What steels take an extremely fine edge?

[sbaker345]

I know this is a function of carbide size, hardness, user skill etc. The sharpest knives Ive ever gotten was probably soft though not junk stainless. I got my PM2 to scary to me sharp. it'll shave, push cut printer paper effortlessly, though it'll still catch on magazine paper sometimes. But I know s30v is not the best steel to go for a razors edge with.

I'm kinda torn between zdp 189 or vg10. Edge retention doesn't matter as much as actually getting it there, I know i'm patient enough to get zdp sharp just not sure if its worth it. Also any other spyderco steels I'm over looking? CTS XHP, etc? Not sure exactly how fine of an edge they take. I know Super blue is king for a razors edge, but the sprint still in stock are priced around 130. And things tend to rust around here.

[Holland]

Superblue is the best from my experience. I found M4, xhp, vg10, and 1095 all take very fine edges with minimal work

[Holland]

Also H1!

[Ankerson]

Sharpness is basically how wide the actual apex is in nano Meters.

SOOOOO sharpening by hand and depending on what you use to sharpen with and how good you are etc matters more than the steel.

I found that I can get S110V just as sharp as I can simple low alloy steels, that's actual measured sharpness using an actual certified device to measure sharpness.

[sbaker345]

Sharpness is basically how wide the actual apex is in nano Meters.

SOOOOO sharpening by hand and depending on what you use to sharpen with etc matters more than the steel.

I found that I can get S110V just as sharp as I can simple low alloy steels, that's actual measured sharpness using an actual certified device to measure sharpness.

That was kind of part of what I was considering. Ease of sharpening is not the only factor, But its a consideration. I don't care how long it takes within reason, just the end result. The manix 2 in s110v was the next knife on my list, but I shudder to think of trying to get that to pop hairs with a sharpmaker. Unless the difficulty has been exaggerated

[Ankerson]

Sharpness is basically how wide the actual apex is in nano Meters.

SOOOOO sharpening by hand and depending on what you use to sharpen with etc matters more than the steel.

I found that I can get S110V just as sharp as I can simple low alloy steels, that's actual measured sharpness using an actual certified device to measure sharpness.

That was kind of part of what I was considering. Ease of sharpening is not the only factor, But its a consideration. I don't care how long it takes within reason, just the end result.

Comes down to what you use and actual talent and that is really the bottom line.

There is a real limit that can't be passed without having machines do it automatically etc.

And that can be actually measured.

[Surfingringo]

I would agree with Jim that WHO is sharpening is far more important that what steel he is sharpening, I would consider his opinion qualified too as I just received a knife back from him that he was testing. It was a Phil Wilson custom in m4. He put a 400 grit finish on that one that will bite into my beard hair and support the weight of the blade. I can get a knife to do that at a slightly higher grit and I can freehand finish a knife at 400 that will bite into the hair but just not quite that sticky. Kudos on that work Jim.


Anyway, as to the question, I do find it easier to get "novelty" edges with a steel like superblue. If you just want stupid sharp that will treetop arm hairs then you can do that with any of them. If you want an atom splitter that will break hanging hairs on contact then steel selection becomes a bit more important. As far as steels available in the Spyderco lineup, I find s30v to be a good balance between its edge retention and ability to take a fine edge.

[sbaker345]

Interesting, considering a vg-10 blade for time reasons then.

[dbcad]

It depends on what you mean by "extremely fine". You can get things sharp, than with care and polish get them push cutting "sharper". All steels can get extremely sharp, the real questions are how easily and how well it will hold that type of sharpness. You pick the steel depending on what you want

Sharpened an Opinel carbon steel blade (~1080) this weekend to a sub 25 angle inclusive, I don't think S30V would hold this type of sharpness as well. VG-10 is always a good compromise.

Charlie

[JD Spydo]

When I get out my Spyderco 302 Ultra-Fine Benchstone I can get ZDP-189 so sharp that you can effortlessly go through about any fruits, vegetables or meat. Now don't laugh at me on this next one but I've also had some pretty decent results doing VG-10 on Ultra-Fine stones as well.

There are so many good blade steels out there and I've not yet had a knife with Superblue steel but I do have a chisel made from it and it seems to take a really well defined edge as well.

[Ankerson]

I would agree with Jim that WHO is sharpening is far more important that what steel he is sharpening, I would consider his opinion qualified too as I just received a knife back from him that he was testing. It was a Phil Wilson custom in m4. He put a 400 grit finish on that one that will bite into my beard hair and support the weight of the blade. I can get a knife to do that at a slightly higher grit and I can freehand finish a knife at 400 that will bite into the hair but just not quite that sticky. Kudos on that work Jim.


Anyway, as to the question, I do find it easier to get "novelty" edges with a steel like superblue. If you just want stupid sharp that will treetop arm hairs then you can do that with any of them. If you want an atom splitter that will break hanging hairs on contact then steel selection becomes a bit more important. As far as steels available in the Spyderco lineup, I find s30v to be a good balance between its edge retention and ability to take a fine edge.

Thanks Lance. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

What you are asking is an actual materials property, it is called apex stability and has been measured in detail by Roman Landes. The highest apex stability is produced by :

-a very fine austenite grain size
-a high martensite percentage composition
-a high hardness martensite
-a small volume of MC type carbides or cementite

This means steels like 1095, W1, White, etc. .

As with all material properties, like corrosion resistance for example, it can be significantly effected by the heat treatment.

[sbaker345]

What you are asking is an actual materials property, it is called apex stability and has been measured in detail by Roman Landes. The highest apex stability is produced by :

-a very fine austenite grain size
-a high martensite percentage composition
-a high hardness martensite
-a small volume of MC type carbides or cementite

This means steels like 1095, W1, White, etc. .

As with all material properties, like corrosion resistance for example, it can be significantly effected by the heat treatment.

Any spyderco steels with particularly high apex stability?

Also with some more experimentation I was able to get both my s30v knives sharper than honestly I need, so while I am still quite curious, I might go for a tougher to sharpen steel than vg-10 or something else soft.

[Cliff Stamp]

Any spyderco steels with particularly high apex stability?

O1, Super Blue and M4.

Also with some more experimentation I was able to get both my s30v knives sharper than honestly I need, so while I am still quite curious, I might go for a tougher to sharpen steel than vg-10 or something else soft.

As with any property it isn't always the highest/most extreme which likely is the optimal choice as you have to find the balance of properties. It is however nice to have at least some experience with that type of steel just as a point of comparison.

[sbaker345]

Quick question since there are some steel experts here, vanadium carbides are supposedly harder than sharpmaker stones, Does that mean s90v and s110v would eat the stones and or not get sharpened extremely well?

[elena86]

Long story short : superblue.

[npad69]

if you really suck at sharpening.. superblue will make you feel like a champ!

[Cliff Stamp]

... vanadium carbides are supposedly harder than sharpmaker stones, Does that mean s90v and s110v would eat the stones and or not get sharpened extremely well?

The Sharpmaker rods are alumina which is softer than vanadium carbide however only a small part of the steel is vanadium carbide even in steels which are high carbide. Just think about using your hands to dig in the ground. Even though your fingers are softer than rocks you can still dig as the rocks are just moved out of the way. A similar thing happens when you grind into the knife, the vanadium carbides are just pushed out of the way. This is why you can even sharpen steels like 10V on Arkansas stones which are quartz which is softer still than alumina.

[Kirko]

01 Swedish tool steel ...... Also the VG10 Spyderco uses

[KevinOubre]

... vanadium carbides are supposedly harder than sharpmaker stones, Does that mean s90v and s110v would eat the stones and or not get sharpened extremely well?

The Sharpmaker rods are alumina which is softer than vanadium carbide however only a small part of the steel is vanadium carbide even in steels which are high carbide. Just think about using your hands to dig in the ground. Even though your fingers are softer than rocks you can still dig as the rocks are just moved out of the way. A similar thing happens when you grind into the knife, the vanadium carbides are just pushed out of the way. This is why you can even sharpen steels like 10V on Arkansas stones which are quartz which is softer still than alumina.

Cliff, wouldn't this apply to mostly coarse grits? I have not had great results getting a polished, mirror edge using the spyderco stones on steels like 10V, S90V, and S110V. At that point it seems like you need to move up to different abrasives to actually cut the carbides themselves to get the better polish. At least, this is how I interpret what I have seen from sharpening those steels.