SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

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Donut
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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Donut » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Why they are sharp could just be that they are using round wheels to grind them and that's the finish they get.

I wish I knew what the machine that grinds the serrations looked like.
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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Cliff Stamp » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:06 pm

Donut,

There are many ways to do them, a common modern method is super abrasive coated surfaces such as found in the "Shark Bite" which is a diamond coated serration wheel.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby elena86 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:22 pm

Hey , I just hope this is not turning into a campaign for changing the spyderedge pattern :confused: .I love my spyderedges as they are.Spyderedges in the actual pattern are one of the reasons I love Spyderco so much .As Cliff said ,the more pointy they are the more able to cut through hard materials.In fact , I am a fanatic in developing my sharpening skills to be able to keep the tips as pointy as possible.Those who like them more rounded , just round them off.Let's keep both worlds happy :) .
Last edited by elena86 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:40 pm

elena86 wrote:Hey , I just hope this is not turning into a campaign for chainging the spyderedge pattern :confused: .I love my spyderedges as they are.Spyderedges in the actual pattern are one of the reasons I love Spyderco so much .As Cliff said ,the more pointy they are the more able to cut through hard materials.In fact , I am a fanatic in developing my sharpening skills to be able to keep the tips as pointy as possible.Those who like them more rounded , just round them off.Let's keep both worlds happy :) .

Nah, Sal has said on similar threads that they've tested many pattern styles over the years and have found the current pattern to be the most effective.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby bdblue » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:43 pm

Here is a photo of damage to serrations on 2 different Enduras, FWIW:

Image

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:25 am

bdblue wrote:Here is a photo of damage to serrations on 2 different Enduras, FWIW:
Thanks for the interesting pic "bdblue" because that is one issue that needs to be discussed>>and that's the fact that even a Spyderedge is subject to damage if used wrong. A knife whether it be serrated, plain edged, combo edge are all subject to damage if you use them for anything other than what they are designed to be used for>> and that is for cutting chores of materials that can be cut without damaging the knife blade. I'm as big of fan of Spyderedges as anyone here but they have their limitations just like any other edged tool.

The pictures that Cliff put up of that other guy's serrated knives is interesting and I would like to try one of those if I ever get the chance. And that brings up why I pulled up this exhausted thread to begin with>> I'm wanting to talk about "Different Serration Patterns">>> Spyderco's existing patterns are great and well designed and with them pretty much being the king of serrated blades I'm wondering why they don't look into trying out different serration patterns.

It seems like many of the guys here like a rounded/wavy type of serration>> personally I find uses for both types of Spyderco serrations. But with that said I'm wondering why Spyderco doesn't try to stay way ahead of the game with newer serration patterns before someone else enters the market with something new? Or at least modify the current patterns they are using now. What do you alll think in regards to different serration patterns?

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Donut » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:22 am

Those damaged serration pictures, it looks like those things have seen a lot of use. The non-damaged section of the edges, at least on the top one, look almost completely rounded over.

I would say that a serrated edge is more likely to be damaged if something hard makes its way into the scallops. This is due to the chisel grind. If I sharpen one side at the 40 degree setting and the other side is at 0 degree, I'm left with a 20 degree inclusive edge. It gets protected by the serrations, but the edge itself is not so ready for harder work.
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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:17 pm

Donut wrote:Those damaged serration pictures, it looks like those things have seen a lot of use. The non-damaged section of the edges, at least on the top one, look almost completely rounded over.

I would say that a serrated edge is more likely to be damaged if something hard makes its way into the scallops. This is due to the chisel grind. If I sharpen one side at the 40 degree setting and the other side is at 0 degree, I'm left with a 20 degree inclusive edge. It gets protected by the serrations, but the edge itself is not so ready for harder work.
That's an interesting observation "DONUT">> I've sort of thought about that myself and I've wondered if serrations would be sharpened on both sides what differences it would make i.e. positive or negative? Like I've said before I've noticed that certain blade steels are better for Spyderedges than others. Even Spyderco themselves more or less admitted that ZDP-189 is not a good steel for Spyderedges. Oddly enough I've noticed that many blade steels like ATS-55, AUS-8, 440V and H-1 are all noted for not being superior for plain edges but seem to do very well with Spyderedges.

But again it's a great point you bring up because the geometry of the protruding parts of the serrated edge do seem to be vulnerable if put into contact with anything other than soft materials. And this is coming from a big fan of Spyderedges. I'm thinking that the more spikey type of serrations on the Japan made Spyders would even be more susceptible to damage rather than the rounded/wavy type of serrations.

Now for what it's worth I do a couple of passes with a 701 Profile on all my completed Spyderedges>> now whether or not it makes it more likely to be damaged I just don't know>> but it sure gives it sort of a toothy edge.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Donut » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:36 pm

It always seemed to me that tougher steels do better for serrations, probably because of the possibility for higher abuse.

I'm excited to find out how well S35VN does with a SE. It is supposed to be tougher than S30V.

I really do think that the physical protection of the edge with the protruding points... and the edge with a shallower angle are two major things that make a SE so admirable.


I'm thinking that I (or anyone else interested) should take a knife with a Serrated Edge, and just sharpen it normally on a sharp maker, give it a V microbevel sharpened at 40 degrees, and see how tough of an edge you get.
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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby sal » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:42 pm

Interesting discussion. We did research on serrations for several years before we actually made them on our knives. We did the research for our sharpeners, which we made before making knives. Mostly using microscopes to get a better look at what is going on. We tested in restaurants and industrial cutting applications.

First you need to understand that no two serrations will be exactly the same. The wear that occurs in grinding the steel with the formed wheel does affect the shape of the wheel, so each is a bit different than the blade processed before and after.

My personal preference is for a slightly rounded tooth for all purpose cutting. I use the SM and will often sharpen a new blade to get the desired effect

On our kitchen knives, which are mostly used on cutting boards, we make one tooth in three longer to protect the other two teeth.

sal

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Evil D » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:02 pm

sal wrote: On our kitchen knives, which are mostly used on cutting boards, we make one tooth in three longer to protect the other two teeth.

sal

I like the sound of that. Would that pattern not also be useful in a folder?

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:04 pm

[/quote]I like the sound of that. Would that pattern not also be useful in a folder?[/quote]

Only if you were using the folder on a cutting board. For kitchen knives, the majority of dulling is a result of the surface one cuts upon, not necessarily what one cuts, i.e., food. The extended tooth was developed to extend the wear of the serration, that is it must be worn down before the adjacent teeth come in contact with a cutting board. A brilliant use of Spyderco's study of serrated edges. Cudos, Sal.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:08 pm

sal wrote:Interesting discussion. We did research on serrations for several years before we actually made them on our knives.

My personal preference is for a slightly rounded tooth for all purpose cutting. I use the SM and will often sharpen a new blade to get the desired effect

On our kitchen knives, which are mostly used on cutting boards, we make one tooth in three longer to protect the other two teeth.
That's really interesting to hear what your personal favorite serration pattern Mr. Glesser. Because that tells us that you do indeed put a lot of thought into the performance for the end line user. I'm sure it's not an easy job to ascertain one certain serration pattern to perform on a wide range of cutting jobs. I know I'm going to sound redundant but I still think the best overall serration pattern that Spyderco ever put out was the one I have on my older, fully serrated, AUS-8 Catcherman model. I would so much like to see that one come back not only on an updated Catcherman with either H-1 or LC200N but would also like to see it again on some of the GOLDEN CO made models like the Military and Para2.

That particular pattern never snagged up on me and I also find it relatively easy to sharpen compared to the current Japan SE models>> and it's one of the only patterns I'm confident to sharpen with the 204 Sharpmaker without fear of deforming the factory original pattern>> because as you know I love using the 701 Profiles to sharpen most of my serrated Spyders as well as other serrated blades I've gotten over the years. That pattern in my opinion was the all time best for kitchen use as well as outdoor uses.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:12 am

N. Brian Huegel wrote:
I like the sound of that. Would that pattern not also be useful in a folder?[/quote]

Only if you were using the folder on a cutting board. For kitchen knives, the majority of dulling is a result of the surface one cuts upon, not necessarily what one cuts, i.e., food. The extended tooth was developed to extend the wear of the serration, that is it must be worn down before the adjacent teeth come in contact with a cutting board. A brilliant use of Spyderco's study of serrated edges. Cudos, Sal.[/quote]


The potential is always there I guess. When it comes to an EDC blade, especially one used for more utility type work, it's always possible that you'll be cutting against something.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Bill1170 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:58 pm

I assume that Spyderco serrations are chisel ground because grinding serrations into both sides would be much slower and more difficult than doing just one side. Registering the scallops on both sides seems non-trivial to accomplish. Nevertheless, I wonder if there would be any benefit to bilaterally symmetrical serrations? At the least, they wouldn't steer the blade to one side. What do people think?

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:01 am

Bill1170 wrote:I assume that Spyderco serrations are chisel ground because grinding serrations into both sides would be much slower and more difficult than doing just one side. Registering the scallops on both sides seems non-trivial to accomplish. Nevertheless, I wonder if there would be any benefit to bilaterally symmetrical serrations? At the least, they wouldn't steer the blade to one side. What do people think?
I'm glad they do them the way they do Bill. One of the reasons the se knives cut so well is the edge angle is so low. Think about it...around 15 degrees on the cut side and on the other side? maybe 2-3 degrees. You have less than a 20 degree inclusive edge. Of course they cut well. It also means that even as you do touchups on the sharpmaker the edge angle will stay fairly acute. At least the way I do it it will, since I microbevel the cut side at 20 degrees and the backside at near flat. I think we would see a significant decrease in cutting performance if they were to cut the serrations on both sides, due to a huge increase in edge angle.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Bill1170 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:41 am

Oh, I realize that the serrations would need to be ground at a shallower angle if they were bilateral, in order to maintain the same low included angle.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Bill1170 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:44 am

Perhaps the best argument for the current setup is that sharpness can be restored by grinding the flat side, a task much simpler than honing the scallops. I'm not advising this, but I've seen it done on powered equipment.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:05 pm

Bill1170 wrote:Perhaps the best argument for the current setup is that sharpness can be restored by grinding the flat side, a task much simpler than honing the scallops. I'm not advising this, but I've seen it done on powered equipment.
The Spyderco 701 Profiles are time consuming to use on each Scallop and the corners that fit into each set of Spikes>> but I find the 701 Profile kit to do the best job of sharpening most serration patterns of any tool I've worked with. They are also a great tool for PE Hawkbills, Recurves and to some extent they are nice to use on "Reverse S" blades as well. The 701 Profile kit I like better than the 204 Sharpmaker because it keeps the serrations looking close to what they looked like when they left the factory.

As far as the back side goes I do about two to three strokes off the corners of the Profiles to eliminate any burr that might of developed during sharpening. I'm always open to suggestions and always looking for even a better way to sharpen serrations and odd blade designs like the aforementioned.

Now I have heard debate as to whether or not you should file into the edge or away from the edge>> personally I file into the edge which to some extent does create a burr but it also seems to give you a really nice well honed edge as well.

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Re: SE...rounded points or sharp, and why?

Postby Donut » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:04 am

Maybe if we would have the longest tooth closest to the tip. (I drew my angles backwards on this image.) Then, for drawing cuts, the longest tooth towards the tip would protect the ones we use to cut with. I guess this depends on if you're push cutting or pull cutting.

Image
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