slightly cramped on the D4 but not on the mantra.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:14 am

I agree 100%. The endura4 just does not work for me. That said, the Delica4 works great for me.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby ABX2011 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:50 am

I agree. If this is to be a work knife, you can easily hand sand or belt sand the FRN with 80 grit (and then finer grit) paper. You can reduce or eliminate the hump(s) that constrain your grip.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby The Deacon » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:27 am

I agree. It's not just the Endura, either. I like a handle with enough structure to contain my hand and l really like having the option of an alternative grip that a 50/50 choil provides. OTOH, I do not like handles that force me to fit my fingers into arbitrary locations because, more often than not, the hands of the person who designed the handle are not the same size as mine.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby dplafoll » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:00 am

This is why Spyderco makes multiple knives in various size classes. The Endura and the Manix XL are comparable in size, and the Caly 3.5 and the Stretch are not much less. The Delica and the Sages and the Native are comparable. So there are alternatives to the no-choil knives in similar sizes, and there are others that are in the middle like the Manix and PM2, or the Millie is a little bigger.

Personally, my grip on the Endura is fine, although like many I think it's better on the Delica and more so on the Mantra. But with pretty much all knives, YMMV based on the design, your hands, and your preferences.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby swigert » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:15 am

Surfingringo wrote:Hi Vivi, my feelings are very similar to yours on the E4 for the exact same reasons you pointed out. I much prefer the shape and ergonomics of the E3/Pacific Salt.
This. Or a delica. I've really moved away from enduras and I carry anything in the Japan line it's a delica in HAP40.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby tripscheck'em » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:15 am

There's 2 grip positions

The first is where your index and middle finger both occupy together the first deep finger choil on the handle, for detail cutting jobs.

The second is where only your index finger occupies the same area and the rest of your hand moves back one finger position onto the rest of the handle. This grip is for thrusts and power cutting. Your thumb in this case won't rest on the blade's jimping but will sit on the handle jimping forward of the backlock.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby clovisc » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:51 am

I am a big fan of the E4 ergos. For some reason, the shape feels totally natural in my hand. No hot spots, and plenty of grippiness. I also like the E3 shape, and have used it to a great extent for cutting chores over the last decade via Pacific Salts and Spyderhawks. Different hands and cutting styles translate to different preferred ergos. Fortunately, Spyderco offers a dazzling variety for users of all types.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Doc Dan » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:41 am

All you need to do is file down that bump that hits your middle finger and that will cure the grip problems. I know this from experience.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Vivi » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:32 am

ABX2011 wrote:I agree. If this is to be a work knife, you can easily hand sand or belt sand the FRN with 80 grit (and then finer grit) paper. You can reduce or eliminate the hump(s) that constrain your grip.
I whittled the handle down with my Para 2, then sanded it down smooth. Whenever I remember where I put that Endura I'll post some pictures. It's a great knife for me now.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby HammerHill » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:08 pm

I agree with OP, I owned an Endura and sold it for exactly the ergonomic flaws he describes.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby farnorthdan » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:51 pm

Not a huge endura fan for this vary reason, the only ones I have are the super blue and HAP40, only to complete the sets.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby DougC-3 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:35 pm

I agree. The E4 peaks usually strike me in the "belly" of my middle and ring fingers, but the peaks are so low that I don't even notice them most of the time and haven't bothered to grind them down. Overall, really, I find the knife very comfortable and can move my fingers freely up and down the handle. I am a bit of an E4 fan and have 6 at last count. The peaks fit me better with the Pac Salt, but the rounded butt of the Endura is more comfortable in the heel of my hand. If I were doing hard cutting with the E4, I might grind the peaks down.

One thing I don't like is for a handle design to try to force me to hold the knife in a certain way. For this reason the high peak at the back of the choil on my Sage 3 really bugs me and gets in my way. If the liner wasn't so close I'd grind it down quite a bit, making the choil longer and less obtrusive. In fact, I think I'll do it anyway. But that's the only thing I don't like about the Sage 3... except the fancy argyle sock pattern in the CF ;)
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby spydutch » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:05 am

Exactly the same with me concerning the E4.
Tried twice back then and got rid of them twice.
On the other hand I have 3 Endura's 3 :D

I have an old Endura 1 aus8 and that knife fits like a glove. Wish Spyderco kept that platform to make the improved version. Same about the Delica's as well. To get a nice grip (for me) on the D4 I have to remove the clip.

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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby Brock O Lee » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:35 am

Hi Vivi, I think your original post hits the nail squarely on the head on why the Delica somehow never 'clicked' for me, but why the Stretch just works so superbly. I've compared the two now side by side and it is those finger grooves on the Delica that does not actually match my hand. I can see that it could work for people with small hands. I've never tried an Endura, but I can see that it could work for people with very large hands.
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Re: I don't understand how to hold an Endura 4

Postby anagarika » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:26 pm

Although I have small hand and can fit the first two fingers into the first curve, I found that the grip is not 100% natural.
The best grip is actually a mixture of Cara Cara 2 FRN with E4 texture. It will have all the good E3 features: thicker butt (much more comfortable), modelled after E3, butt not squarish (more rounded at where the palm pressing in hard push), added a functional choil. Combine that with rounded edges and bidirectional texture of an E4. It'll be perfect. And no jimping on the back of FRN, like in Stretch.

Sal has recently said MBC related design (if not mistaken, Endura is one) shouldn't have choil, so I'm good if choil is removed. Imagine E3 handle with rounded butt (ala Cara Cara 2), and texture / rounding of E4. A WINNER!!! :D

With E4 handle like it is I like Stretch grip much better .. (Paul, Hans, same here). Strangely, I found D4 doesn't fit me well at all.
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