U.S.-made S30V/G-10 vs. Japanese-made VG-10/G-10

[Cujobob]

I would also agree that the pricing doesn't always make a lot of sense. For me, VG-10 has been wildly inconsistent in heat treat quality and the Japanese F&F has been good, but not great. There's a lot of markups in place it seems: dealers, collaborators, businesses the work is being outsourced to, etc. I hope the pricing gets a bit more competitive because my Spydey shopping has been really slow in 2016.

[Blerv]

PM2 and Manix2 have subsidized MSRP's as I understand to remain very competitive in their relative market. Others (like Paul mentioned) have collaboration fees or unseen manufacturing expenses that we simply don't/can't understand as we aren't building them ourselves.

It's been years since Sal has commented, I think, but I assume the yen vs US Dollar conversation is still problematic (even if less than before). That and misc expenses with building knives overseas such as shipping costs.

In general unless things have changed the profit margin seems a fairly consistent percentage (even if we don't know it). MSRP is a function of cost to build. More expensive to build knives cost more money. It seems this (price) is a second concern for Spyderco compared to not bringing a particular knife to market and especially less than sacrificing quality to achieve price.

Personally it doesn't bother me either way. I'll buy what I want and pay a bit more if it "speaks to me". I do buy knives far less often than before and have trimmed-down my collection though. At some price point though I simply will not buy a Spyderco knife (Rubicon, Blue Chaparral, etc) as I would prefer to buy affordable or used customs for just a bit more.

[bearfacedkiller]

The BRG FRN Stretch in ZDP costs a quite a bit less than the Stretch2 with G10 and ZDP. I realize some of the factors influencing this but the price difference is still quite substantial. One has a $200 msrp and one has a $350 msrp. I struggle with understanding that one.

It doesn't compute with me either. Stretch ZDP FRN has a MAP (40% off MSRP) of $120 whereas the Stretch ZDP G-10 has a MAP of $210. That's a 75% increase! Last year I got one of the Stretch ZDP G-10 for $175 (50% off MSRP) and I think even that's a stretch (pun intended)! :)

I have a Stretch2 and I am actually carrying it today. It is a great knife and I love it but when comparing it to the Stretch FRN in ZDP for $120 or the S110V Para2 for $150 the value isn't there. I bring this up mainly because I really enjoy the Stretch platform and would like to see it be successful. If I was in the market for a 3.5 inch folder with stellar edge retention I am not sure why I would buy the Stretch2 over those other two for much less money. Well, I bought both the Stretch2 and the S110V Para2 but I also have a slight problem/addiction and do not represent most buyers. I couldn't wait to get my hands on the Stretch2.

[bearfacedkiller]

I will also add that I don't worry about price after I spend it so I haven't been dwelling on it either. I paid like $212 shipped for an Elmax Para2 from BBS and have no regrets there either. Long after the pain of overpaying subsides you are left with nothing more than a really sweet knife that you really wanted. The price will always be a factor though. I just love the Para2, love foliage green and love Elmax so it was enough desire for me to accept the price. Some knives I want may not be enough for me to spend a lot. I was gonna buy a Lil' Lum and at this point it has moved pretty far down my list due to price. Oh well, Spyderco continues to pump out more knives than I can possibly need or afford so I just pick up the ones I can when I can. I am quite satisfied.

[SG89]

I will also add that I don't worry about price after I spend it so I haven't been dwelling on it either. I paid like $212 shipped for an Elmax Para2 from BBS and have no regrets there either. Long after the pain of overpaying subsides you are left with nothing more than a really sweet knife that you really wanted. The price will always be a factor though. I just love the Para2, love foliage green and love Elmax so it was enough desire for me to accept the price. Some knives I want may not be enough for me to spend a lot. I was gonna buy a Lil' Lum and at this point it has moved pretty far down my list due to price. Oh well, Spyderco continues to pump out more knives than I can possibly need or afford so I just pick up the ones I can when I can. I am quite satisfied.

I agree with you especially on the Elmax PM2 and Lil Lum and you're last 2 sentences

[roger-roger]

Agree +. Ergonomics and design-use overrides the kind of price differences we're looking at.

[flash900]

Based on the high price, casual consumers have wondered if these Japanese-made VG-10/G-10 are that much better than the U.S.-made S30V/G-10 ones and I tell them that the quality of the U.S.-made ones are actually better with better materials plus you save a lot of money. I do tell them about high labor costs in Japan and the exchange rate but most are astonished by the big price differential.

I only recommend Japanese-made Spydercos with H-1 to them since it fills a nice niche. Mainly I steer them to either Golden or Taichung models. Taichung has lots of quality folders between $117.57 and 179.97 which incidentally have more expensive materials.

Well said, Ram, although clearly there is more to any buying decision than price.

[bh49]

It's been years since Sal has commented, I think, but I assume the yen vs US Dollar conversation is still problematic (even if less than before).

FYI
2012 - 1 USD = 75 YEN
Today 1 USD = 110.59 YEN

[Blerv]

It's been years since Sal has commented, I think, but I assume the yen vs US Dollar conversation is still problematic (even if less than before).

FYI
2012 - 1 USD = 75 YEN
Today 1 USD = 110.59 YEN

Interesting, thanks :).

Perhaps volume is key then among other details mentioned above. With Golden, Taichung, and Italian makers expanding their Spyderco production perhaps Japan is a more costly bracket than before. Maybe that's just a wild assumption.

Unless Spyderco wants to cut profits I guess we just have to trust they are being fair and selectively shop. Or...not :D.

[DougC-3]

The BRG FRN Stretch in ZDP costs a quite a bit less than the Stretch2 with G10 and ZDP. I realize some of the factors influencing this but the price difference is still quite substantial. One has a $200 msrp and one has a $350 msrp. I struggle with understanding that one.

It doesn't compute with me either. Stretch ZDP FRN has a MAP (40% off MSRP) of $120 whereas the Stretch ZDP G-10 has a MAP of $210. That's a 75% increase! Last year I got one of the Stretch ZDP G-10 for $175 (50% off MSRP) and I think even that's a stretch (pun intended)! :)

I have a Stretch2 and I am actually carrying it today. It is a great knife and I love it but when comparing it to the Stretch FRN in ZDP for $120 or the S110V Para2 for $150 the value isn't there. I bring this up mainly because I really enjoy the Stretch platform and would like to see it be successful. If I was in the market for a 3.5 inch folder with stellar edge retention I am not sure why I would buy the Stretch2 over those other two for much less money. Well, I bought both the Stretch2 and the S110V Para2 but I also have a slight problem/addiction and do not represent most buyers. I couldn't wait to get my hands on the Stretch2.

Another factor affecting the Stretch2 price, which I didn't see mentioned above:
Of course when a new model is intorduced, the cost of new tooling has to be worked in somehow, and G Sakai might feel to need to recover these costs more quickly than would be done in Golden, especially since this was just a test run of the Stretch2 to see it would be accepted well enough to repeat in FRN.

I'm also very fond of the new Stretch2, though I tried and was unable to really like the FRN Stretch. I was lucky enough to get one in brand new condition from a respected forumite for $150 :p For me the #2 has better hand-fit and balance, and I guess it took me a while to get used to the blade shape (of both), which is great for food prep and I'm sure, skinning. If I could have tried the first one in CF I would have liked it better, though I love my FRN Enduras.

[bearfacedkiller]

I might also add that the Bradley2 is an amazing value. I find that while Taichung is making some impressive and costly knives they are also making some knives that are very reasonable for what you get. The Bradley is a lot of knife for $140. The Sage1 is another example. For just over a hundred bucks it is a great knife. My Sage3 is as smooth as glass and has a great lock. These are worth every penny in my eyes.

[DougC-3]

My CF Chaparral and CF Sage 3 are surely two of my best built and smoothest operating knives and both very reasonably priced. And the Taichung mules are flawlessly made. Strange that only about 9% of my Spydercos come from Taiwan. Mainly, I think, because I like more basic designs like Endura, Delica, Caly, Millie, Manix, etc, plus the appeal of all the sprints and exclusives from Golden and Seki.

[Xplorer]

The BRG FRN Stretch in ZDP costs a quite a bit less than the Stretch2 with G10 and ZDP. I realize some of the factors influencing this but the price difference is still quite substantial. One has a $200 msrp and one has a $350 msrp. I struggle with understanding that one.

It doesn't compute with me either. Stretch ZDP FRN has a MAP (40% off MSRP) of $120 whereas the Stretch ZDP G-10 has a MAP of $210. That's a 75% increase! Last year I got one of the Stretch ZDP G-10 for $175 (50% off MSRP) and I think even that's a stretch (pun intended)! :)

Initially I thought the Stretch 2 in ZDP and G10 was somewhat expensive too, but I'll admit I forgot about all of that after I started using it. I think there are a couple of factors that can be considered in the pricing difference. They don't just put different scales and a different blade on the same knife like they do on many sprint runs. The Stretch 2 ZPD G10 version has a longer handle which means unique tooling. It also has full skeletonized steel liners which means more materials and labor time. Add to that, the extra cost of the G10 and the higher cost of the ZDP of course. Since it's heavier and more expensive it undoubtedly sells in smaller volumes than the FRN original so costs would have to be amortized over a smaller number of units. Although the two knives look almost the same the actual differences from a cost standpoint may be more substantial that it appears.

[Xplorer]

I might also add that the Bradley2 is an amazing value. I find that while Taichung is making some impressive and costly knives they are also making some knives that are very reasonable for what you get. The Bradley is a lot of knife for $140. The Sage1 is another example. For just over a hundred bucks it is a great knife. My Sage3 is as smooth as glass and has a great lock. These are worth every penny in my eyes.

I completely agree! The Bradley 2 is IMO the absolute best value of any Spyderco I've purchased. :D

[RamZar]

Bottomline, the Japanase-made Spydercos with VG-10 & G-10 are just not competitive against similar knives from other knifemakers and even against Spydercos from U.S. and Taichung.

[Xplorer]

I definitely get your point Ramzar. This is likely one of the reasons I own far more Taichung Spyders than Japan Spyders.

I have been making a few knives lately out 1095, S35VN and M4. I find S30V and S35VN readily available in a ton of places and the prices are pretty reasonable considering the quality. I pay about $60 for a 1/8" x 1" x 36" piece of S35VN. This thread got me wondering if the raw cost of VG10 is a big factor here, so I decided to try to source some. I can't freakin' find any for sale. Does anyone know where one can buy VG10? I wonder if availability is one of the factors adding to the prices?

[RamZar]

I have been making a few knives lately out 1095, S35VN and M4. I find S30V and S35VN readily available in a ton of places and the prices are pretty reasonable considering the quality. I pay about $60 for a 1/8" x 1" x 36" piece of S35VN. This thread got me wondering if the raw cost of VG10 is a big factor here, so I decided to try to source some. I can't freakin' find any for sale. Does anyone know where one can buy VG10? I wonder if availability is one of the factors adding to the prices?

Availability of VG-10 in the U.S. may have a lot to do with lack of demand for it by knifemakers like yourself here in the U.S.

I know Boker and Kizer use VG-10 quite a bit but those are the ones made in Taiwan and China respectively. Kizer uses VG-10 & G-10 exclusively in their quality and value-priced Vanguard Series which are liner locks going for $50-$90.