The MAP announcement

[can't freehand]

Not sure if this has been best to death, but when does the MAP policy take place and why is it happening?

I gotta say, not sure if this is why, but protecting retailers to protect your diversity doesn't make sense for a company as big as Spyderco: the demand is always there, so the retailers are always there. If some can't hang because of certain costs they can't shed that others can so as to lower the msrp even more, then they die, that's how the system is supposed to work, Spyderco makes the same money regardless.

And imposing the MAP to protect those retailers doesn't eliminate the cost: it just shifts it to the consumers. Why do I have to pay for another business's failure?

I can say for sure that if this is the case, I'll never purchase from the likes if Knifecenter again. They are no more "legitimate" than the small guy from Amazon and I can certainly say that nothing from knifecenter, no "intellectual property" or services has ever factored into my buying of anything.

[can't freehand]

BTW, I recently bought a Delica brand new for 36 dollars off Amazon. There's currently a new military for sale at $80.

That's all money the knifecenter cabal will never see. Even after the MAP, I will only do business with Amazon on principle alone: "legitimate" dealers, a lie, they're no more legitimate than anyone else, will never see my money.

[jimmyjohnjohn]

I relieve the reason why it's happening is some dealers' complaining. Some dealers, like GP Knives, operate in states which are not business-friendly (Illinois) and it's more expensive to operate there. Some, like Knife Works, operate in very business friendly states (Louisiana) where it's very cheap to operate. KW can then undercut GP's prices and sell more product.

The problem in this situation lies in the fact that it is in Spyderco's best interest to have a healthy number of dealers distributed around the country and essentially needs to have some dealers operating in states which are not business-friendly to satisfy the geographic distribution model that they have set up. Or that the dealers with whom they have built relationships happen to be located in business-unfriendly states and there is some level of loyalty and commitment to these dealers to support them on behalf of Spyderco.

The solution, to ameliorate GP's predicament, is to set a MAP that is considered fair, offers everyone a chance to make a decent living and is close to what the dealers located in business-unfriendly states need to charge to stay in business.

This is pure speculation on my part and I only chose KW and GP because they offer the most extreme examples in this situation. I could be completely wrong, but I tried to follow the money and think like a business person.

[yablanowitz]

Be advised that the knives you buy from Amazon on the cheap may not be genuine Spyderco. Many people have gotten fakes there. Buying counterfeits doesn't help anyone but the theives.

[endgame]

.we need to help eachother out at times that is the right thing to do and can only make us stronger.I do not want to see a buisiness so under cause another companies is selling the product so cheap.I believe spyderco is better in my eyes for doing this make it fair.

[HammerHill]

I posted this over on bladeforums the other day but I think it's worth sharing it again here: What Knife Dealers Say About Spyderco's New MAP Policy

[dubya3]

I didn't like hearing about the new MAP last week either but I don't think it's fair to jump all over it until we see if/how much the prices actually change for us. It might not increase street price but it may force A to sell at the price B does and although you will pay more if you're used to buying from A, I doubt it'll be much and it'll still be a fair price more than likely. I guess it doesn't affect me much as all I see is the Nirvana and the new Millie exclusives

[TomAiello]

I like it.

Honestly, I'm pretty disillusioned with Amazon.

[can't freehand]

Be advised that the knives you buy from Amazon on the cheap may not be genuine Spyderco. Many people have gotten fakes there. Buying counterfeits doesn't help anyone but the theives.

10 of my 11 Spyderco's came from Amazon. All were as advertised, all came from different dealers, none were counterfeits.

Ebay is where the counterfeits hide. For whatever reason, maybe corporate culture or user culture, Amazon just has better quality control.



and I also wanted to add, about your distribution getting "bottlenecked" and becoming victim to the whim's of your restricted dealers. Some say that after running everyone out, Amazon would then take advantage of Spyderco and jack up their margins. That frankly doesn't make sense to me given how incidental Spyderco in itself is to Amazon and how infinitely more valuable Spyderco is as a gateway for their fans to the entire website's business, thus turning them into Amazon fans.

What I'm going to say is that the exact opposite is now happening with the MAP. Instead of the boogeyman Amazon dictating your pricing policy, it's a perverse cabal of hypocrites using the myth of the Amazon boogeyman to make you beholden to their own operations. Retailers are still directly regulating your pricing. That's why in cases of small business like this, you always go with the market.

[can't freehand]

I didn't like hearing about the new MAP last week either but I don't think it's fair to jump all over it until we see if/how much the prices actually change for us. It might not increase street price but it may force A to sell at the price B does and although you will pay more if you're used to buying from A, I doubt it'll be much and it'll still be a fair price more than likely. I guess it doesn't affect me much as all I see is the Nirvana and the new Millie exclusives

The MAP is a price floor. Considering that Amazon regularly sells models at 40+ percent off, it will basically establish a universally constant price across the catalog.

The Endura for example will go from $58 to $70. That is really hard on the eyes. And of course, the most expensive the knife, the greater the difference. I bought a Police for $108, it will now cost $150, screw that. I shouldn't be forced to do business with people I don't want.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Are you saying the new MAP will cause prices for Spyderco knives to go up, when it comes to we consumers?

Because from what I read, the MAP change will not actually prohibit a retailer from selling a Spyderco for a minimum price, it will just ask them to not advertise that lower price, correct?

Example: If "Joe Knife Shop" has an Endura and wants to sell it for 60 dollars, vs 70 that others sell it for, he can still do that, but if he is a Spyderco dealer, he won't be able to advertise the 60 on his website. Is that how this works?

[Blerv]

I thought sometime in early 2016.

Frankly if you want to buy a Delica or Endura you do NOT want to buy it off Amazon. The amount of money you are saving is minimal on a $50-60'ish knife compared to the risk since they are commonly faked designs.

I bought a Gayle Bradley Folder this weekend on Amazon because my favorite dealers had sold out. I took a risk but checked-out the place that is selling them (some golf/camping store with great ratings). That and I have never seen a fake GB Folder.

I think the rule is the same for eBay in that knowing your dealer is paramount. With Amazon it's just a bit more convoluted to figure out and sometimes not possible. Again, risk management is the name of the game. Find a dealer that you like and do 90% of the shopping there and flip the coin only when necessary.

[jabba359]

Seeing as how most of the dealers I buy from mark down about 35-42%, this won't materially affect my spending at all. Cutlery Shoppe usually knocks off 42%, so going to 40% only changes pricing by a couple bucks. Pretty much everywhere else is in the mid to high 30's, so are already within pricing compliance of the 40% limit.

The only time I buy at greater discounts is when slow movers get knocked down to 50% off (or more), but any store can use the "add to cart to see price" tactic to offer additional, non-advertised discounts on those occasions.

[Blerv]

Seeing as how most of the dealers I buy from mark down about 35-42%, this won't materially affect my spending at all. Cutlery Shoppe usually knocks off 42%, so going to 40% only changes pricing by a couple bucks. Pretty much everywhere else is in the mid to high 30's, so are already within pricing compliance of the 40% limit.

Exactly friend. This changes really nothing for me either.

More impacting to my purchase history year per year is Spyderco's trend towards using truly cool materials (which tends to nudge up the MSRP). That really just makes me cheap and boring though than them "expensive". :p

[dubya3]

I didn't like hearing about the new MAP last week either but I don't think it's fair to jump all over it until we see if/how much the prices actually change for us. It might not increase street price but it may force A to sell at the price B does and although you will pay more if you're used to buying from A, I doubt it'll be much and it'll still be a fair price more than likely. I guess it doesn't affect me much as all I see is the Nirvana and the new Millie exclusives

The MAP is a price floor. Considering that Amazon regularly sells models at 40+ percent off, it will basically establish a universally constant price across the catalog.

The Endura for example will go from $58 to $70. That is really hard on the eyes. And of course, the most expensive the knife, the greater the difference. I bought a Police for $108, it will now cost $150, screw that. I shouldn't be forced to do business with people I don't want.

Well, you're kind of speaking for yourself here because I personally know many people that won't touch amazon to buy knives from, myself included. I've paid $65-$70 multiple times for an endurance off bladehq or KW and am fine with it.

[can't freehand]

I didn't like hearing about the new MAP last week either but I don't think it's fair to jump all over it until we see if/how much the prices actually change for us. It might not increase street price but it may force A to sell at the price B does and although you will pay more if you're used to buying from A, I doubt it'll be much and it'll still be a fair price more than likely. I guess it doesn't affect me much as all I see is the Nirvana and the new Millie exclusives

The MAP is a price floor. Considering that Amazon regularly sells models at 40+ percent off, it will basically establish a universally constant price across the catalog.

The Endura for example will go from $58 to $70. That is really hard on the eyes. And of course, the most expensive the knife, the greater the difference. I bought a Police for $108, it will now cost $150, screw that. I shouldn't be forced to do business with people I don't want.

Well, you're kind of speaking for yourself here because I personally know many people that won't touch amazon to buy knives from, myself included. I've paid $65-$70 multiple times for an endurance off bladehq or KW and am fine with it.

Ok, good, you're speaking for yourself :)

[this_is_nascar]

Never had an issue ordering from Amazon. Amazon is the only place I can order in the morning and have the item that same evening, for less than $10, for many items.

[dubya3]

Never had an issue ordering from Amazon. Amazon is the only place I can order in the morning and have the item that same evening, for less than $10, for many items.

I have had multiple issue's buying on amazon when buying gun parts/accessories. I've never ordered a knife there but I won't order anything there again after my experiences. Paying the extra couple bucks to a legit knife shop online is worth the peace of mind and waiting 2-3 days to get the knife isn't an issue for me. Many times, if they have the knife I want, I'll even buy from my local brick and mortar and pay bladehq price plus 7.125% sales tax simply to support my local store. There's more to it than saving $5-$10, to me anyway.

[awa54]

Are you saying the new MAP will cause prices for Spyderco knives to go up, when it comes to we consumers?

Because from what I read, the MAP change will not actually prohibit a retailer from selling a Spyderco for a minimum price, it will just ask them to not advertise that lower price, correct?

Example: If "Joe Knife Shop" has an Endura and wants to sell it for 60 dollars, vs 70 that others sell it for, he can still do that, but if he is a Spyderco dealer, he won't be able to advertise the 60 on his website. Is that how this works?

Sellers who choose to sell below MAP can still do so, but you will see a "too low to show price" or "place item in cart for price" message, instead of a dollars and cents price on the item purchase page, which makes quick price comparison one step more difficult. This is common for electronics and cameras, many of the big companies in those industries enforce MAP.

My experience with MAP in the electronics industry is that it's a nice gesture from a manufacturer (toward smaller dealers) and it even slows the descent of a brand from premium high-end to discounted mass market goods, but as many companies acquire a larger (discount buyer) buyer base, they can't resist the promise of larger volume (and less overhead from dealing with small retailers), at which point they firmly commit to a race to the bottom... Most of these companies try to create high-end sub brands to get back the margin and product quality that they gave away to sell more (cheap) product, but those sub brands tend to be niche oriented and account for only a small part of overall sales. I don't think MAP is a cause of this, rather it's a symptom of the company trying to work through a business model transition.

If Spyderco put a round hole on the Byrd knives, rolled them in with the basic Chinese liner locks and let those sell to any distributor/retailer at any price, then restricted dealership and pricing on the higher value part of the line they'd be where many audio electronics makers arrived in the late '90s. I hope that however this works out, Spyderco keeps making the high quality product and doesn't give in to chasing nothing but volume/profit. From what I have seen, I doubt there's much risk of that!

Personally I'm not a fan of MSRP that is unrealistically high and promotes heavy discounting... Give the dealers a fair profit margin in MSRP, 50 points/key is a great place to start, then the "discount" that larger dealers can offer doesn't look so impressive and the smaller dealers' prices don't seem so out of line anymore. Of course many smaller dealers may be getting product through distribution instead of direct, if they are too small to be direct with Spyderco, then it's their decision to buy at the higher distributor prices and try to make ends meet while selling for less margin than their larger competitors.

[gaj999]

We'll see how it pans out. I'd love to know how it affects overall sales and profit. I don't see it helping sales and the costs will be higher. As to MAP itself, I wonder why they carry on with the charade? MAP will be the de facto MSRP. Why not just call it that and be done? Maybe it's like healthcare, you put out a ridiculous MSRP so that everyone gets a big discount. But they do it because the government and the insurance industries are squeezing them. Who's squeezing Spyderco? When I see a crazy MSRP, I immediately lose interest in a knife, even when I know I can probably get it for half of that if I'm patient. I just choke at the "price". I can't believe that I'm the only one ... Seems like a lose-lose proposition for Spyderco.

Gordon