Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

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Bodog
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#21

Post by Bodog »

Got an email. It's a pretty canned response telling me they've not experienced this issue with PPTs and that I need to send it in with $5 for return shipping. That's not including the whole schpiel talking about broken tips and sharpening and all that which my pictures clearly show aren't an issue.

I asked specifically about the rust underneath the TiCN issue. I got a response mainly about sharpening and whatnot. Sounds like it's setting something up to simply say that it's not their fault and that they will return the knife to me on my own dime. Well thank you for making me spend money for something that can be inspected for free.

This kind of warranty work is frustrating. Hearing something like this would be refreshing: "Russ, that's odd. We havent seen something like that before. Based on the photos it's obvious you haven't abused the knife. Send it in and no matter what we find you'll get a good knife back. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. You have nothing to worry about. We'll take care of this without making you spend an extra $10 to $20 bucks for something that's likely our fault based on the photos you included. You put your faith in us and we'll put our faith in you just the same. If we find there's been obvious abuse or something that cannot be covered by your warranty, we'll contact you for instructions on how to set up return shipping."

I don't know. I guess I may be too demanding with this stuff. I bought the knife for $140. I was happy. If there's something wrong due to manufacturing errors should I be forced to pay an additional 10 to 20 bucks just to get a knife that's what it's supposed to be? I'm just thinking out loud. Please correct me if I'm out of line.
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sbaker345
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#22

Post by sbaker345 »

Bodog wrote:Got an email. It's a pretty canned response telling me they've not experienced this issue with PPTs and that I need to send it in with $5 for return shipping. That's not including the whole schpiel talking about broken tips and sharpening and all that which my pictures clearly show aren't an issue.

I asked specifically about the rust underneath the TiCN issue. I got a response mainly about sharpening and whatnot. Sounds like it's setting something up to simply say that it's not their fault and that they will return the knife to me on my own dime. Well thank you for making me spend money for something that can be inspected for free.

This kind of warranty work is frustrating. Hearing something like this would be refreshing: "Russ, that's odd. We havent seen something like that before. Based on the photos it's obvious you haven't abused the knife. Send it in and no matter what we find you'll get a good knife back. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. You have nothing to worry about. We'll take care of this without making you spend an extra $10 to $20 bucks for something that's likely our fault based on the photos you included. You put your faith in us and we'll put our faith in you just the same. If we find there's been obvious abuse or something that cannot be covered by your warranty, we'll contact you for instructions on how to set up return shipping."

I don't know. I guess I may be too demanding with this stuff. I bought the knife for $140. I was happy. If there's something wrong due to manufacturing errors should I be forced to pay an additional 10 to 20 bucks just to get a knife that's what it's supposed to be? I'm just thinking out loud. Please correct me if I'm out of line.
I'm pretty sure they either copy and paste parts of the reply or just have a standard "legal" disclaimer. Send it in, they will take care of you. Or else alert Sal directly. Spyderco has a bit of a goodwill warranty, that is, they are very careful about what they promise to cover but typically cover nearly anything. If they sent it back with a "probably your fault" message I would be VERY surprised.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#23

Post by Cliff Stamp »

While it is trivial to pick out papers that seem to argue that coatings can offer corrosion resistance advantages ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9302005786" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) care has to be taken to understand that the results are sensitive to :

-how the coatings are being applied (there are many methods)

-how the steel is hardened which depends on the method of coating

For example if the steel is hot tempered to allow a hot coating application then it could easily produce a vastly compromised corrosion resistance.
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adam569
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#24

Post by adam569 »

I've only heard good things about spyderco customer service.Ive never had any personal experience though mine have been pretty much perfect. I would send it in it were my knife good luck.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#25

Post by Bodog »

Cliff Stamp wrote:While it is trivial to pick out papers that seem to argue that coatings can offer corrosion resistance advantages ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9302005786" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) care has to be taken to understand that the results are sensitive to :

-how the coatings are being applied (there are many methods)

-how the steel is hardened which depends on the method of coating

For example if the steel is hot tempered to allow a hot coating application then it could easily produce a vastly compromised corrosion resistance.
Fair and true enough. Without companies providing what they actually do, though, we SHOULD be able to expect that a company isn't doing something that compromises performance. Spyderco is better than that and we all know that or we wouldn't be on this forum. I don't believe that spyderco would compromise corrosion resistance of S30V in the name of a pretty black coating, do you?
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#26

Post by Cujobob »

I feel you on the shipping charges for a problem that isn't likely your fault. The problem is that policies have to be pretty clear cut. When someone has corrosion on M4 but doesn't want to believe it's due to their regional weather or care of the knife, it becomes difficult to convince them otherwise.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#27

Post by JAfromMN »

I'm surprised no one from spyderco has chimed in yet.

Send it in.

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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#28

Post by Bodog »

Cujobob wrote:I feel you on the shipping charges for a problem that isn't likely your fault. The problem is that policies have to be pretty clear cut. When someone has corrosion on M4 but doesn't want to believe it's due to their regional weather or care of the knife, it becomes difficult to convince them otherwise.

Yeah. I'm hoping that it won't be the case.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#29

Post by The Deacon »

Couple points.

The $5 check will only be used to cover return shipping if they determine the problem is not a warranty issue.

In some cases it may be easy to determine from a photo that a knife has been abused. Obvious things like dings in a blade spine or buggered screws. However, I'm not sure anyone can determine with certainty that a knife has not, for example, been left exposed to the elements just by looking at pictures of it.

You can argue that the boilerplate portion of their reply was unnecessary, but Spyderco did address your issue specifically when they noted that the damage was not something they'd encountered before, so they may very well consider it a warranty issue once they inspect the knife.

The Perrin PTT has been discontinued for a while, so if Spyderco deems your knife defective, they will probably be unable to replace it and will offer you a credit at SFO for its MSRP.

I doubt adding a ti-ni coating compromises corrosion resistance, it just doesn't increase it the way a lot of folks assume it does. Or, it could just be that the folks who genuinely need "light discipline" are willing to trade off a bit of corrosion resistance to get it. It's been the standard coating on Spyderco knives made in Japan for decades and there have been few, if any, reports of issues like yours.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#30

Post by Bodog »

[quote="The Deacon"

Couple points.

The $5 check will only be used to cover return shipping if they determine the problem is not a warranty issue.

Thank you, I didn't know one way or another.

In some cases it may be easy to determine from a photo that a knife has been abused. Obvious things like dings in a blade spine or buggered screws. However, I'm not sure anyone can determine with certainty that a knife has not, for example, been left exposed to the elements just by looking at pictures of it.

Very true, especially when even I'm not sure if I'm at fault.

You can argue that the boilerplate portion of their reply was unnecessary, but Spyderco did address your issue specifically when they noted that the damage was not something they'd encountered before, so they may very well consider it a warranty issue once they inspect the knife.

Very true and that's what I'm hoping for.

The Perrin PTT has been discontinued for a while, so if Spyderco deems your knife defective, they will probably be unable to replace it and will offer you a credit at SFO for its MSRP.

Yeah, that's what I figure, too.

I doubt adding a ti-ni coating compromises corrosion resistance, it just doesn't increase it the way a lot of folks assume it does. Or, it could just be that the folks who genuinely need "light discipline" are willing to trade off a bit of corrosion resistance to get it. It's been the standard coating on Spyderco knives made in Japan for decades and there have been few, if any, reports of issues like yours.[/quote]

I wonder if the Taiwan guys do it differently than Japan. Not a big deal, I'm sure the rate of occurrence is very low that's why I don't want to assume anything.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#31

Post by The Deacon »

Bodog wrote:I wonder if the Taiwan guys do it differently than Japan. Not a big deal, I'm sure the rate of occurrence is very low that's why I don't want to assume anything.
Could be, but there have been at least a few models with coated blades from Taiwan, and a few from Golden back before they switched to DLC.

Given that the damage on your PPT's blade does seem to follow the grind lines, I wonder if it could be possible that whatever belt or wheel was used to finish grind it before it was coated had just been used to grind a carbon or semi-stainless steel, retained traces of that steel, and transferred some of that more rust prone steel to the PPT blade.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#32

Post by palonej »

I sent a Spydie in when I wasn't sure if I had a warranty issue with the $5 for return shipping.
Turned out it was a warranty issue. They chose to replace the knife. I chose a replacement without the black coating.
They returned my $5 and credited my card the $10 for the original coated blade.
Send it in Dog.....I'm pretty sure it will get worse. Also, seeing how the rust is following the grind lines, I'd have to say that's a warranty issue.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
Joe
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#33

Post by Bodog »

palonej wrote:I sent a Spydie in when I wasn't sure if I had a warranty issue with the $5 for return shipping.
Turned out it was a warranty issue. They chose to replace the knife. I chose a replacement without the black coating.
They returned my $5 and credited my card the $10 for the original coated blade.
Send it in Dog.....I'm pretty sure it will get worse. Also, seeing how the rust is following the grind lines, I'd have to say that's a warranty issue.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
Joe
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#34

Post by palonej »

My pleasure bro!
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#35

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

It was mentioned that the coating, some have speculated, can lead to corrosion. How would this occur, exactly? There would be chemical changes at the inter-face between the coating and the blade substrate, like oxidation, and this would grow worse if not dealt with?
And if this is the case, what could the knife-user do to halt, or, stop this altogether?
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#36

Post by Cliff Stamp »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:It was mentioned that the coating, some have speculated, can lead to corrosion. How would this occur, exactly?
It has to be understood why stainless steels are in fact stainless. The main reason is that the chromium forms an oxide layer which prevents the iron from reacting with the oxygen in air, hence which stainless steels will tend to rust around spots of damage or irregularity (as the oxide layer is damaged/removed there).

The coatings applied to blades have any number of processes by which they are applied. They could for example deplete the chromium in the steel in reactions which make a more permeable coating to oxygen. As well, most surfaces, to make coatings easier/more durable, are often left extremely rough, often with even base level machining which reduces corrosion resistance. Further, some of the ways coatings can be applied require very hot temperatures and this means the steels are tempered at those temperatures and this can severely deplete the chromium again reducing the corrosion resistance of a steel.

Remember as a general rule, almost nothing is a free lunch, any choice to increase a property is almost guaranteed to compromise one or more other properties.

For example one of the most beneficial things you can do to steel is refine the austenite grain structure. This will increase the strength and toughness and wear resistance. However it adds cost, often significantly and it reduces the hardenability which if not dealt with can lead to severe loss of all properties. Dealing with the loss of hardenability forces harsher quenches which has a higher risk of quench cracking which can vastly compromise durability. Again, there is no such thing as an "ideal" grain size, there is just some big blend/compromise of properties that the maker/manufacturers tries to balance.

The question to ask in this case, or in general, is :

-Does that coating, as applied by that manufacturer on that line of knives, reduce/increase the corrosion resistance.

This is easily answered by any number of standard tests such as q-fog which are very inexpensive so start demanding some actual materials data from the makers/manufacturers. You then have a very clear performance statement by which you can both make informed decisions and demand warranty/guarantee support.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#37

Post by The Deacon »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:It was mentioned that the coating, some have speculated, can lead to corrosion. How would this occur, exactly? There would be chemical changes at the inter-face between the coating and the blade substrate, like oxidation, and this would grow worse if not dealt with?
And if this is the case, what could the knife-user do to halt, or, stop this altogether?
I could be wrong, and I'm not sure whether or not it's actually possible, but I think most people who say the coatings lower corrosion resistance believe that rust can creep underneath them from uncoated areas, like the edge, scratches, and bearing surfaces, the same way "body rot" spreads under paint on a vehicle, rather than thinking the coating process itself alters steel in a way that makes it less corrosion resistant.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#38

Post by Bodog »

The Deacon wrote:
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:It was mentioned that the coating, some have speculated, can lead to corrosion. How would this occur, exactly? There would be chemical changes at the inter-face between the coating and the blade substrate, like oxidation, and this would grow worse if not dealt with?
And if this is the case, what could the knife-user do to halt, or, stop this altogether?
I could be wrong, and I'm not sure whether or not it's actually possible, but I think most people who say the coatings lower corrosion resistance believe that rust can creep underneath them from uncoated areas, like the edge, scratches, and bearing surfaces, the same way "body rot" spreads under paint on a vehicle, rather than thinking the coating process itself alters steel in a way that makes it less corrosion resistant.

Ideally though paint is supposed to protect against corrosion by acting as a barrier to oxygen and moisture. It doesn't alter the steel but it is supposed to protect it. While it doesn't alter the steel itself it does serve to mitigate corrosion. If there's some kind of corrosion happening under the paint/coating that'd mean that some oxidizing agent was present under the paint when it was applied, maybe acidic oils from a person's hand, some kind of etchant or cleaning solvent, etc.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#39

Post by The Deacon »

Bodog wrote:Ideally though paint is supposed to protect against corrosion by acting as a barrier to oxygen and moisture. It doesn't alter the steel but it is supposed to protect it. While it doesn't alter the steel itself it does serve to mitigate corrosion. If there's some kind of corrosion happening under the paint/coating that'd mean that some oxidizing agent was present under the paint when it was applied, maybe acidic oils from a person's hand, some kind of etchant or cleaning solvent, etc.
My point was that paint's protection only lasts as long as the barrier it creates is intact. If a scratch or chip compromises it, or the owner decides to drill a hole to mount an antenna, then rust can creep under the paint. Use to happen with chrome too, when cars still had chrome trim. The coating on a knife is almost always compromised from day one, because the edge is sharpened after the coating is applied. The coating on contact surfaces like the cam surface on the blade tang of a midlock or slipjoint and the lock face on the tang of a Walker or RIL tend to wear more rapidly than the coating on the rest of the blade.
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Re: Rust on TiCN coated S30V?

#40

Post by alphaneuron9 »

Wondering if there is an update. I did not read the whole thread, however, it is my understanding the TiCN coating has - as one of its benefits - relative ease of complete removal and reapplication... may be worth investigating... although the stone wash idea to make it a "nimbus" finish (as bradford knives do) is a great idea.
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