52100 Military

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The Mastiff
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby The Mastiff » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:03 pm

I agree that these knives at the hardness mentioned will have people noticing a bit more abrasive wear resistance and more difficulty sharpening because of the higher wear resistance. The result of higher hardness compared to the rc 58-59 knives mentioned above.Will that be a problem to those of us with ceramic or diamond systems? Not for me. I like sharpening higher hardness steels and feel they respond to my stones with better feel and crisper cuts. Naturally you have to keep it in perspective in comparing anything including steels and edge response.

Though not for everybody to be honest for those who like that aspect of high performance this one should be a jewel and will be a reference standard just as VG 10, S30V, S90V and S110V have been in the past. A noticeably different kind of performance just as Super Blue, Cruwear or 3V was compared to S30V and S90V . If this does well on coarse rope it will be only because it is very sharp and strong. There aren't going to be vanadium carbides around to rely on so learn to sharpen well. :)

Joe

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Bodog » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:08 am

If done right 52100 will make some eyes pop open. I have no idea what Spyderco will do as far as its heat treatment is concerned. Multiple cycles for grain refinement? Fast quenching? Cryo? Probably not. It'll be a solid performer though, no doubt. I don't know if it will be as impressive as cruwear knives doing the same amount and type of work.

The devil is in the details for all of this.

Here's some well done low chromium steels going head to head with Bark River's 12c27. The low chromium, high hardness steels blew away the 12c27 knife. Again, though, the devil is in the details which aren't stated.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ters/page3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ankerson's test of well done, thin CruForgeV (not terribly different than 52100) had it standing toe to toe with an S30V military cutting rope. The military is thicker behind the edge but also has a greater carbide volume that's supposed to increase performance. All other things being equal, the thin 52100 will cut as long as thicker S30V (not that the military is thick). It will also cut easier because it can be made thinner without worrying about gross failure. It can also be made harder because of the increased toughness and the steel can handle it. It will also be much easier to sharpen for two reasons, much thinner edge and lower carbide volume.

I have a feeling that the harder 52100 millie will just about equal the softer cruwear millie in performance while being much easier to sharpen with crappy equipment on the fly. Take cruwear at 62 and 52100 at 62 and make them the same thickness behind the edge with very fine grain structures for both I think cruwear/z-wear/pd1/spectrumwear would outperform 52100 in draw cutting. But 52100 would be much cheaper to obtain and work while being damned good in its own right.

I agree with Joe, this military run should be a standard setting knife. Only time will tell if it will be.

I was hoping that Spyderco would set another industry milestone by doing what hasn't been done before with production run knives: specialized heat treatments not found in any other production companies' toolboxes. This 52100 run would've been the perfect template.

Bluntcut is doing some different heat treatment regimens and is trying some of these different steels and testing the hell out of them. He's saying he's gotten a stable edge (not brittle/weak/chippy or whatever you want to call it) with 52100 at 65+ RC with an 8 dps angle with a 10 dps microbevel. From what I've seen I have no reason to doubt him. He normally grinds his blades very thin. That's a pretty impressive statement.

As with all this, though, you can only do so much with the basic chemistry of steels. Now it seems that it's more about how it's processed from the foundry to the machinist to the heat treater to the consumer buying the right steel for the job. Spyderco has the steel game on lockdown. Some decisions I question but that's not anyone's call other than spyderco, like why put this steel in this knife or whatever.

What'd be cool is if spyderco would up the heat treatment game for production knives and/or work with the foundries to get more niobium or nitrogen (for different reasons) used in knife steels. Microscopic images of the steel used published with the knives. Listing final carbide volumes after hear treatment. Showing detailed images of the edges after testing. Things like that would up the game across the board. Become the basic reference for all things "knife steel." Website traffic, IMO, would explode. The edge-u-cation section of the spyderco catalog is a great start.

Specifically what is martensite, pearlite, retained austenite, and cementite? Exactly what does nickel do? Exactly why is niobium something to be considered? Exactly why does Rockwell hardness matter in some cases while being an unreliable final number? Have these things laid out on the website that anyone can quickly reference at any time. Let people see the differences between S125V and 52100 and explain why this one might be better than that one. Truly inform the buyers. Become a repository of factual, trustworthy information that no other company offers. Explain a TTT graph. Explain what cryo does and does not do. Have different makers, heat treaters, foundries, and metallurgists write up the articles. Not in some obscure technical book written for metallurgists but in an easy to digest format in order to bring the public up to speed.

Instead of having a new (or uncommon) steel come out and no one knows what the benefits are, like the 52100 sprint, people could read and find out what the steel's strengths and weaknesses are and make a truly informed decision.
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:54 am

Bodog wrote:If done right 52100 will make some eyes pop open. I have no idea what Spyderco will do as far as its heat treatment is concerned. Multiple cycles for grain refinement? Fast quenching? Cryo? Probably not. It'll be a solid performer though, no doubt. I don't know if it will be as impressive as cruwear knives doing the same amount and type of work.

The devil is in the details for all of this.

Here's some well done low chromium steels going head to head with Bark River's 12c27. The low chromium, high hardness steels blew away the 12c27 knife. Again, though, the devil is in the details which aren't stated.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ters/page3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ankerson's test of well done, thin CruForgeV (not terribly different than 52100) had it standing toe to toe with an S30V military cutting rope. The military is thicker behind the edge but also has a greater carbide volume that's supposed to increase performance. All other things being equal, the thin 52100 will cut as long as thicker S30V (not that the military is thick). It will also cut easier because it can be made thinner without worrying about gross failure. It can also be made harder because of the increased toughness and the steel can handle it. It will also be much easier to sharpen for two reasons, much thinner edge and lower carbide volume.

I have a feeling that the harder 52100 millie will just about equal the softer cruwear millie in performance while being much easier to sharpen with crappy equipment on the fly. Take cruwear at 62 and 52100 at 62 and make them the same thickness behind the edge with very fine grain structures for both I think cruwear/z-wear/pd1/spectrumwear would outperform 52100 in draw cutting. But 52100 would be much cheaper to obtain and work while being damned good in its own right.

I agree with Joe, this military run should be a standard setting knife. Only time will tell if it will be.

I was hoping that Spyderco would set another industry milestone by doing what hasn't been done before with production run knives: specialized heat treatments not found in any other production companies' toolboxes. This 52100 run would've been the perfect template.

Bluntcut is doing some different heat treatment regimens and is trying some of these different steels and testing the hell out of them. He's saying he's gotten a stable edge (not brittle/weak/chippy or whatever you want to call it) with 52100 at 65+ RC with an 8 dps angle with a 10 dps microbevel. From what I've seen I have no reason to doubt him. He normally grinds his blades very thin. That's a pretty impressive statement.

As with all this, though, you can only do so much with the basic chemistry of steels. Now it seems that it's more about how it's processed from the foundry to the machinist to the heat treater to the consumer buying the right steel for the job. Spyderco has the steel game on lockdown. Some decisions I question but that's not anyone's call other than spyderco, like why put this steel in this knife or whatever.

What'd be cool is if spyderco would up the heat treatment game for production knives and/or work with the foundries to get more niobium or nitrogen (for different reasons) used in knife steels. Microscopic images of the steel used published with the knives. Listing final carbide volumes after hear treatment. Showing detailed images of the edges after testing. Things like that would up the game across the board. Become the basic reference for all things "knife steel." Website traffic, IMO, would explode. The edge-u-cation section of the spyderco catalog is a great start.

Specifically what is martensite, pearlite, retained austenite, and cementite? Exactly what does nickel do? Exactly why is niobium something to be considered? Exactly why does Rockwell hardness matter in some cases while being an unreliable final number? Have these things laid out on the website that anyone can quickly reference at any time. Let people see the differences between S125V and 52100 and explain why this one might be better than that one. Truly inform the buyers. Become a repository of factual, trustworthy information that no other company offers. Explain a TTT graph. Explain what cryo does and does not do. Have different makers, heat treaters, foundries, and metallurgists write up the articles. Not in some obscure technical book written for metallurgists but in an easy to digest format in order to bring the public up to speed.

Instead of having a new (or uncommon) steel come out and no one knows what the benefits are, like the 52100 sprint, people could read and find out what the steel's strengths and weaknesses are and make a truly informed decision.

You aren't comparing apples to apples here comparing customs with standard production knives, example being the CRUfordge vs the S30V Military. The standard Military is usually in the .025" to .028" behind the edge while that Custom is .012" so there is a rather large difference in geometry and a 2 Point difference in HRC hardness on top of that (60 vs 62).

Now comparing apples to apples would be this:

CPM 10V - 1180 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 63 RC - .012" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
CruForgeV - 300 - Bluntcut Custom - 62 HRC - .012" behind the edge

Notice they are all customs and all within .005" of each other behind the edge so we are more inline here for a direct comparison.

As a side note I still have that CruFordge V knife here and I own that 10V Darrin Sanders knife, the Crufordge V blade won't do anything that the 10V knife won't that I personally saw in testing.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Bodog » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:33 am

Ankerson wrote:

You aren't comparing apples to apples here comparing customs with standard production knives, example being the CRUfordge vs the S30V Military. The standard Military is usually in the .025" to .028" behind the edge while that Custom is .012" so there is a rather large difference in geometry and a 2 Point difference in HRC hardness on top of that (60 vs 62).

Now comparing apples to apples would be this:

CPM 10V - 1180 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 63 RC - .012" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
CruForgeV - 300 - Bluntcut Custom - 62 HRC - .012" behind the edge

Notice they are all customs and all within .005" of each other behind the edge so we are more inline here for a direct comparison.

As a side note I still have that CruFordge V knife here and I own that 10V Darrin Sanders knife, the Crufordge V blade won't do anything that the 10V knife won't that I personally saw in testing.
Thanks for the additional details. When it comes to cutting stuff like rope carbide content unquestionably dominates. Other strengths remain to be seen until unbiased testing comes to the fore. Most people are unwilling to subject their knives to stresses that may cause huge chips or outright break the blade, especially when they have thin grinds. All there really is is subjective data.

The whole point of my long, rambling post was that small batch, quality heat treatments generally produce better knives than simply following the industry standard in huge batches, especially when the geometry and steel match the intended use. I hope someone high up in spyderco sees that and finds a way to push some of these high quality treatments out in small runs, like sprint runs and the mule team blades. I have no idea how "mass" production 52100 will work out as it has generally been used by small batch and custom makers. At least I've never used any.

It wasn't anything about high carbide volume steels being terrible or inappropriate. I still stand by my thoughts that mass production 52100 at 62 RC will be just about equal to mass production cruwear at 59 +/- RC, all other things being equal, in all areas except pure, straightforward draw cutting and corrosion resistance. Except that the 52100 will be easier to sharpen on the fly with less than good sharpening equipment.
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:42 am

Bodog wrote:
Ankerson wrote:

You aren't comparing apples to apples here comparing customs with standard production knives, example being the CRUfordge vs the S30V Military. The standard Military is usually in the .025" to .028" behind the edge while that Custom is .012" so there is a rather large difference in geometry and a 2 Point difference in HRC hardness on top of that (60 vs 62).

Now comparing apples to apples would be this:

CPM 10V - 1180 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 63 RC - .012" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
CruForgeV - 300 - Bluntcut Custom - 62 HRC - .012" behind the edge

Notice they are all customs and all within .005" of each other behind the edge so we are more inline here for a direct comparison.

As a side note I still have that CruFordge V knife here and I own that 10V Darrin Sanders knife, the Crufordge V blade won't do anything that the 10V knife won't that I personally saw in testing.
Thanks for the additional details. When it comes to cutting stuff like rope carbide content unquestionably dominates. Other strengths remain to be seen until unbiased testing comes to the fore. Most people are unwilling to subject their knives to stresses that may cause huge chips or outright break the blade, especially when they have thin grinds. All there really is is subjective data.

The whole point of my long, rambling post was that small batch, quality heat treatments generally produce better knives than simply following the industry standard in huge batches, especially when the geometry and steel match the intended use. I hope someone high up in spyderco sees that and finds a way to push some of these high quality treatments out in small runs, like sprint runs and the mule team blades. I have no idea how "mass" production 52100 will work out as it has generally been used by small batch and custom makers. At least I've never used any.

It wasn't anything about high carbide volume steels being terrible or inappropriate. I still stand by my thoughts that mass production 52100 at 62 RC will be just about equal to mass production cruwear at 59 +/- RC, all other things being equal, in all areas except pure, straightforward draw cutting and corrosion resistance. Except that the 52100 will be easier to sharpen on the fly with less than good sharpening equipment.
What it really will come down to is this.

How people will use their knives, that's actual use in the end.

How will a 52100 Military perform?

Nobody really knows because nobody has one in hand yet to test so it's all a guess at this point.

It's hard to speculate what something will do at an unknown hardness range and geometry in a knife that nobody has seen.

Even less how it might compare to the standard S30V etc Military.

Most people just aren't going to trash $400 - $600+ custom knives just because, I test pretty hard personally, but I keep things within reason taking into count the intended use of the knives.

If someone breaks or seriously damages a knife from a top custom maker doing something stupid with it they don't what to have that conversation with that maker trying to explain how they damaged it because it won't be roses and chocolate.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Bodog » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:48 am

By the way Jim, I have those blades coming now. Should be interesting, especially the rex 121 blade. I'm gonna leave them without a handle so you can test the hardness if you want.
Last edited by Bodog on Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:49 am

Bodog wrote:By the way Jim, I have those blades coming now. Should be interesting.
Let me know once you get them, shoot me a photo or something. :cool:

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Popsickle » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:48 am

Am I the only one who thinks 52100 with a patina is going to look awesome with CF scales?

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby HarleyXJGuy » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:59 am

Popsickle wrote:Am I the only one who thinks 52100 with a patina is going to look awesome with CF scales?
Nope.
On my radar: 110V Military, Police 4 and some sweet Rex 45 Military action.

Newest Spydies: S90v Ti Military, Pacific Salt and a special Kiwi.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby JNewell » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:03 pm

Did anyone have trouble getting the online pre-order from KnifeCenter to work?

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby Evil D » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:53 pm

I plan on having this one reground pretty much as soon as I get it. Can't wait.
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby SpyderNut » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:36 pm

I'll be in for this one, more than likely... ;)
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Re: 52100 Military

Postby bdblue » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:15 pm

Popsickle wrote:Am I the only one who thinks 52100 with a patina is going to look awesome with CF scales?
I've seen the M4 Military with patina. It looks OK but not awesome. I have an M4 Manix 2 with black G10 and patina and it looks kind of ordinary to me.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby farnorthdan » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:59 pm

I have a M4 Millie and it is developing a mild patina but very slowly and I cut up a lot of fruit with it, I really dont want to force the patina, kinda want it to develop naturally.
Happy to be part of this great forum and group of down to earth spyderco addicts, Thanks Sal and gang.
My Grails: Lum Tanto folder sprint, Sprint Persian(red), Captain, Manix 2 (M4), SB MT, PM2 M390, CF dodo, Manix2 (CF S90V),Manix2 XL S90V, Zowada CF Balance Rassenti Nivarna, Lil' Nilakka, Tuff, Police 4, Chinook 4, Caly HAP40 52100 Military, S110V Military, Any/All PM2 & Military sprints/exclusives I can get my grubby hands on :) :spyder: :) :spyder: :)

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby awa54 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Bodog wrote:If done right 52100 will make some eyes pop open. I have no idea what Spyderco will do as far as its heat treatment is concerned. Multiple cycles for grain refinement? Fast quenching? Cryo? Probably not. It'll be a solid performer though, no doubt.
on this topic, does the pic in the 2016 catalog look like the blade is sporting a differential HT to you? there is no mention of the blade being a laminate construction...
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby SpeedHoles » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:25 pm

awa54 wrote:
Bodog wrote:If done right 52100 will make some eyes pop open. I have no idea what Spyderco will do as far as its heat treatment is concerned. Multiple cycles for grain refinement? Fast quenching? Cryo? Probably not. It'll be a solid performer though, no doubt.
on this topic, does the pic in the 2016 catalog look like the blade is sporting a differential HT to you? there is no mention of the blade being a laminate construction...

I believe it was mentioned elsewhere (possibly by TazKristi) that the photo was a mistake and definitely does not have a lamination line like in the catalog photo...


And by the way, I hope this doesn't come out for another month so I can afford one by then! :eek:
Going back to Caly.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby farnorthdan » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:34 pm

Good to see this thread pop up again, reminded me of how excited I am to add this one to my millie collection. :)
Happy to be part of this great forum and group of down to earth spyderco addicts, Thanks Sal and gang.
My Grails: Lum Tanto folder sprint, Sprint Persian(red), Captain, Manix 2 (M4), SB MT, PM2 M390, CF dodo, Manix2 (CF S90V),Manix2 XL S90V, Zowada CF Balance Rassenti Nivarna, Lil' Nilakka, Tuff, Police 4, Chinook 4, Caly HAP40 52100 Military, S110V Military, Any/All PM2 & Military sprints/exclusives I can get my grubby hands on :) :spyder: :) :spyder: :)

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby elena86 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:51 am

Popsickle wrote:Am I the only one who thinks 52100 with a patina is going to look awesome with CF scales?
Meh...CF is kinda classy, at least in my mind, it doesn't go well with a patina.

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby awa54 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:24 am

SpeedHoles wrote:
awa54 wrote:
Bodog wrote:If done right 52100 will make some eyes pop open. I have no idea what Spyderco will do as far as its heat treatment is concerned. Multiple cycles for grain refinement? Fast quenching? Cryo? Probably not. It'll be a solid performer though, no doubt.
on this topic, does the pic in the 2016 catalog look like the blade is sporting a differential HT to you? there is no mention of the blade being a laminate construction...

I believe it was mentioned elsewhere (possibly by TazKristi) that the photo was a mistake and definitely does not have a lamination line like in the catalog photo...


And by the way, I hope this doesn't come out for another month so I can afford one by then! :eek:
It does look too pronounced and too even to be a temper line :( figured I'd ask though, since differential tempering is fairly commonly done with 52100. I imagine that implementing a relieved spine HT in a production knife would be challenging and costly.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

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Re: 52100 Military

Postby MacLaren » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:51 pm

For what its worth, I got my pre-order in today with Kinfe Center. They expect to have some by April/May.
I realize this doesn't by any means -mean that I'll be one of the first to get one, but from what she said, you do get to keep your place in line.
I just really hope to get one.


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