Which Spyderco Knives Would You Like To See in K390?

[FDE]

I think I may have finally forgiven my K390 mule for cutting me so I'd go for a K390 Paramilitary 2.

[Ankerson]

I agree with you that Spyderco is built on the basis of performance first and I am not a collector myself. However, people seem to be interested in it for some reason and so that is why I would like to try it out for myself. I do not think that Spyderco is interested in making money off of fads but they do seem to like to give us what we want and that is how you make money afterall. I am not one of the ones who have been clamouring for it but it sounds like they are gonna use it in something so I figured why not suggest the models I prefer. That is my angle on it.

Anything they make in K390 is going to sell as there is a demand for it, that Mule Team sold out fast. :cool:

That will give people the opportunity to make up their own minds about it and that is the important thing. :spyder:

[Johnnie1801]

That will give people the opportunity to make up their own minds about it and that is the important thing. :spyder:

That's spot on, we can't judge a knife until it's been made.

Sal & Co are confirmed steel junkies that just happen to be in charge of the factory and I think they are willing to go in directions that others don't dare. I'm betting Sal has a ton of data on k390 and he knows just what he wants to do with it, so all we can do is just to try and influence him to put it in a model we want to buy :)

[Ankerson]

That will give people the opportunity to make up their own minds about it and that is the important thing. :spyder:

That's spot on, we can't judge a knife until it's been made.

Sal & Co are confirmed steel junkies that just happen to be in charge of the factory and I think they are willing to go in directions that others don't dare. I'm betting Sal has a ton of data on k390 and he knows just what he wants to do with it, so all we can do is just to try and influence him to put it in a model we want to buy :)

I am sure they do have a good idea what they are going to do with it. :spyder:

All we have to do is wait and see what that is and make up our own minds if we want that model or models. :)

[Johnnie1801]

I am sure they do have a good idea what they are going to do with it. :spyder:

All we have to do is wait and see what that is and make up our own minds if we want that model or models. :)

I'm hoping "models". :D

As per Sal

We also are planning to use K390 in several upcoming runs

[Evil D]

Manix 2 LW.

With linerless G10 scales.

Someone's been listening to my prayers. Now just a few more lol.

[FDE]

Manix 2 LW.

With linerless G10 scales.

Someone's been listening to my prayers. Now just a few more lol.

I'm on board as well!

[Ankerson]

I am sure they do have a good idea what they are going to do with it. :spyder:

All we have to do is wait and see what that is and make up our own minds if we want that model or models. :)

I'm hoping "models". :D

As per Sal

We also are planning to use K390 in several upcoming runs

That's positive. :) :cool:

[JD Spydo]

For a long time I've wanted to see the C-60 AYOOB and the C-58 JD Smith models in a newer/better blade steel. The Ayoob is so good in VG-10 I just know in my gut it would bode well with one of the supersteels.

Also I would like to see them do one of the Hawkbills and preferably the Spyderhawk in one of the newer/better blade steels as well. And I want all three of them available in Spyderedge and Plain edge both :cool:

[brick]

I feel like a high-end European steel would be a natural fit for one of the Maniago knives. We're already getting Pingo and Squeak sprints in Elmax, but maybe a run of G10 Urbans in K390? If not, how about that hypothetical UKPK sprint?

[Officer Gigglez]

The good old tried and true Endura and Delica would be cool by me in K390. Maybe utilize steel liners and G10 on the K390 Endura, with a thick blade grind, to make for a tough knife.

[shabowie]

What this does is reduced wear resistance at the gain of secondary hardening response. The benefit this has for the maker/manufacturer is that by increasing the hot hardness there is less of an issue with heat damage in grinding, more coating options become available, and it is in general more forgiving to lower tolerances in hardening. However from the point of view of an ELU it is hard to see why any of these are of benefit and thus why you would prefer it over 10V.

Three questions:

1. What is the definition of secondary hardening response?
2. Are you saying a knife in K390 would be more likely to have ideal performance on the very edge after being sharpened with a machine out of the box vs 10V but then afterwards offer no advantage to the user?
3. The reduction in vanadium content from what I've seen is very low, like ~10%, so would it be possible that it's easier to work with, grind heat treat, etc., such that the slight reduction in wear resistance from less V is well worth it from the manufacturer's POV?

Thanks.

[Cliff Stamp]

I think we should wait to judge the steel until we see what Spyderco do with it.

The steel has specific material properties, you can just look these up, Spyderco can't change that. Is there a demand sure, can Spyderco make money by leveraging that demand, sure. That really isn't why I choose Spyderco though, it is almost the opposite of it. What got me interested in Spyderco wasn't that they look at what was popular and made that, they actually innovated and created markets. They can do this in steels just like they can with opening devices, locks, and serrations.

As an example, I recently participated in a discussion with a maker who is looking to get a stainless steel with the same toughness as carbon steels. I provided a way to obtain ultra-fine grain in stainless through multiple cycling based on research done in UHC steels. The maker is experimenting with it now if they succeed will have a fairly unique product. That is the kind of thing that I would like to see Spyderco do with steels actually bring something to the industry vs just leveraging non-functional demands.

But at the end of the day, products in demand sell and I don't fault anyone for putting signed checks on the table for their employees. I am just noting what I would like to see and it isn't Spyderco moving towards being another ZT.

As for Bohler I read this in their online pdf for k390

Yes, now look at the actual materials data not what the person selling it says. If you go to a car dealer and ask if they car they have discounted that month is what you need then what is the likely answer? If you want to see something interesting, go look at the patents for both those steels and then for steels designed for actual cutlery. This is how they are designed. Marketing sheets often change dramatically once a new market opens and suddenly a steel is very suitable for that. Kyley Harris noted the significant difference in how Elmax was promoted first as a mould steel and then all of a sudden it was a high end knife steel on the data sheets once it started being used. Does this mean it isn't a decent knife steel, of course not, it just means the fact that someone selling something says it is suitable for the purpose they are selling it isn't overly surprising.

[Cliff Stamp]

1. What is the definition of secondary hardening response?

When a knife is tempered there are a number of reactions, some of them soften the steel, some of them have little to no effect on hardness, but one of them causes a dramatic increase in harness, that is called secondary hardening. It happens at ~500C and is due mainly to Molybdenum, Tungsten and Chromium. When these elements are in large enough amounts they not only can stop the steel from getting softer when it is tempered they can even make it get harder than it was as quenched. This is why high speed steels are high speed steels, they have very strong secondary hardening, so much so they retain hardness even if you run them so fast they get red hot in use .

2. Are you saying a knife in K390 would be more likely to have ideal performance on the very edge after being sharpened with a machine out of the box vs 10V but then afterwards offer no advantage to the user?

This argument has been made and it seems kind of sensible. If you are power sharpening then a HSS would be preferred because they are more resistant to heat. However Roman Landes argued against it because the heat generated in power sharpening is actually much higher than even what those steels can stand and there are other effects such as the expansion/contraction of the apex which likely would cause fracture damage.

My only point is basically this - take S30V, now imagine a new steel ks30V. It is just like S30V only it has slightly lower corrosion resistance. How would you react to someone offering a knife in kS30V? Now it isn't the case kS30V is a horrible steel obviously, it doesn't give you cancer if you use it. It doesn't even rust immediately, it just is like S30V aside from having lower corrosion resistance. Would you ask for kS30V though if S30V was available?

That's my only point, if someone started selling kS30V when S30V was available then it is kind of odd.

[shabowie]

Thanks Cliff. I edited in a third question, does it offer some advantage from the manufacturer's POV or are they just meeting an appetite on the part of the consumer for exotic steels?

[Cliff Stamp]

...does it offer some advantage from the manufacturer's POV or are they just meeting an appetite on the part of the consumer for exotic steels?

All of these steels, ATS-34, Elmax, m390, k390, etc. were designed for other things, Elmax for example is a plastic mold steel. As with all manufacturers, steel producers will explore other markets and produce information to sell to them once that market opens up. Now simply because a steel wasn't designed for cutlery doesn't mean it isn't a good cutlery steel. O1 for example was commonly used as a guage steel as it has high dimensional stability (minimal retained austenite after quenching) and very little distortion in quenching as it oil hardens which is less severe than water, and it is also deeper hardening than the W series. Now if you look at a guage it might not be obvious that is a good candidate for a knife, but O1 does make a decent knife steel because of other properties which are not why it is used for guages.

There are many reasons why a steel would benefit from a stronger secondary hardening. For a maker it allows a much less expensive hardening for one because hot tempering is much less cost than deep quenching (cryogenics). For industry, if you are running 10V and having problems with fatigue damage in use and softening then k390 might be an option because of the greater secondary hardening response. For knives used in hand though it is unlikely you would see this be of benefit as the odds you could heat the edge over 500C in cutting is pretty low. Again, the difference between these is small, it is just an odd difference to make given how 10V is promoted.

[bdblue]

Back to the original question I will propose the Manix 2 first. The Military and PM2 are obvious choices because they are so popular but I prefer the Manix 2 design if I am expecting to do some more demanding cutting. I think enthusiasts would buy whichever of these models are made, one limitation being that the Military is not legal in as many places.

[Philo Beddoe]

"10V is available, hence when you ask for k390 it shows a preference by definition, unless you make steel choices by random selection."

So Spyderco announces they are going to be making some models using k390..then someone starts a thread about which models we'd like to see with k390..a very logical thread IMO..then you claim because the OP didn't ask about any other steels you ask "why you would prefer it over 10V."

Did you even bother to read the OP? Nowhere was it said that they "prefer it over 10V. "

Your "logic" is IMO delusional at best..

"All steels are inferior to all other steels in various respects and superior to others"

That's the best thing about the Mule projects..it allows each of us to actually use these exotic steels in our own unique ways and unique environments with no outside biases or agendas..the k390 Mule has only been "inferior" in one area: corrosion..but in every other way it has not been "inferior" to any other steel..

[shabowie]

Did you even bother to read the OP? Nowhere was it said that they "prefer it over 10V. "

Your "logic" is IMO delusional at best..

Actually it seems like Cliff is just restating the concept of opportunity cost in a different manner.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Using a steel is a choice or preference over the other steels you didn't use. The maker makes a choice like this when they make the knife out of one steel and thus not others, the consumer makes a similar choice when they buy this knife instead of another one.

The OP had a quote of Phil Wilson discussing A11 class steels and Cliff was bringing up some specific observations about some steels in that class. What benefit to the manufacturer or end user does it provide, etc.

And why do you feel the need to start ad hominem attacks against people in the discussion calling people delusional? Are personal attacks not against the rules on these forums?

[shabowie]

For a maker it allows a much less expensive hardening for one because hot tempering is much less cost than deep quenching (cryogenics).

What would the cost benefits be if it was a cheaper heat treatment process and maybe a little bit better grindability? Would it be enough of a benefit per unit to pass on a knife to the end user with very close performance at a lower price point or is the cost difference negligible because of the scale involved?