Lately I´ve been looking for a new martial art to train in. My background for the past ten years is in Jiu Jitsu (mostly), Aikido and Iaido, and I was actually looking for something similar to that. I always appreciated the physical conditioning, fun and fighting principles you can pick up at a good dojo. However, I´m getting more and more frustrated at the people that run these schools in my area, it´s either sport first and self-defense way last on the list, and even then, the self defense techniques are totally unrealistic!
And if you do find a " reality-minded" school, it´s run by this wannabe idiot! Why aren´t there more people around who just like to teach their style for what it is, acknowledge it´s positive and negative aspects. I guess membership fees are everything these days.
Anyway, while I was surfing the net for some local schools (which do not include any of the cool stuff like Escrima, Kali or even an MBC facility I hear you kids raving so much about<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>), I found this fencing school.
It is my goal to enroll in a school to
A) have fun
B) keep my endurance/physical fitness up to date
C) be engaged in a Martial Art, preferrably weapons training.
D) pick up some skills/prinicples to aid in my MBC training.
Do you think fencing can help with point D?
I remember James Keating writing a lot on fencing being a fundamental part of Bowie knife fighting. How would fencing training complement MBC? Could you pick up the appropriate reflexes, footwork, rythm? Or should I just look further. Remember, martial arts training in my environment is very limited. And I still train with my sparring buddy in all the fun stuff that involve nasty ambush attacks, sticks and practice blades. It´s just that you can pick up only so much from books. I feel I need a school to poin out the finer things you know.
So in my case: fencing yea of nea?
Thanx,
Wouter
Fencing??
I think that you will find it to be of some benefit.I've been involved with Shorinji Kempo for 19 years with a good reality based instructor,much like you are looking for.In addition to many seminars in other arts,I've also done some European style fencing for about a year.All of the martial arts that I've been exposed to have given me something worthwhile. Some more than others.Besides being a whole lot of fun (I love sparring of any sort),fencing allows you to use full speed and power without the need to hold back in order not to hurt your sparring partner.Mistakes are also easier on the body.Certain principles and techniques you will find applicable,with modifications,to your other arts.As an analogy, I liken fencing to your present arts in the same way that proffesional American football players sometimes take ballet lessons in order to improve their grace on the playing field.Conversly,I also think that you would find that your previous martial arts training helps in fencing.Good luck & have fun!
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aero_student
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I have no actual fencing training yet, so I have been hesitating to say anything here, but I did look into the types of fencing, so I will contribute my two cents. Fencing as a sport often fights in a line, with no lateral movement, so it will have almost ZERO application to self-defense and MBC. Some fencing methods train in more realistic "fighting in the round," which means movements can be made in any direction. James Keating's methods are based on reality, and the sporting aspect is only incidental. I hope to learn from Professor Keating myself someday. Meanwhile, based on his one tape in my possession, he does a very good job of presenting the material, and is a fountain of knowledge.
"Fencing as a sport often fights in a line, with no lateral movement, so it will have almost ZERO application to self-defense and MBC."
Hsing-i tends to be linear, just as Pa-Kua tends to be circular, which is why students often learn both.
The late Jimmy Woo, of Kungfu San Soo fame, came from a family of caravan guards. I understand that his style included a linear form for fighting on bridges. Linear methods are particularly useful in hallways, between parked cars, and on stairways.
I don't see how learning good linear motion could hurt.
Qship
Hsing-i tends to be linear, just as Pa-Kua tends to be circular, which is why students often learn both.
The late Jimmy Woo, of Kungfu San Soo fame, came from a family of caravan guards. I understand that his style included a linear form for fighting on bridges. Linear methods are particularly useful in hallways, between parked cars, and on stairways.
I don't see how learning good linear motion could hurt.
Qship
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J D Wijbenga
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I have had some fencing experience. I'll take you points one by one.
a)Depending on the atmosphere of the club, yes you will have full. Fencing is full of very fast action.
b)Yes. Fencing is pretty intense and active.
c)Yes. Though in the framework of a sport. So there are rules which have nothing to do with 'real' fighting. The sabre is probably most related to a 'modern' weapon...the cane/walking stick.
d)A little. See above and it sharpens your reflexes and anticipation. It is very fast and subtle!
I would say go for it if the atmosphere at the club is good. Learn a Western Martial Art!
JD
a)Depending on the atmosphere of the club, yes you will have full. Fencing is full of very fast action.
b)Yes. Fencing is pretty intense and active.
c)Yes. Though in the framework of a sport. So there are rules which have nothing to do with 'real' fighting. The sabre is probably most related to a 'modern' weapon...the cane/walking stick.
d)A little. See above and it sharpens your reflexes and anticipation. It is very fast and subtle!
I would say go for it if the atmosphere at the club is good. Learn a Western Martial Art!
JD
Having recently taken up Fencing I should throw in a few cents here...
First, one of the reasons I took up Fencing was for its crosstraining value - Bruce Lee used many techniques and concepts from Fencing in his creation of Jeet Kune Do. Many fo his best concpets are stolen from Fencing - the "straight blast" and "parry and counter" which is "Parry, Riposte" in fencing. Linnear movement is essential to martial arts and defence, but as we all know, is only one part of the package.
This is where I point out that Jerry VanCook sites an intersting anecdote in his book on Self-Defence - He comments on being a judge at Hock Hockheim's "kill Shot" contest. He notes that of all the various martial artists, knife combat students and teachers, etc... the guy who won (and won handily) was a classically trained Fencer. Kill Shot and MBC are very different things, but skills transfer over.
Fencing moves fast and requires excellent body skills. If you do not feel that sport fencing will transfer many actual "combat skills" understand that it will transfer physical skills and help build them.
One of the most interesting things about fencing is its choice of weapons: Foil, Epee and Sabre. Foil is the most commonly recognized, but Sabre is the most like using a bladed sword, or cutlass (still favoured by Naval Officers in Europe who still fence as part of officer school). Epee is unique in that the whole body is a target are - arguably making it the more "realistic" of the three (although you can slash with the Sabre. Foil only uses the torso as a target. Either way, the skills remain the same and being able to attack the body in a linear way past a strong guard is a good skill to have.
I should note that I live in Kosovo and have a former Yugoslav coach and he has a particularly "rough" style... Makes it good for fighting applications.
Hope you try the fencing. I recommend it to anyone as part of their trainng program.
Cheers,
Sirius
First, one of the reasons I took up Fencing was for its crosstraining value - Bruce Lee used many techniques and concepts from Fencing in his creation of Jeet Kune Do. Many fo his best concpets are stolen from Fencing - the "straight blast" and "parry and counter" which is "Parry, Riposte" in fencing. Linnear movement is essential to martial arts and defence, but as we all know, is only one part of the package.
This is where I point out that Jerry VanCook sites an intersting anecdote in his book on Self-Defence - He comments on being a judge at Hock Hockheim's "kill Shot" contest. He notes that of all the various martial artists, knife combat students and teachers, etc... the guy who won (and won handily) was a classically trained Fencer. Kill Shot and MBC are very different things, but skills transfer over.
Fencing moves fast and requires excellent body skills. If you do not feel that sport fencing will transfer many actual "combat skills" understand that it will transfer physical skills and help build them.
One of the most interesting things about fencing is its choice of weapons: Foil, Epee and Sabre. Foil is the most commonly recognized, but Sabre is the most like using a bladed sword, or cutlass (still favoured by Naval Officers in Europe who still fence as part of officer school). Epee is unique in that the whole body is a target are - arguably making it the more "realistic" of the three (although you can slash with the Sabre. Foil only uses the torso as a target. Either way, the skills remain the same and being able to attack the body in a linear way past a strong guard is a good skill to have.
I should note that I live in Kosovo and have a former Yugoslav coach and he has a particularly "rough" style... Makes it good for fighting applications.
Hope you try the fencing. I recommend it to anyone as part of their trainng program.
Cheers,
Sirius
Thanks, Qship, and I stand corrected. I will, however, continue to use lateral movement as much as possible, because in the dark, it is hard to tell if a bad guy is pulling a contact weapon or projectile weapon or is even armed at all. I have not fought on bridges, but a narrow hallway in a rooming house is just as bad, with nowhere to go. I agree; train both ways.
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Michael Janich
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Dear Mr. Blonde:
For a good look at how fencing can be effectively applied to defensive knife use, check out Jim Keating's videos, including his Bowie Knife series, his Crossada video, and his "Legacy of Steel" video. They are available from his web site www.combattech.com and www.paladin-press.com.
Jim has done more research than anyone I know into the practical fighting applications of the fencing method. He effectively uses moves like in quartata with small, medium, and large knives and uses fencing footwork extensively in his personal knfe fighting style. By combining some hands-on training in fencing with Jim's insights, I'm sure you could go a long way in your personal training.
Also, if you're looking for traditional Asian knife methods, you might want to look around for pentjak silat instructors in your area. Like the Filipino arts, the Indonesian arts have a rich blade heritage.
Stay safe,
Mike
mike j
For a good look at how fencing can be effectively applied to defensive knife use, check out Jim Keating's videos, including his Bowie Knife series, his Crossada video, and his "Legacy of Steel" video. They are available from his web site www.combattech.com and www.paladin-press.com.
Jim has done more research than anyone I know into the practical fighting applications of the fencing method. He effectively uses moves like in quartata with small, medium, and large knives and uses fencing footwork extensively in his personal knfe fighting style. By combining some hands-on training in fencing with Jim's insights, I'm sure you could go a long way in your personal training.
Also, if you're looking for traditional Asian knife methods, you might want to look around for pentjak silat instructors in your area. Like the Filipino arts, the Indonesian arts have a rich blade heritage.
Stay safe,
Mike
mike j
While this is a bit far afield, the late John Styer's book, Cold Steel, touches on fencing techniques applied to, and modified for, the knife and, especially, the bayonet. He is particularly fond of the beat parry with the latter weapon. I believe the book is still available from Paladin Press.
It is a fascinating book from an historical perspective. It is also worthwhile because his knife fighting methods are still taught in some circles, and it is useful to gain insight into a possible adversary's system.
Since Escrima partially evolved from the conflict between Spanish conquistadors and Filipinos, it contains elements of practical European sword play. I expect the quickest, most effective way to convert traditional swordsmanship into something more useful would to study with the best Escrimador you can find. Mr. Janich comes to mind.
Qship
It is a fascinating book from an historical perspective. It is also worthwhile because his knife fighting methods are still taught in some circles, and it is useful to gain insight into a possible adversary's system.
Since Escrima partially evolved from the conflict between Spanish conquistadors and Filipinos, it contains elements of practical European sword play. I expect the quickest, most effective way to convert traditional swordsmanship into something more useful would to study with the best Escrimador you can find. Mr. Janich comes to mind.
Qship